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Thread: Crossing Talons Question

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    Default Re: Suggest a technique

    Question on Crossing Talons. (right to right wrist grab.)

    Anchoring your elbow rolling your wrist to the inside and reversing the grab to your opponents wrist. Stepping forward into a Left Neutral bo and striking just above the elbow with your left forearm...


    Without trapping the opponents initial grabbing hand what is to stop them from trapping your reversal, rolling their hand back around your wrist again, covering around the front of your left neutral bow and dragging you around to the ground with your re-trapped arm now locked at their wrist?

    Is there a reason we do not trap the opponents grab with the left hand while rolling the right wrist around the opponents wrist, then stepping forward into the left neutral bo and using the left elbow as a fulcrum to the opponents elbow?

    I have been meaning to ask this to one of my instructors.. but I recently hurt my back and haven't been to class since I thought about it.

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    Default Re: Crossing Talons Question

    This post was moved form the Suggest a Technique Thread, and given its own thread due to the nature of the post.

    Rob Broad
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    Default Re: Crossing Talons Question

    Ahh thanks.. sorry, I am still trying to navigate this forum.

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    Default Re: Crossing Talons Question

    I guess I'm not clear on how they are trapping you. What hand are they using to trap the left hand of the defender?

    Lamont
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    Default Re: Suggest a technique

    The crossing action, stepping across your body as you roll the wrist assists you. It makes it harder for your attacker to reverse the counter grab.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny
    Question on Crossing Talons. (right to right wrist grab.)

    Anchoring your elbow rolling your wrist to the inside and reversing the grab to your opponents wrist. Stepping forward into a Left Neutral bo and striking just above the elbow with your left forearm...


    Without trapping the opponents initial grabbing hand what is to stop them from trapping your reversal, rolling their hand back around your wrist again, covering around the front of your left neutral bow and dragging you around to the ground with your re-trapped arm now locked at their wrist?

    Is there a reason we do not trap the opponents grab with the left hand while rolling the right wrist around the opponents wrist, then stepping forward into the left neutral bo and using the left elbow as a fulcrum to the opponents elbow?

    I have been meaning to ask this to one of my instructors.. but I recently hurt my back and haven't been to class since I thought about it.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Crossing Talons Question

    I find it more effective to use a "large circle" than to anchor your elbow. Especially if you are a female defending against a male. By using a large cirlce and rotating clock-wise and stepping back with your right leg, you don't have to rely on brute strength. You can rely on physics. =)

    This action "pulls" the opponent off balance and sets them up for a standing arm bar once you place your left forearm across the tricpes and push down as you anchor their wrist (preferably in a goose-neck at this point) to your right hip.

    If you fail to gain control of your opponent's wrist, and they break the hold...mission accomplished. Follow up with something else. Techniques are unlikely to go "textbook" on the street so you must learn to adapt using principles such as grafting for instance.

    Hope this helps in some way =)
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    Default Re: Crossing Talons Question

    if you trap the right hand with the left before rolling your right hand, you'd be setting your opponent up for a wrist lock rather than an elbow lock. in the case of a right-to-right grab, you'll want to make sure you get your left thumb pushing against his hand (toward your hand), and roll your right hand up and over his forearm, coiling without grabbing~

    but that's not crossing talon! downside of the wrist lock described above is that it is easily counterable, if yur opponent senses what is going on before the lock is set... and the downside is you have both your hands tied up on only one of his... guess what he has free?

    that said, its not a bad sequence to flow into 'crossing talon' (elbow press) from the wrist lock if the opponent is able to dissolve the wrist lock.

    you may also want to consider the nature of the attack for 'crossing talons'... yes, your right wrist is being grabbed by your opponents right hand, but where is he going from there... think the differences between crossing talons and darting mace, and where the wrist lock may work and where (and why) it may not...


    pete
    Last edited by pete; 01-10-2006 at 01:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Crossing Talons Question

    Great question, me and another guy were struggling with just this exact situation, fighting each other the with cross wrist grab until I popped him in the elbow with my left palm, the counter grab was easy after that.
    What have I learned from this???

