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Thread: And then there was....

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    Default Re: And then there was....

    Hey Brandon, welcome to KT! Glad to have you here.

    I am curious about something...a lot of your moves show quite a bit of speed, however, many of the Kenpo techniques seem to reflect a likely movement of one's attacker once you hit them.

    Do you feel that your are gaining the same effectiveness from your techs even without the same dialogue? If so, may I ask why?

    I'm asking out of sheer curiosity...I'm personally more of an FMAist than a Kenpoist so I hope these questions aren't coming off as insulting.

    Thanks.

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    Default Re: And then there was....

    Quote Originally Posted by Carol Kaur View Post
    Hey Brandon, welcome to KT! Glad to have you here.

    I am curious about something...a lot of your moves show quite a bit of speed, however, many of the Kenpo techniques seem to reflect a likely movement of one's attacker once you hit them.

    Do you feel that your are gaining the same effectiveness from your techs even without the same dialogue? If so, may I ask why?

    I'm asking out of sheer curiosity...I'm personally more of an FMAist than a Kenpoist so I hope these questions aren't coming off as insulting.

    Thanks.
    While borrowed force contributes very much to your strikes, many people seem to think that kenpo "has" to rely on this. In truth, just as a boxer can keep pummeling you regardless of where you move, so it is true of kenpo.

    More important than borrowed force is keeping the opponent checked so they cannot retaliate.

    Obviously the clips show a lot of "overskill" as opposed to what is likely to occur for real, i.e. 1-3 strikes max. Ed Parker always said, "if three hits didn't do it, you're in trouble." But you don't train for the minimum, you train for the guy that will kick your ass and nothing will stop him.

    This is why the craze over technique extensions is silly. By the time you learn them you should be able to move spontaneously and therefore, would not need extensions. But since most people can't.....

    Another reason is that the techniques represent an ideal situation. Each added move increases the likelihood of something unexpected happening. So to go on for 10-15 moves in a set pattern is pretty silly.

    The techniques are only there to give you ideas and teach principles of motion, after you learn these, you can do what fits best. The unaltered EPAK crowd seems to forget this little tidbit from the Founder.

    I don't mind the questions at all. Fell free to ask all you wish.

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    Default Re: And then there was....

    Quote Originally Posted by MysticJedi View Post
    While borrowed force contributes very much to your strikes, many people seem to think that kenpo "has" to rely on this. In truth, just as a boxer can keep pummeling you regardless of where you move, so it is true of kenpo.

    More important than borrowed force is keeping the opponent checked so they cannot retaliate.

    Obviously the clips show a lot of "overskill" as opposed to what is likely to occur for real, i.e. 1-3 strikes max. Ed Parker always said, "if three hits didn't do it, you're in trouble." But you don't train for the minimum, you train for the guy that will kick your ass and nothing will stop him.

    This is why the craze over technique extensions is silly. By the time you learn them you should be able to move spontaneously and therefore, would not need extensions. But since most people can't.....

    Another reason is that the techniques represent an ideal situation. Each added move increases the likelihood of something unexpected happening. So to go on for 10-15 moves in a set pattern is pretty silly.

    The techniques are only there to give you ideas and teach principles of motion, after you learn these, you can do what fits best. The unaltered EPAK crowd seems to forget this little tidbit from the Founder.

    I don't mind the questions at all. Fell free to ask all you wish.
    Well said!

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    Default Re: And then there was....

    Thanks so much for your kind response

    Another curiosity...recently I saw some WC folks doing their thang on a 100lb Muay Thai bag (a long hanging bag, long enough to work kicks of all heights). They came to mind because of the similar focus on speed and compactness.

    Have you ever done techs on a Muay Thai bag or hanging bag? Just curious to see if it was to your liking or not.

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    Default Re: And then there was....

    Quote Originally Posted by MysticJedi View Post
    The techniques are only there to give you ideas and teach principles of motion, after you learn these, you can do what fits best. The unaltered EPAK crowd seems to forget this little tidbit from the Founder.
    not sure where you're getting your information, but EPAK techniques teach a great deal more than principles of motion - which I'd reason would be better called concepts of motion.

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    Default Re: And then there was....

    I was taught, and approach the maneuvers of Kenpo much like a game of chess where a winning strategy holds that it's important to to stay moves ahead of your opponent.

    Knowing the probable reaction of a given maneuver is key to formulating a logical follow up maneuver as well as gaining maximum effectiveness from your efforts.

    A 10 year old could pummel me with punches all day to no avail, however if using proper body mechanics as well as other practical applications of Kenpo principles that same 10 year old could increase the effectiveness of their strikes exponentially and actually do me some damage!

