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Thread: Gathering Clouds

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    Default Gathering Clouds

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrlQZXqHiMc

    ok,

    here is what we did last night....

    enjoy...

    Carl

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    Default Re: Gathering Clouds

    I have never seen it with an elbow after the eye slice's. But it could deffinitely be there. Maybe you were just too fast but I did not see the chop after the first middle knuckle. Did you do it lol ? All in all looks pretty good to me. Didn't understand the foot work though.
    Last edited by parkerkarate; 04-04-2007 at 03:01 AM.
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    Default Re: Gathering Clouds

    i also did not see the chop after the middle knuckle strike..

    by the way it looks in the video, after the inward parry you are leaveing your self WIDE OPEN for a right back elbow to the face.. I also feel that it is verry choppy, it should be one constant fluid motion.

    i could be wrong but the way we do this one the middle knuckle strike comes with the parry as you slip the punch, rebound off your own body with the right into an outward chop to the floating ribbs. keeping your left up in contact with the right of your opponent as a check..

    once the chop lands we drive the opponenets right arm down with our left as we do a step through to the front with our right leg (checking the opponents right leg) and deliver the right elbow to the sternum/right sholder to position the body..rebounding backwards after the elbow to get the eye slice with the scoop kick..

    this is just how we do it. hope it helps.. try to keep it flowing!!

    keep up the good work
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    Default Re: Gathering Clouds

    I would just like to add that you've changed your format a bit. At first your vids were you doing the tech multiple times at a slower pace, now, they are really short and fast. Anyway you can "graft" your presentations? Do the tech a few times slow and then a few times at "street speed"?
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    Default Re: Gathering Clouds

    I've only had a quick look so no time to comment on tech, but it is really good to see the reactions of your training partner becoming a bit more realistic - withdrawing his punch to protect his body after the rib strike is much better than leaving it out there =)

    Keep posting!

    Alex

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    Default Re: Gathering Clouds

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael151 View Post
    I would just like to add that you've changed your format a bit. At first your vids were you doing the tech multiple times at a slower pace, now, they are really short and fast. Anyway you can "graft" your presentations? Do the tech a few times slow and then a few times at "street speed"?
    I'm with Mike!

    also: since you are presenting techniques that are altered (I've got NOTHING against that, at all) maybe you could write up a short synopsis, just telling us the sequence of basic moves you are using. It'd help us interpret what you're doing.
    But above all, one fast and one Slow would help out.

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    Default Re: Gathering Clouds

    BUT: if I were to go on nothing more than what I'm seeing here....

    #1: Thanks again for presenting your work!!! Seriously, few do and it's enjoyable to see.
    #2: I like the energy you apporoach your techniques with!

    Now...for the part you knew was coming
    "Constructive Criticism"

    A: Too much start and stop. It's sort of like the flow of the technique is segmented........do a bit, stop, restart, stop...etc. I'd like to see you executing in more of a continuous flow. Note: not at a flat rate of speeeeeed, but rather to not stop the action once it's begun. I think that'd be a BIG improvement.

    B: Too much disengagement. One of the things that I really LOVE about "Gathering Clouds" (which is one of my ALL TIME favorite techniques) is the fact that when you go in you really engage, you get IN there and stay in there ripping him up until you finnally disengage at the end....and even then, getting him on the way out. But in your clip you don't really stay close, you move toward him...then slip back and never really re-engage. If you were to stay closer I think you'd find some wonderful contact manipulation going on in there!!! But at the range you slip out too...it's not happening.

    C: w/out the chop (or hammer) after the middle knuckle....the 2nd "Segment" of motion is no longer connected to the first motion; makes for a "Gap" that wasn't there in the original. I'm all about filling in gaps!!
    When you fill that gap you achieve a greater connectedness in the motion, better flow, you overwhelm them because the strikes are coming faster than they can deal with, you disorient them because one strike FEEDS the next...etc.

    I don't want to innundate you with "Criticism".
    Please note, I'm only doing this in hopes that you'll consider these ideas of mine, nothing more. I like your skill in Kenpo, even if I see things that could be touched up.
    Hey.....nobody's perfect. (YET)

    Have a good one Carl.
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    Default Re: Gathering Clouds

    BUT: if I were to go on nothing more than what I'm seeing here....

    #1: Thanks again for presenting your work!!! Seriously, few do and it's enjoyable to see.
    #2: I like the energy you apporoach your techniques with!

    Now...for the part you knew was coming
    "Constructive Criticism"

    A: Too much start and stop. It's sort of like the flow of the technique is segmented........do a bit, stop, restart, stop...etc. I'd like to see you executing in more of a continuous flow. Note: not at a flat rate of speeeeeed, but rather to not stop the action once it's begun. I think that'd be a BIG improvement.

    B: Too much disengagement. One of the things that I really LOVE about "Gathering Clouds" (which is one of my ALL TIME favorite techniques) is the fact that when you go in you really engage, you get IN there and stay in there ripping him up until you finnally disengage at the end....and even then, getting him on the way out. But in your clip you don't really stay close, you move toward him...then slip back and never really re-engage. If you were to stay closer I think you'd find some wonderful contact manipulation going on in there!!! But at the range you slip out too...it's not happening.

