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Thread: Can you count on the police....

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    Default Can you count on the police....

    ...to protect you when they're too afraid to protect themselves? A relative of mine that works in law enforcement brought this to my attention. Interesting, and enlightening article.

    Are We Breeding a Police Culture of "Additional Victims?"-Chuck Remsberg, Sr PoliceOne.com Contributor

    Law enforcement agencies "should build a police culture that accepts,
    validates and rewards a fighting spirit." Instead too many are creating
    "additional victims," hesitant officers who shy from using deadly force when it's legal and urgently needed. The result: "Some officers today are more afraid of being sued than being murdered!"

    That sobering message was delivered passionately in Milwaukee earlier this
    month by one of a rare breed, a tell-it-like-it-is administrator, Chief Jeff
    Chudwin of Olympia Fields (Ill.) PD. Chudwin spoke on "Surviving
    Officer-Involved Shootings and the Aftermath" to kick off an intense
    tactical operations seminar produced by the Assn. of SWAT
    Personnel-Wisconsin, hosted by the Milwaukee County SO and attended by nearly 200 SWAT-team operatives.

    A former street cop, prosecutor, long-time president of the Illinois
    Tactical Officers Assn. and PoliceOne contributor, Chudwin, across a
    rapid-fire, provocative 2 hours, presented graphic illustrations of what can
    only be called the wimping of American policing, and issued a stirring call
    for change. In some cases on-scene video drove home the impact.

    . A plainclothes officer is being slashed in the face and neck
    during a ground fight with a knife-wielding suspect. Under life-threatening
    attack, he hands his gun to another officer because "he's afraid he'll
    discharge the weapon accidentally" during the struggle. "He gets praised by the media for 'showing restraint,' but what he did makes my skin crawl,"
    Chudwin declares. "Why didn't he shove the muzzle in the suspect's eye and pull the trigger?"

    . Another officer responds to a man-with-a-gun call at a food mart,
    sees the suspect with a gun in hand but stays in her patrol car. The suspect grabs a citizen whom he forces to the ground at gunpoint. The officer fails to intervene. The suspect murders the captive by shooting him in the head. Still no action by the officer beyond "officially observing." Responding backup finally kills the offender. A disturbing footnote to this event, Chudwin says, "is that some of her peers feel the first officer did nothing wrong."

    . An offender who has murdered his girlfriend is outdoors in a
    residential neighborhood firing a gun randomly. He's surrounded by SWAT but the officers take no action other than trying to maintain a loose perimeter, even when he points his revolver directly at them. The standoff drags on through many threats to police and public until he eventually is shot when he closes in on an officer and points the gun at him. When Chudwin asks the officers why they didn't fire earlier, they explain: "Our commander told us not to shoot him." "An outrage!" Chudwin declares. "If you're putting an offender at the top of the list for safety, then you have your priorities screwed up. Why are we catering to the person who created the problem?"

    . SWAT officers are offered rapid deployment training by a tactical
    organization but back away from the concept because they consider it "too dangerous." "We don't run into the muzzle of a machine gun," Chudwin chides, "but we do run into danger every day, and we should be prepared to do it."

    . An active shooter is inside a fast-food restaurant killing people.
    A SWAT team is ready to make entry or to fire through glass to take him out. A commander en route but 10 miles out orders the officers to stand down until he gets there....A commanding officer instructs his street personnel, "You can't shoot at anyone until you are shot at first".... A chief states that anyone who can't control an aggressive offender with a knife from 5 to 7 feet away without using deadly force should not be a police officer-all examples of "lunacy," Chudwin says. "That kind of thinking can put you in a black hole you can't get out of. This is the culture we have to get away from. There is no obligation for you to be injured, wounded or murdered" rather than shooting to stop a lethal threat.

    Chudwin made clear he is not advocating the development of rogue officers who pursue vigilante missions. But he does feel that officers and agencies should embrace a greater willingness and readiness to use lawful deadly force in appropriate circumstances.

    "Predators are out there, not afraid of us, willing to attack us," said
    Chudwin, who has had two friends murdered on the job. "But officers often
    back away from aggressively finishing the fight." Part of the problem, he
    suggested, is unrealistic training teaching officers to rely on tactics and
    equipment that in many real-life confrontations don't work.

    Field experience has well established that pepper spray, for example, "won't work against people who are committed and willing to fight to the death." Yet he showed dramatic video of a determined naked man moving threateningly down a city street with a knife after having cut off his own penis. Responding officers attempted-futilely-to control him with endless verbal commands and bursts of OC. Their solution ultimately was to risk their own safety by dog-piling him.

    Why waste time and heighten your personal risk "by trying something that
    cannot work, like pain compliance against a crackhead who can't feel pain?" Chudwin asked. "Why create false expectations of success?"

    He deplored the tendency, again often reinforced in training, to
    over-verbalize. "Show me a Supreme Court case or statute that says you must give verbal warning before using deadly force," Chudwin challenged. "There isn't one. It's not necessary to talk to somebody when they're trying to murder you. You can do it, but there's no legal obligation to and tacticallyit's not desirable. There are some offenders you simply can't negotiate with. Yet officers want to take things to the last instant because they have imprinted in their mind 'I don't want to shoot.'"

