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Thread: Touching

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    Default Touching

    Another question for all the instructors and school owners. How much touching is there in your school? With more and more sexual harassmanet lawsuits in the United States how much touching do you allow in your school
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Touching

    Touching?

    Lots of it, its hard to teach a martial art without it.

    We teach defenses against chokes, full nelsons, and bear hugs at orange and yellow belts, you need to "touch" to be able to these things.

    Of course the "touch" things gets a bit weird when you have (typically male) instructors saying "ok, now hit me in the groin.... no harder, like you mean it."

    I think if you take a professional approach most people take it fine, we don't run alot of seperate private classes so there isn't much opportunity for someone to take advantage of the situation. We have kicked an instructor out of the school for one incident, no warning, so its obvious we take the issue seriously.

    Lamont
    Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Kenpo Karate
    www.blackbirdmartialarts.com

    “He, who will not reason, is a bigot; he, who cannot, is a fool; and he, who dares not, is a slave.”
    ~William Drummond

    "This person is as dangerous as an IED."

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    Default Re: Touching

    I recently read in an article in MA Success Magazine the March 2004 edition where a school has taken the stand of "Do not touch soft flesh" When correcting students it is safe to grab hands, feet, elbow and knees.

    I know that I put a statement in my waiver to the students that they will be touched, and I re-iterate it with them before they sign it. So far only one person has not signed up because fo it, and that is fine, I would rather not have someone join than have to deal with a problem later.

    What are your takes on this issue?
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Touching

    That MA Success magazine was obviously referring to a karate/TKD type school, it would never, ever work grappling.

    And it is the grappling component of kenpo that will become the issue.

    When I do a lapel grab, where is my hand?

    When I do a full nelson, where are my hands before they get to the neck?

    When I do a bear hug from the front, where is my head?

    Etc.

    You can't learn a self-defense art without contact, and contact is touch.

    Usually around blue with our female students we will start introducing wrestling to desensitize women about really close contact and the positions they might wind up in if it goes to the ground. By that time we have a good feel for the student, and there is no question of trust for what the instructor is doing.

    I don't believe we have a statement like your in our waiver, it may not be a bad idea.

    Lamont
    Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Kenpo Karate
    www.blackbirdmartialarts.com

    “He, who will not reason, is a bigot; he, who cannot, is a fool; and he, who dares not, is a slave.”
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    "This person is as dangerous as an IED."

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    Default Re: Touching

    Here is the exact phrasing directly cut and pasted from one of my Reagistration Agreements.

    6. Student understands that during the course of instruction, the representatives of Dynamic Kenpo Karate and/or other students or authorized persons will be engaged in a course of conduct requiring physical contact and he/she gives full consent to such contact as is required by the training
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Touching

    We get our breasts grabbed.. we grab men's peaches.. It's par for the course.
    Obviously if anyone is doing it with a sexual reference.. that immediately is dealt with. Though in my years, I've never seen it happen. Male students are told to wear their cups, if they don't..
    I've seen some young men hesitiate with their female partners when doing a tec that involves a chest push.. most of the women just make a face and move the male's hand from their shoulder to their chest. Saying.. it's a Chest Push.. not a Shoulder Push.

    In all the 'Peach' tecs.. if you constantly aim for the thigh instead of the testicles.. if and when it comes to reality.. the tec may not work.

    There's always going to be lobbyists for .. Bad touch.. good touch.. but in this discipline.. good heavens.. it's all about Touch..

    Just my thoughts

    ~Tess

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    Default Re: Touching

    I'll never forget being an orange belt and practicing kicking set with the others. A buddy of mine got nailed in the face accidently. It didn't even bloody his nose. The funny thing was, when we got to his house afterwards, his wife made the comment, "I can't believe you got kicked in the face at karate class." WHAT!?

    What do people think karate/kenpo/marital arts is? IMHO, most people are victims of what I call "The Power Ranger Mentality." They think MA is a show, like ballet or something. They don't realize at the root, MA is about ensuring you leave a life and death situation as the one still breathing.

    Training in preparation for such an event requires contact. It defies all logic to think otherwise. I guess we can blame the trial attorneys for it. No offense to anyone that chooses that as their profession, but the U.S. is the most letigeous nation on the planet hands down. Frivalous lawsuits have permiated every aspect of modern life; from the cost of a hamburger to how much you have to pay for insurance. THANKS GUYS!

    So, better do like Rob there and make it part of your schools waiver. In truth, it won't necessarily prevent a lawsuit, but it will make it harder for them to get any money out of you.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Touching

    With the adults it is usually OK but we do have a few teens in the adult class. When we are doing drills that has the potential to make someone uncomfortable we switch people around.