    I would say the techniques are there to reinforce the principles that make any maneuver work. Any bum can throw a punch, but some of us want to know how to get the most out of it. IMHO, it's about maximum efficiency and effect for the least amount of effort.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: And then there was....

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    not sure where you're getting your information, but EPAK techniques teach a great deal more than principles of motion - which I'd reason would be better called concepts of motion.
    And these concepts are... based on...

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    Default Re: And then there was....

    Edited to modify original post. Let me simply say ...

    wow...
    Last edited by sigung86; 07-26-2007 at 10:30 PM.

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    Default Re: And then there was....

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    not sure where you're getting your information, but EPAK techniques teach a great deal more than principles of motion - which I'd reason would be better called concepts of motion.

    Care to give some examples? Sure they give some ideas about what could be done in a given situation but this is for someone who doesn't understand the equation formula...a principle. So please give examples.


    As far as the Mauy Thai bag, kicking bags and kicking people are two different things. Bag's don't get hurt by penetration from a handsword, they require much more force to move the bag than to down an opponent. Parker always said to train on bodies. You aren't going to have appropriate angles on a bag except for heel kicks. I don't do roundhouse kicks with my shin much. For a thigh kick, sure but the angle doesn't match on a bag.

    You have to almost push a bag to get it to move, the material dissipates the force into the rest of the bag when striking it. Whereas a person will simple break.

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    Default Re: And then there was....

    Quote Originally Posted by MysticJedi View Post
    As far as the Mauy Thai bag, kicking bags and kicking people are two different things. Bag's don't get hurt by penetration from a handsword, they require much more force to move the bag than to down an opponent. Parker always said to train on bodies. You aren't going to have appropriate angles on a bag except for heel kicks. I don't do roundhouse kicks with my shin much. For a thigh kick, sure but the angle doesn't match on a bag.

    You have to almost push a bag to get it to move, the material dissipates the force into the rest of the bag when striking it. Whereas a person will simple break.
    I want to make sure I understand your position here. Are you saying that working on heavybags is somehow counterproductive?
    Michael


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    Default Re: And then there was....

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    I want to make sure I understand your position here. Are you saying that working on heavybags is somehow counterproductive?
    i dont think thats what he means. bags have their purpose, timing, being able to hit full contact for a longer period of time, endurance, etc.. but they won't teach you how a live body will react. and thats roughty.. maybe half of what we do, causing reactions in our opponent. not just pummeling away.

    theres not much available to fit a weapon to a target on a bag.
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    Default Re: And then there was....

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    I want to make sure I understand your position here. Are you saying that working on heavybags is somehow counterproductive?
    Not entirely. But one must understand that there is a distinct difference between bag work, which tends to be based on mass and muscle rather than speed and penetration, and hitting live people.

    In order to impress someone with your display of power on a bag you have to move the bag. The idea being that the more you move the bag, the more power you have. Trouble is that this is not entirely accurate.

    When we talk power in a strike, we are talking its ability to damage a target not its ability to move another set of mass. I want to cause hemorrhaging and breaks, not move the person away.

    Compare driving a car into a heavy bag a 5 MPH, it will move the bag but neither the bag nor a person would be hurt by this (unless you continue to drive and run them over of course).

    Now contrast that to shooting the bag with a handgun. While the bullet will punch a hole in the bag, it will do little to actually move it.

    So while bag work is good for muscle development, moving your mass into the target, forward projection, and hitting through an target...I don't think your ability to move a bag shows an accurate assessment of the power in a strike. A bullet does its damage by extreme velocity as do most strikes. All mass without adequate speed does is push.

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    Default Re: And then there was....

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    I want to make sure I understand your position here. Are you saying that working on heavybags is somehow counterproductive?
    I'll say that it often is. In my experience, hitting the bag can impede the development of the neuromuscular pathways you are trying to establish and create bad habits. This happens for a lot of different reasons: the bag doesn't respond like the human body; people tend to want to overpower the bag to make it move; people often starting hitting it too fast; and your body tends to brace itself differently. Ultimately, it is a supplemental training method of limited utility. This is also true of something like a makiwara.

    I'd also suggest it was developed as a training tool for boxing, which is a sport with purposes different from those most people are trying to achieve with Kenpo. I suppose you could find ways to overcome this training methods deficiencies, but what are you really gaining in return for all your hard work? Your time would be much better spent with a live body, as I firmly believe you alter your own physiology when you strike a bag, as compared to striking a human body. You can develop all the necessary speed and strength in much better ways and learn some Kenpo along the way.