    Reacting properly depends on having the right mind-set, Chudwin stressed. "When you go out on the street, the first thing you say when you get in your patrol car should not be, 'Oh, God, I might get sued today.' You really have nothing personally to fear when you follow law, policy and procedure. But fear of liability has led to the murders of police officers. "If you're more concerned about getting sued than getting murdered, you can't do the job like it needs to be done. You're a threat to yourself and others."

    Regarding deadly force, "you have to know what you can do and when you can do it, and be prepared to do it immediately, without hesitation. If you fail any part of this equation, you will fail on the street." Willingness to emphatically stop a life threat needs to be part of your mind-set off-duty as well as on. "Only 25 per cent of officers in some areas carry off-duty, and then they carry no extra ammunition," he said in disbelief.

    "Have some firearm on you always. You will be some place someday with your family and some antisocial s.o.b. will come up to you and want to cut your throat and take your children away-and you're not going to let him.

    "Remember, there is no coming back from the dead. If you understand that,you will come home at night. You may be a little battered but you won't be full of holes because you gave some predator verbal commands rather than shoot him."
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Ė Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Can you count on the police....

    This is a crying shame. In my opinion there is no reason for an officer of the law to put themselves in these types of situations. It goes along with the fact that many slain officers families cannot afford the simple necessities, yet prisoners are given exercise, schooling and free medical. This stuff has got to change!

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    Default Re: Can you count on the police....

    Good article!
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    Default Re: Can you count on the police....

    This is a great argument for training. I don't want to wait for protection. I need to be able to protect. My office was broken into a few weeks ago. I frequently work late and come down with family members. If we had been there during the robbery we would have needed to deal with the situation. I would hate to be waiting for help from a cop wondering if they would be sued. i won't be worrying about it. I don't want carried by friends!
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    Thumbs up Re: Can you count on the police....

    I had a student, who was a State Patrolman. He made a routine traffic stop. The driver had an expired lisense. While he was running her information, the passenger decided to bale. The patrolman tried to stop the fleeing passenger. During the scuffle, said passenger pulled a handgun and shot my student 4 times while they grappled. 2 shots into his vest, 1 grazing his stomach and the 4th lodging deep into his thigh. It was only after the 4th shot, that my student pulled his service revolver and shot the offender once in the head, ending the conflict. Ya only hafta shoot my students 4 times before we open up the can of Whoopass.

    Post Script...The event described above happened on a Monday evening. The officer was scheduled to test for his purple belt on that Wed. I visited him in the hospital after the shooting, and his biggest concern was..."Sifu...I'm not sure I'm going to be able to test on Wed?!" I told him he'd already passed the Self Defense portion of the exam with flying colors, the rest should be a piece of cake.
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    Default Re: Can you count on the police....

    Well I have a lot of respect for the men and women in Blue.

    But I think I will share a few experiences that I had with DPD (Dallas). The company I work for owns several buildings all over the world and a few here in the Dallas area. They owned a building some here in TX might recognize the old Mercantile Bank building. Anyway that building had been empty since around 1985 and myself and two others would pair up once or twice a day and walk over to that building from our building.

    We were to walk around the premier looking for broken windows and to check the plywood we placed to block doors and holes in the walls that homeless left. We had a problem keeping homeless people out since the price of copper was so high. These people were brave; they would break in to the building in open day light with two very busy streets in Downtown Dallas on either side of the building.

    Granted this place is dark in most places, I mean so dark you canít see an inch in front of your face and very spooky. The building was built back in 1939 and even has gun turrets on the roof. Well itís actually 5 buildings in a complex and all interconnected and different heights. Not the safest place to be looking for thieves that donít want to be caught.

    Most of the time I would carry a stick or a home made set of escrema sticks as we would walk around trying to round up the homeless intruders. Sometimes we would Call DPD then go look for them. Sometimes we could hear them and walk right up and make them lay down as we called DPD. But when we would have to chase them through the building we would wait for the police. When the police would get there, (the guys anyway) they would not want to come into the building. Even with 9mm/.40 cal pistols, a stick, pepper spray, and back up. They could not bring in the dogs due to broken glass everywhere, thieves make a mess.

    I remember one time two Male officers did actually come into the building with us but made us walk in front of them. I had a stick and my boss had a knife, while two armed really large male DPD officers walked behind us?? But on another occasion two female officers came into the building and wouldnít let us walk in front of them. They insisted that we stay behind them. Myself being the country boy chivalric type had a hard time letting two women lead the way in a dangerous area. But they did have hand cuffs so I did as they asked.

    It just struck me as funny that these two female officers, probably around 120lbs each had no problem walking around all over the building. But two male officers around 220-240lbs each wussed out and wouldnít even take the lead in the building. And you canít say the female officers were inexperienced I asked one how long she was on the force. Her reply was 18 years.


    But I have to say I see their side as well, thatís one reason I havenít gone and tested for a LEO position. They are so scrutinized itís unbelievable, and have to walk a double edged sword constantly. They have a tough job and seem to be severely limited in what they can do while the criminal plays the game with no rules.
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