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    Default Re: Crossing Talons Question

    First of all, the attacker need to know how to do the "counter grab". Second, that's why it's so important to be quick and agressive, so that the attacker doesn't have the time to counter grab.

    It's a good point, you can sit there and counter grab each other all day. As Rob said, a good cross step can prevent this (make sure you step far enough), as well as pulling the attacker wrist across your body as you do this.

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    Default Re: Crossing Talons Question

    When we do CT, the left forearm, immediately after applying the arm bar, rolls with the arm to aid the counter grab in pulling his arm across your body. We want to pull him in hard, so that his ribs hit our hip. The left arm ends up almost in the position pete was talking about for his wrist lock, but it rolls off and flows into the outward elbow strike with no hesitation or repositioning. As others have said, your speed/flow and positioning make it unlikely that he'll counter grab.

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    Default Re: Crossing Talons Question

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    When we do CT, the left forearm, immediately after applying the arm bar, rolls with the arm to aid the counter grab in pulling his arm across your body. We want to pull him in hard, so that his ribs hit our hip. The left arm ends up almost in the position pete was talking about for his wrist lock, but it rolls off and flows into the outward elbow strike with no hesitation or repositioning. As others have said, your speed/flow and positioning make it unlikely that he'll counter grab.
    I saw this too late, but I totally agree with thedan.
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    Default Re: Crossing Talons Question

    I've practiced it both ways. The elbow leverage way (not strickly CT) graphs nicely into Obstucting the storm if your right leg steps back, up the circle
    This is how I wear my Kenpo suit. Still trying to learn how to put it on and it's a little wrinkled, but it is starting to feel pretty good on me.

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    Default Re: Crossing Talons Question

    thank you all for the responses. great feedback.

    I agree that with speed and correct application of the technique there is a small window of opportunity for counters. also in most cases I can overpower any attempts at counters (I'm a pretty big guy) but I never use power when I can apply technique... why waste the energy right?

    Also agreed that an inexperienced fighter is unlikely to execute a counter... This is a question for an opponent who knows as much as or more than me.. as they are always out there.

    Someone mentioned Obstructing the Storm I think.. and I agree.. if you are able to control the attacking arm and rotate it into a palm up position when it is anchored at your hip when you step into the left neutral, that yes that is a secure position because that locks the opponents elbow, shoulder, and forced their torso straight into the ground.

    My concern is that with body position at the initial attack, is it reasonable to assume that a defender of any body type will be able to take control of the attacking wrist and fully rotate it into a palm up position to have total control of the opponent?


    Pete, I have not seen darting mace yet so I cannot comment. I am well aware that someone grabbing your wrist like that and just standing there is not going to happen... heheh You will inevitably be pulled or turned .. but that is a discussion at another time.

    If the wrist lock is employed at the same time as the left neutral and reversal grab then it results in the locking of their wrist, elbow and shoulder putting you in the exact same position as CT but with one less option for the opponent as they can no longer let go of your wrist.

    Thedan, Excellent point about pulling him in.. I had forgotten about that part of it, (still learning the technique) his ribs by your hip would prevent the attacker rolling his body low to face you and attempt to drag you into a ground fight.


    Celtic, Large circle... you referring to the rotation of the wrist? Have you encountered trouble doing that with a larger opponent resisting? Do you ever use a stun prior to joint manipulation (quick kick to knees, jab to solar plexus etc...)?

    blindside, let me see if I can do this in Kenpo terms...

    UKE attacks with right hand crossing to grab your right wrist. Anchoring your right elbow you oll your hand inside and grasp his wrist , stepping forward into a left Neutral bow, and bracing his elbow with your left forearm.

    problem I see, if he simply lets go of your arm as you attempt to rotate, he may be able to reverse the grab as you did while his left hand traps your right onto his forearm while executing a ..... right front twist? facing you then stepping back into his own left neutral bow rolling your arm into a locked position resulting in him now being in the same arm bar of the first part of CT... cept now you are the one with your arm locked.

    This counter would not be applicable if the hand was initially trapped.

    Yes, both of your hands are being used... but by stepping into the Left Neutral bow you place yourself out of an effective position for his left fist. Also it is easy to let go with the trapping hand and execute the outward elbow if necessary.

    that said.. I am now not sure about that scenario because of Thedan's comments about pulling them close to your body as it would disrupt the movement path for a front right twist.