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    Default Re: And then there was....

    Let's be a little more clear. Techniques don't teach principles or

    concepts. They incoporate them, but don't teach them. Techniques

    teach coodination and give us a template for application.

    Thank you Mr. Greg Hilderbrand.
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    Default Re: And then there was....

    Quote Originally Posted by MysticJedi View Post
    Not entirely. But one must understand that there is a distinct difference between bag work, which tends to be based on mass and muscle rather than speed and penetration, and hitting live people.
    yes and no, depending on how you train on the bag. I can move an 80 pound bag pretty well for someone my size, and I guarantee you, I am not just pushing it away. There is real penetration, with the potential for real damage if used on a human being. I've tested this on training partners who held a thick Yellowpages up to their torso and I punched thru it (with serious moderation of power). While the Yellowpages protected them from actual injury, their reaction to the blow spoke volumes.

    But I understand what you are saying, so thanks for that clarification.

    In order to impress someone with your display of power on a bag you have to move the bag. The idea being that the more you move the bag, the more power you have. Trouble is that this is not entirely accurate.
    I guess this hinges upon one's desire to impress others? Perhaps that is one element in how one might approach bagwork. If you focus on quality and don't worry about impressing the onlookers, then it isn't an issue.

    When we talk power in a strike, we are talking its ability to damage a target not its ability to move another set of mass. I want to cause hemorrhaging and breaks, not move the person away.
    OK, again I see your point, but training on the bag develops proper technique and conditioning so you don't injure yourself when you strike a real target. It's amazing how much it hurts when you punch or kick the bag with poor technique, or when you discover your wrists or ankles aren't as strong as you thought they were. Better to discover this and train to overcome it before you need it on the street.

    You need to have experience actually hitting something, and you cannot do that sufficiently on a training partner without injury. Air-kenpo doesn't cut it either. So a bag is a good alternative.

    Compare driving a car into a heavy bag a 5 MPH, it will move the bag but neither the bag nor a person would be hurt by this (unless you continue to drive and run them over of course).

    Now contrast that to shooting the bag with a handgun. While the bullet will punch a hole in the bag, it will do little to actually move it.
    true, but i'm not sure it's a good comparison. I mean, it's a little extreme on both ends: the car moving very slowly (which will actually hurt someone if they try to resist the push), vs. the speed of a bullet, which no human can hope to approach in physical technique. Again, I see your point, but given the extremes involved, I'm not sure it really translates quite so directly into training.

    So while bag work is good for muscle development, moving your mass into the target, forward projection, and hitting through an target...I don't think your ability to move a bag shows an accurate assessment of the power in a strike. A bullet does its damage by extreme velocity as do most strikes. All mass without adequate speed does is push.
    [/quote]

    Your ability to move a bag may, or may not, show an accurate assessment of the power in a strike. It depends on how one approaches the training. I don't think a blanket statement either way is really appropriate. Too much room for variation.

    As to the speed of a bullet, that is coupled with the mass of the bullet as well as it's small and compact size which enables it to penetrate. But a fist or a foot or an elbow are not a bullet, and cannot approach the speed of a bullet, so again I think it doesn't translate as smoothly and directly as you might think.

    It is easy to be very very fast, but lack any penetration, power, and ability to do real damage. Sometimes those quick and speedy techs have no teeth. If speed is the entire focus, it's easy to neglect the rest of it, and both are necessary. Working on the heavy bag is a good tool to develop this.

    I believe it is easy to overdo the heavy bag. I don't believe one needs to train on it every day, or for hours at a time, or with extreme intensity. and it does not replace the other aspects of training your art. But I believe it has a very valuable place in training, when done appropriately, and with regularity.
    Last edited by flying crane; 08-08-2007 at 07:12 PM.
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    Default Re: And then there was....

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew View Post
    I'll say that it often is. In my experience, hitting the bag can impede the development of the neuromuscular pathways you are trying to establish and create bad habits. This happens for a lot of different reasons: the bag doesn't respond like the human body; people tend to want to overpower the bag to make it move; people often starting hitting it too fast; and your body tends to brace itself differently. Ultimately, it is a supplemental training method of limited utility. This is also true of something like a makiwara.
    I think I've addressed most of these issues in my prior post, so I'll just make a couple short comments.

    Sure, a bag doesn't respond like a body. It isn't supposed to. It's a tool for developing the proper conditioning and power and technique to make sure you don't hurt yourself when you need to actually hit someone for real. After you've spent time training on a heavybag, you have experience with how to hit with authority, and without hurting yourself. That is really all it is for.