    C: w/out the chop (or hammer) after the middle knuckle....the 2nd "Segment" of motion is no longer connected to the first motion; makes for a "Gap" that wasn't there in the original. I'm all about filling in gaps!!
    When you fill that gap you achieve a greater connectedness in the motion, better flow, you overwhelm them because the strikes are coming faster than they can deal with, you disorient them because one strike FEEDS the next...etc.

    I don't want to innundate you with "Criticism".
    Please note, I'm only doing this in hopes that you'll consider these ideas of mine, nothing more. I like your skill in Kenpo, even if I see things that could be touched up.
    Hey.....nobody's perfect. (YET)

    Have a good one Carl.
    Your Brother
    John

    Brother John,
    Thanks! Excellent points made. Let me comment on my thought process working with this student and this technique. I did make some modifications, so that I could achieve results that were best for me incorporating the above student’s ability, my ability, and the increase in speed within the technique.
    My student is learning to be a better dummy as I. His skill set in his ability to react accordingly to strikes within a technique is progressing nicely. However, I feel more time is needed before I start moving him in conjunction with striking him(it is coming !). I feel that the above is a skill which has to be learned over time and with great patience. I believe this skill is vital to being an excellent martial artist. Thus, my student's dummy skills as well as my desire to have excellent control contributed to the engaging and disengaging as well as the gaps in motion and so on…….COULD NOT AGREE MORE WITH YOU ON THIS POINT!

    Side Bar----This is why I would love to have a couple of "Zombies" in my garage. I would not mind and they would not matter....

    As for the chop within the technique, I just omitted this because I was playing with and concentrating on more of a penetrating eagle beak punch! Good eye! Good feedback!

    -Best Regards,
    Carl






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    Default Re: Gathering Clouds

    i also did not see the chop after the middle knuckle strike..

    by the way it looks in the video, after the inward parry you are leaveing your self WIDE OPEN for a right back elbow to the face.. I also feel that it is verry choppy, it should be one constant fluid motion.

    i could be wrong but the way we do this one the middle knuckle strike comes with the parry as you slip the punch, rebound off your own body with the right into an outward chop to the floating ribbs. keeping your left up in contact with the right of your opponent as a check..

    once the chop lands we drive the opponenets right arm down with our left as we do a step through to the front with our right leg (checking the opponents right leg) and deliver the right elbow to the sternum/right sholder to position the body..rebounding backwards after the elbow to get the eye slice with the scoop kick..

    this is just how we do it. hope it helps.. try to keep it flowing!!

    keep up the good work



    Good eye! Yes you are right in regards to the chop. The eagle beak penetrating punch/slash was enough of a shot and painful enough to keep my attacker from elbowing me in the face. As he tries to elbow me, he has to move closer. Thus, Carl, is going to take advantage of this, and really give him something to choke on. My above first shot(a check as well as a strike) will not only drop his elbow but will end the entire technique before it plays out. The attacker will fall to the floor gasping for air. But there is a trade off, you have to get close enought to smell his elbow and have the fortitude, skill, timing, perceptual speed, and striking power to make the above happen. If ya miss you are going to eat his elbow! Give your attacker false expectations and hopes so that he can give you himself entirely. Thus, in a different way, I still had him in checked...

    what ya think?
    Carl

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    Default Re: Gathering Clouds

    I'd love to comment but for some strange reason the camera didn't seem to pick up your moves as cleanly as your other clips. Kudos for having the mindset of playing with your moves and experimenting. Wait a minute....experimentation is expressly prohibited
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    Default Re: Gathering Clouds

    Thank you for posting ('_')

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    Default Re: Gathering Clouds

    Thanks for posting.

    You have good speed but I have a few suggestions:

    (1) a more committed attack
    (2) to rebound off the rake and execute the handsword strike (I didn't see
    any handsword?)
    (3) to check the opponent’s right arm down as step in with the right
    inward elbow
    (4) to make sure to check his right knee as you execute the inward
    elbow, thereby giving the opponent an angle of disturbance
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
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    Default Re: Gathering Clouds

    Quote Originally Posted by blfycdq View Post

    Brother John,
    Thanks! Excellent points made. Let me comment on my thought process working with this student and this technique. I did make some modifications, so that I could achieve results that were best for me incorporating the above student’s ability, my ability, and the increase in speed within the technique.
    My student is learning to be a better dummy as I. His skill set in his ability to react accordingly to strikes within a technique is progressing nicely. However, I feel more time is needed before I start moving him in conjunction with striking him(it is coming !). I feel that the above is a skill which has to be learned over time and with great patience. I believe this skill is vital to being an excellent martial artist. Thus, my student's dummy skills as well as my desire to have excellent control contributed to the engaging and disengaging as well as the gaps in motion and so on…….COULD NOT AGREE MORE WITH YOU ON THIS POINT!
    -Best Regards,
    Carl
    Mornin Carl

    Thanks for being receptive to my ideas and perception. The kind words are appreciated!
    I don't think I'm understanding you very well in what you wrote here. Are you saying that there are gaps in your tech and start/stop/start in your action because of the experience level and skill of the attacker?

