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Thread: Rolls & Falls

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    Default Rolls & Falls

    For the instructors here on KenpoTalk, do you teach rolls & falls to your students? At what level do you teach rolls & falls. If you don't teach them why not?
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Rolls & Falls

    For some reason they aren't in our official curricullum, but they are taught. Usually I run one class every two months or so to go over front roll, side fall, and back fall. Takedowns don't really start showing up in the curricullum until purple or so, by the time they have been in that long, they have had 6+ classes of the falling material, and experience falling from our free form self-defense drills.

    I don't understand how you can teach kenpo and not teach falling, but I have seen the result. At a seminar up in Seattle, Prof. Crimi was giving a seminar on falling, I was in the black belt class and I must say the results were pretty embarrasing. We probably had 25 black belts in the room, some with significant rank, and it was obvious that many had never received that sort of training (short for they sucked). I've seen lots of judo white belts that had better breakfalls than most in that class.

    What I don't understand is how these students/teachers dummy for each other when a technique calls for a hard takedown, their partner must have just be gentle all the time.

    Lamont
    Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Kenpo Karate
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    Default Re: Rolls & Falls

    Not only do we include rolls and falls within our organizations syllabus we begin teaching them from the get go. (we have especially thick matts for drills involving rolls, falls, takedowns, and any other type grappling etc)

    Just as with everything else, we start with basics. We start out teaching them basic back falls and side falls. (slap the mat drills)

    At each progressive belt level we get a little more advanced requiring head and shoulder rolls, head and back rolls, etc....

    The reasons for teaching these skills is that regardless of your skill level, you can still be caught off gaurd and shoved to the ground. Training involving these methods helps to teach the student to "roll with the punches"...no pun intended. =)

    some advantages off the top of me head =)
    -decrease damage taken from hitting the ground
    -increase recovery and follow up times after hitting the ground
    -learn how to use borrowed force (rolls) to your advantage
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Rolls & Falls

    I start teaching them at yellow belt even though they are not required. I agree with Lamont, if you can't fall you can't even dummy for Dance of Death.....
    Just because you do something one way, does not mean that everyone else does it that way, or that it is even the correct way.

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    Default Re: Rolls & Falls

    We had some fun when Blindside came to train with us last year, Gave the class over to him and he had a good time with the falls n' rolls and our students

    I think they are an intergral part of Kenpo, from being able to properly 'uke' for someone to sparring, Many a time has a student 'flotbotted' when sparring and if it weren't for properly falling.. well it woulda done some good damage to the brainholder

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    Default Re: Rolls & Falls

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoTess
    We had some fun when Blindside came to train with us last year, Gave the class over to him and he had a good time with the falls n' rolls and our students
    I forgot about that, that was fun.

    Lamont
    Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Kenpo Karate
    www.blackbirdmartialarts.com

    “He, who will not reason, is a bigot; he, who cannot, is a fool; and he, who dares not, is a slave.”
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    Default Re: Rolls & Falls

    Occasionaly we will get the mats out and go over falls and rolls. Usually if we have a seminar where we expect a large amount of falling.

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    Default Re: Rolls & Falls

    I teach rolls and falls right at the beginning. It gets the student used to the ground and takes away the fear of falling. That is a huge step in becoming a good dummy.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Rolls & Falls

    I would have to say that the necessity to teach rolls and falls directly relates to how much people fall or are thrown down in class.

    In the kempo systems I have studied...falling was integral as a student could be sent to the ground at any point. Once a student was comfortable with not falling over every time a punch or kick was thrown, they could then begin falling (ukemi waza). Like Rob said...it should eb taught right from the beginning.

    I am not too familiar with the Parker systems, but I know that even they have techniques for bringing some one to the ground.

    One of the other benefits to ukemi training is that it instills this weird kind of ballance and demonstrates to the students exactly what the throw or projection ( not necessarily a big throw but one where Uke's energy is directed to the ground). One of the things I noticed when I began counter throwing techniques was that it was easier to escape the throw at any point even after the throw itself was completed.

    The purpose of the learning to breakfall and tumble isn't just to protect yourself from injury, it is also (and I was told this is the primary reason for it) so that the person being thrown is actually in control of what happens during the throw. If some one gets a person in kote gaeshi, and they fall properly, all a person has to do is to keep their wits and continue the motion started by the thrower. They can come up and escape or in some cases reverse the throw.

    There are some people who will say that people aren't fast enough to do stuff like this or that an aware exponent will not let you get away with something like this. It is just like anything else...practice to succede and it will work.

    Good topic,
    Regards,
    Walt

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    Default Re: Rolls & Falls

    Now that we have established that many of us teach rolls and falls. What rolls and what falls do you teach?
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Rolls & Falls

    Quote Originally Posted by kroh
    I am not too familiar with the Parker systems, but I know that even they have techniques for bringing some one to the ground.