    I'd also suggest it was developed as a training tool for boxing, which is a sport with purposes different from those most people are trying to achieve with Kenpo. I suppose you could find ways to overcome this training methods deficiencies, but what are you really gaining in return for all your hard work? Your time would be much better spent with a live body, as I firmly believe you alter your own physiology when you strike a bag, as compared to striking a human body. You can develop all the necessary speed and strength in much better ways and learn some Kenpo along the way.
    Then don't work the bag like a boxer. Work it like a martial artist. Don't dance around it, punching it like a boxer trying to pummel an opponent into the canvas. Instead, take off the gloves and focus on individual strikes, and develop those specifically. Work combos from your techs on the bag, to see what it's like to actually hit something with those combos. You cannot strike your training partner with real force, so partnering is no substitute for this. You need to hit the bag, and you need to hit it like a martial artist. Sure, it's not perfect, but nothing is. We cannot train to fight by actually fighting. Not for REAL. To do so would send someone to the hospital every time. All we can to is approximate as well as we can. This includes working the heavybag, but not exclusively, and not to the point of ignoring other aspects of training. The heavybag should occupy an important place in training, alongside all the other tools and methods of training.
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    Default Re: And then there was....

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    Then don't work the bag like a boxer. Work it like a martial artist. Don't dance around it, punching it like a boxer trying to pummel an opponent into the canvas. Instead, take off the gloves and focus on individual strikes, and develop those specifically. Work combos from your techs on the bag, to see what it's like to actually hit something with those combos. You cannot strike your training partner with real force, so partnering is no substitute for this. You need to hit the bag, and you need to hit it like a martial artist.
    Well said. Punching the air just doesn't get the same effect. I vary my training quite a bit, focusing on different aspects. If on a bag, I isolate the strikes or combinations and focus on the fundamental power sources and alignment mechanisms that make those strikes effective. If on a body, I may slow things down and work full penetration to understand correct body manipulation. Alternately, I may increase the speed and focus on smooth delivery and correct weapon to target accuracy. As Brandon stated, things change when you start rocking the body, and they should. That is the essence of Impact Manipulation.

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    Sure, it's not perfect, but nothing is. ...all we can to is approximate as well as we can.
    One of the training methods I'd like to get back to is to suspend a heavy bag on a ring or pulley and then run it along a taught steel cable. The problems with heavy bags hung from a single point is that they swing (though I still use them for the reasons described above). The moving heavy bag allows you accelerate into the bag while hitting, not just bumping around a swinging object. Its great training, opens up the door to really effective stance work.

    Cheers,

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    Default Re: And then there was....

    Any kind of training can be overdone.

    I learned Boxing before I was taught Kenpo, so my opinions of the use of a heavy bag are biased. I'll admit that up front.

    I hit the heavy bag because it's the only thing I can hit hard.

    Very few people can hold boards correctly and consistently. (Besides boards don't hit back...haha.. ).

    There's no doubt that if you want to learn how to defend against a human being, you have to practice with one, or 1000...and more importantly with different body types (tall, stocky, etc.)

    It would be nice if we could hit all of our targets perfectly in a street confrontation, but it rarely happens that way.

    If you learn how to hit with power, then even if your strike wasn't perfectly accurate, it will create an impact that might slowdown or stop your opponent's attack, allowing you to escape, pick up a baseball bat, shoot them, etc..

    Also consider that most good fighters don't have a lot of techniques, they're just able to apply a few in many different situations.

    And as I've said before, they have the footwork to position themselves in a great position to use those few techniques.

    Please excuse the ramblings of a old, slow, bald, tattooed, ex-Marine.
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    Default Re: And then there was....

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    Then don't work the bag like a boxer. Work it like a martial artist. Don't dance around it, punching it like a boxer trying to pummel an opponent into the canvas. Instead, take off the gloves and focus on individual strikes, and develop those specifically. Work combos from your techs on the bag, to see what it's like to actually hit something with those combos. You cannot strike your training partner with real force, so partnering is no substitute for this. You need to hit the bag, and you need to hit it like a martial artist. Sure, it's not perfect, but nothing is. We cannot train to fight by actually fighting. Not for REAL. To do so would send someone to the hospital every time. All we can to is approximate as well as we can. This includes working the heavybag, but not exclusively, and not to the point of ignoring other aspects of training. The heavybag should occupy an important place in training, alongside all the other tools and methods of training.
    I have to agree here. I have yet to find anyone that would allow me to really focus on developing damaging techniques by letting me hit them full speed again and again. At least, not legally.
    Consequently, I'll just have to enjoy the fact that my heavy bag doesn't complain or want to sue me.
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