    I started as a young teen and felt uncomfortable working with women on some things. They were nice and said don't be afraid to grab their gi.

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    Default Re: Touching

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoTess
    We get our breasts grabbed.. we grab men's peaches.. It's par for the course.

    ~Tess
    Really?? I understand the realism, but today that's asking for trouble.


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

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    Default Re: Touching

    Indeed.....it truely is a......"touchy subject." =)
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Touching

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    Really?? I understand the realism, but today that's asking for trouble.


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com
    Never had a bit of trouble in my time.. when we have our gi's on.. we lose our sexuality.. at least that's how it is in our school. We are sexless so to speak. I've 'deflated' many a female with punches and grabs.. if the male has no cup on.. oh well for him. There is absolutely nothing sexual in the touch.
    Can't see why that's asking for trouble.
    Since we are all adults. There is nobody in our school under 18.
    They are a close knit group and trust each other.

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    Default Re: Touching

    In today's society where litigation can be a way of life for some people, we as instructors need to make sure we limit any chance for frivulous lawsuits. I am not saying get rid of realistic training, just make sure we know that our students know that it is part of the training. We must do everything possible to protect ourselves, because it only takes the hint of inappropriate behaviour to hurt a school, and its instructors reputation. In some cases that can be enough to shut down the school and rob my students of a chance to learn.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Touching

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoTess
    Never had a bit of trouble in my time.. when we have our gi's on.. we lose our sexuality.. at least that's how it is in our school. We are sexless so to speak. I've 'deflated' many a female with punches and grabs.. if the male has no cup on.. oh well for him. There is absolutely nothing sexual in the touch.
    Can't see why that's asking for trouble.
    Since we are all adults. There is nobody in our school under 18.
    They are a close knit group and trust each other.
    All it takes is one quack student to change everything....that's all I am saying.


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

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    Default Re: Touching

    True.. I'm not saying this doesn't happen or couldn't happen.. it's good to keep an open mind and open eye to potential trouble.

    I'm saying, we are lucky to have such a group as we do. Our students hang out together and are friends.
    In other schools where there are a multitude of strangers working together only during training nights, well yes, I could see a potential for concern.

    It does only take one.

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    Default Re: Touching

    We have a few more ladies on the board now, and many new members. What are your opinions on this topic.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Touching

    *slimy Peter Lorre voice*

    I, I, rather like it... when I get touched.... in class.... it makes me feel like I am... being a good boy.. hee heeeee heee....

    *WAM*
    Ohhh thank you Master!!!!!

    */peter lorre*

    Sadly we do live in a litigation rich environment. Fortunatly I have never encountered annother student who has had a problem with the contact involved.. even when I was doing groundfighting with some of the women in my class... it was always more of a "Ohh crap she is about to break my arm.." or.. "ghaa... no..... blood... to...... brain... losing..... consc..." rather than ... *Berry White voice* "Ohhhhh yeaaaaa... lets get on the matt and make sweet ground fighiting baby..."

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    Default Re: Touching

    I guess I'm really lucky to have the students as we do.. just wanted to share a photo of normal.. well normal for us .. behavior..

    The puppy pile..

    And after the Internationals

    We are all very close~!
    Attached Images Attached Images
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    Default Re: Touching

    I can feel the love through my monitor.

    I can't see our school doing that though.... You'd have to know Bobby... or Eric....or James...they're not the "snuggling" type. LOL.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Touching

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    I can feel the love through my monitor.

    I can't see our school doing that though.... You'd have to know Bobby... or Eric....or James...they're not the "snuggling" type. LOL.
    CC thats not love... thats the onset of Diabites from how disgustingly sweet those pictures are...


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    Default Re: Touching

    Great pics.

    We don't do that, but everybody hugs everybody after my class. Sort of required. We hit each other all through class, so it's a way of saying 'no hard feelings'.

    As for the grabbing, I agre that it's not sexual. I have had to correct more than one man though who can't seem to find my gut. They just want to aim for something squishy. I corrected that with a few by wearing those plastic cup things. When they hurt their hands a few times, their aim improved dramatically.

    As far as the rest, I've had a lot of different instructors, different classmates, some grappling time, etc. and I've never once felt that any touching was in the slightest bit sexual, so I don't think it's a problem.

    At our school Christmas party, I was wearing the dress that's in my profile pictures and one of my regular students laughed and said, "I usually only see you in your gi. I sort of forgot you were a woman."

    --Amy
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