    ....several actually. Most techniques end up with the opponent on the ground....one way or another...LOL. =)
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Rolls & Falls

    I teach the rolls first. I start off with the front roll. For safety I always make sure that the student never puts their head on the floor. I usually make a joke about toe jam not wanting to come out of hair easily this usually keep the head off the ground. We teachthe front roll from a low crouch. Then I teach the back roll, I do this from starting in a sitting position. They roll from one hip to the opposite shoulder, this ensures they do not roll along the spine, and makes sure the head does not touch the ground. The third roll is the shoulder roll. I usually use the visual of a bull dozer with a scoop on the back of it. The scoop comes down and pulls up some dirt. I have them mimick this action with their swing arm, and it help propel them into the roll which is started in a one knee down position. This roll goes fron scooping arms' shoulder to opposite hip. As the student becomes more compotent the height of the starting position of teh rolls increases.

    The falls I teach are work inthe same manner start low and build up. We start off withthe fron fall from kneeling position. Women hate this fall because of the compressionto the breasts so I do not make them do it that often, just enough that they know how to do it if neccessary. When teavhing the front fall I make sure they fall with their head turned to the side, one knee bent outward tothe same side as the head is turned, and to make sure the entire forearm and hand hists teh griund at the same time as the rest of the body. Upon impact withthe ground they exhale. The back fall is taught from a squatting position. they kisk out one leg and fall/roll backwards on to their back, upon landing on their back the smack tehir arms & hands down on teh ground to stop them form over rolling so tehir head does not hit the ground. The third fall is teh side fall. It is taught from a squatting position. The student put both arms out to one side of the body. If their arms go to the left they then kick their right leg over to the left, this cause them to fall to their right. When their body falls they slap their left hand to the ground to stop body from letting the head hit the ground.

    Lastly I have a shoulder roll fall which is a combination of the shoulder roll and side fall.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Rolls & Falls

    Basically the same Rob...

    Start with rolls first, then progress to falls as they are more comfortable. Ukemi waza is essential to teaching throwing. If you don't have any students who do it well enough then you really will have a tough time of it. But one of the things I have found...Toss a student on their head enough times and they'll get around to figuring it out.

    Regards,
    Walt

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    Default Re: Rolls & Falls

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad
    For the instructors here on KenpoTalk, do you teach rolls & falls to your students? At what level do you teach rolls & falls. If you don't teach them why not?
    Yes, I work it in at all levels.
    " Come with me, and I will complete your trainning."

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    Default Re: Rolls & Falls

    I have noticed that falls and rolls are not part of the class untill t eh upper belts.. and like pointed out I can say that this confuses me bacause of the need for it in Dance of Death.

    I was aksed to UKE for somone prepping for their purp test and apparently I was the first person she had thrown who knew how to fall. It actually scared her when I slapped out.. we have fairly hard floors (changing soon) and it echos when you slap so it sounded much worse than it was.

    I remember my training in falls. 5 to 10 min every class. Back and sides, frist from a sitting position, then crouch, then low stance, then standing, finaly taken into the air. Front and side rolls, diving front roll, front fall... and the msot important thing I learned from it all.... TUCK YOUR HEAD!!!! heheheh

    Little true story for you to push the importance of falling properly.

    bout... ohh.. 5... 6 years ago we had a really nasty Ice storm.. our driveway was covered and fairly steep, (see where this is going?), I had my arms full of books and felt both feet just slide out from under me. Without thinking I dropped the books, crossed my arms infront of my chest tucked my head and slapped out as soon as I hit the ground... layed there for a second thinking... "Ok.. that hurt.. but not nearly as much as it could have."

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    Default Re: Rolls & Falls

    We teach forward rolls and backward rolls pretty much from the start and we also have THICK pads

    We also teach break-falls front back and side but that is a tad bit later--

    Many of our techniques end with a forward or backward shoulder roll-

    james
    The above is just my opinion.

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    Default Re: Rolls & Falls

    Yes I teach the breakfalls and rolls .. but at Green Belt .. I know and feel that they should be taught earlier on but with all we have at the lower levels they just sort of found their place in Green.
    Pat Munk, Judan
    Kenpo Karate

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    Default Re: Rolls & Falls

    What do your students do on techniques with take-downs prior to learning to fall?
    The above is just my opinion.

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    Default Re: Rolls & Falls

    Purple belt has a technique called Drawbridge where you take your attacker down. Purple belt is two belt levels before green. We used to teach rolls and falls with the yellow belt material.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Rolls & Falls

    Quote Originally Posted by Dianhsuhe
    What do your students do on techniques with take-downs prior to learning to fall?
    The rolls and breakfalls are in my requirements for Green Belt but that doesn't preclude us from teaching the students how to fall prior to them having to be required to do them for the belt test.

    Also just because a technique requires a takedown doesn't mean you have to plow into the student to show them what it feels like to be slammed into the floor.
    Pat Munk, Judan
    Kenpo Karate

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