    Also: if I may make another suggestion.
    You wrote:
    My student is learning to be a better dummy as I. His skill set in his ability to react accordingly to strikes within a technique is progressing nicely.
    my thought? If you're doing the technique correctly, don't worry about his ability to move, but your ability to move him. NOT that you're going to be laying him out or striking hard, not at all. Moves slowly, build the reaction....it doesn't take even quarter power or speed to do it. But the tech done in it's proper sequence will bring about the resulting response in his body wether he intends any action/reaction or not. That's THE beauty and purpose behind 'contact manipulation'...when you make contact (even LIGHT) you end up manipulating his posture & position without his voluntary compliance.

    In Gathering Clouds the parry can be done SHARPLY (against the point behind the elbow where the short head of the tricep muscle attaches to the bone, this causes a neurological reaction of them pulling their arm in the opposite direction from the pressure) ....which will shift their right rib-cage forward slightly setting up (FEEDING) the cutting/raking middle knuckle strike through the floating rib which will in turn cause the attackers spine to bow backwards with a slight pull and lift of the rib-cage.....THIS is a 'manipulation' to open the next target, which you chop or hammer with the right arm using the return or reverse motion of the right hand. This strike then sets them back down and causes the reverse reaction from the middle knuckle strike, because a strike to the kidney brings about a neurological response of pressing the pelvis down (bringing their weight down on their legs making it improbable for them to reposition or kick), sticking the chest out (disturbing their ability to strike with their arms) and bringing the back of the head back. (A strike with Effect keeps an opponent in Check)
    Without the chop, you've not accomplished this and are moving your face past his elbow (which on an even Slightly resisting opponent...won't be motionless unless checked or hampered in some way) without any protection and your hands BELOW his. Also: you're first strike should have (as I said) lifted him up some. People higher on their feet are less stable BUT more mobile. Without setting his weight forward and down again through the use of the chop....his whole body goes unchecked and is more able to move/reposition or take other action. (no strike = no effect = the attacker is not in check)

    When I think of "Running the Table" (Mr. Parker's favored metaphor comparing the chain of events in a well executed technique to the strategy in billiards) a few techniques really stand out in my mind to clearly exemplify this....and gathering clouds is probably my favorite. It's chocked full O' goodness in this way!

    AND: I'm all for tayloring your techniques in different ways, but only so long as they don't present more problems that the original version did, like introducing gaps in contact and manipulation.

    Here's my suggestion. When You are working a technique, don't worry about your students/friends...etc. ability to react to it, worry about FLOW and continuity of motion and filling in gaps. The dummy and their 'ability' to react is not the aim of the technique, but that you (the one executing the tech) move through the well constructed sequence of action and be able to manipulate them. SLOW IT DOWN, get the flow and continuity down tight...
    then worry about rippin through it.

    I LOVE that you enjoy some speed and rapid strikes, I think that's great.
    But I believe that theres a certain order or sequence that qualities like speed and power and form and fluidity should come in, and speed is NOT near the beginning. Form and fluidity are paramount. To give them up for speed doesn't serve to develop good technique.

    PLEASE know man, I don't mean to rip on you!!!!!! I seriously like your ability and your energy/enthusiasm!!! I wish MORE Kenpoists had that like you do. KUDOS!!!!!!
    My hope is that you take some consideration for what I and others (Like my brother James) say and digest them for what they're worth TO YOU.

    Hope I made some sense bro!

    KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!!

    Your Brother
    John
    Last edited by Brother John; 04-05-2007 at 12:34 PM. Reason: because I can't spell OR type worth a DARN some days.
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    Default Re: Gathering Clouds

    Thanks for posting, Carl.
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    Question Re: Gathering Clouds

    What system of kenpo do you employ? You seem to use alot of Tracy system technique names, but not all. I originally trained in a Tracy Studio, but with EPAK applications/terminology. The head instructor brought in Mr.Parker and some of his blk blts for seminars. To (presumeably)tune up our forms etc.. Anyway your clips caught my eye.

    1stJohn1:9

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    Default Re: Gathering Clouds

    An affiliation with the Jay T. Will line perhaps? I used to study under a hybrid that had Tracy influences due to Mr. Will's study with both he and SGM Parker. But, the "Gathering Clouds" I learned did not resemble the clip in this post.
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    Default Re: Gathering Clouds

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    An affiliation with the Jay T. Will line perhaps? I used to study under a hybrid that had Tracy influences due to Mr. Will's study with both he and SGM Parker. But, the "Gathering Clouds" I learned did not resemble the clip in this post.
    Yep. http://www.earthsilver.com
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    Default Re: Gathering Clouds

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoJuJitsu3 View Post
    Damn I'm good! LOL
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    Default Re: Gathering Clouds

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    Damn I'm good! LOL
    Yeah, you called that one! Got any lottery numbers in there?
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    Default Re: Gathering Clouds

    This is Ingmar Johansson doing this technique. It was just posted on youtube a few days ago.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Av9xwFNCSU

    I tried to embed it, but it just came up as html code.
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