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    Default Re: Crossing Talons Question

    If you counter grab, step in and arm bar at the same time, I don't think he'll be able to recounter or escape. If he does, the technique is blown, but you are still in a dominant position to react from.

    As for large or small circles on the counter grab- I was originally taught the large circle. It was really good because you could whip his arm down hard into position. Even in practice, the results are impressive for the dummy. The problem is it is very possible he'll avoid the counter grab and escape, and you are at best in a neutral position with respect to advantage. The step in and arm bar are delayed about a quarter beat, and take longer to apply. There are also other counters available to the opponent. Also, if this grab is applied dureing a fight when you are in close or clinched, which is more likelythan a seperate attack, you'd have to step out first to do a large circle.

    The small circle is much quicker, much more positive and less likely he'll escape or counter, and can be better applied in a variety of situations, in my opinion. Especially for a smaller person, like me. So that's what I now use.

    But it would probably be good to try both. You could graft this from a large circle method any time you find yourself in the position. And like I said, the results can be impressive.

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    Default Re: Crossing Talons Question

    problem I see, if he simply lets go of your arm as you attempt to rotate, he may be able to reverse the grab as you did while his left hand traps your right onto his forearm while executing a ..... right front twist? facing you then stepping back into his own left neutral bow rolling your arm into a locked position resulting in him now being in the same arm bar of the first part of CT... cept now you are the one with your arm locked.
    OK, gotcha.

    Yes, they can do that, that is one of the easiest counters to the standing armbar, you just have to hit it early. Going for the wrist prevents the locking of elbow and is easily counterable as Pete said. This exact technique (as I am interpreting your description) shows up on Zach Whitson's Counterpoint video.

    There is another nifty counter if the defender doesn't do good leg checks, particularly if they step in front of the attacker, which is pretty common.

    The defender has you bent over with the standing armbar. Base out your left hand directly below your left shoulder. Pivoting on your hand sweep both legs to strike your opponents knees from behind, while pushing in the opposite direction with your captured arm. I should result in you sitting up, and your opponent lying on his back. Welcome to ground grappling.

    Lamont
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    Default Re: Crossing Talons Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindside
    OK, gotcha.
    The defender has you bent over with the standing armbar. Base out your left hand directly below your left shoulder. Pivoting on your hand sweep both legs to strike your opponents knees from behind, while pushing in the opposite direction with your captured arm. I should result in you sitting up, and your opponent lying on his back. Welcome to ground grappling.

    Lamont

    Ghaa... thats so rude.... heheh

    I do kinda miss ground fighting... took me a while bit I finaly got myself to stop using my size to gain advantage and stick to pure (or close to pure) technique... usualy resulting in me tapping out. LOL!!!

    ahhh choke and learn.

    the dan, wrist grappeling in close I usualy go for a tight circle waterfall down the center line. Thing is you almost always have to start with a stunning blow... I prefer headbutt.

    Not sure if the waterfall is used in Kenpo... it's really quite painfull.

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    Default Re: Crossing Talons Question

    Not sure what a "waterfall" is. You'll have to describe it.

    If it is a joint lock- left hand pins his right on your wrist as right cranes over his wrist, then drop your weight and push down- it is very painful, and is one of the moves that are infered or can be developed from this technique.

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    Default Re: Crossing Talons Question

    The Tracy System has a technique called Waterfall in teh Brown Belts, and it is very painful.
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    Default Re: Crossing Talons Question

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    Not sure what a "waterfall" is. You'll have to describe it.

    If it is a joint lock- left hand pins his right on your wrist as right cranes over his wrist, then drop your weight and push down- it is very painful, and is one of the moves that are infered or can be developed from this technique.

    yup, that sounds like it..

    basicly feels like every tendin in your forarm and wrist is being ripped appart... because it is...

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    Default Re: Crossing Talons Question

    I think we call this a "Figure Four" wrap, based on how the arms look when properly placed. Right hand grabs attackers right wrist, left hand wraps over his arm and grabs ahold of your right wrist as you move into the attacker. Nasty chin na hold.

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