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Thread: Do you Feel Kenpo Forms don't get Judge fairly in alot of tournements?

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    Default Do you Feel Kenpo Forms don't get Judge fairly in alot of tournements?

    I've been competing these past two months in Fl,and in traditional Forms and my form was Long Form 4.I took 2nd Both times but at the gator nationals in daytona beach the guy who took first said he felt bad because he said i took him in katas and he was suprise that he took first.I told him that meant more to me then the trophy did.last month was the same thing,but i also saw a girl competing for the grand did long form 4 as perfect as you can get it,very explosive and she lost to some other lady who did a japanese form all cause she yelled more.its sad because it seems kenpo forms look better but don't get judge well.well if anything i got even by taking 1st in sparring.but i did my form with so much power that my arms where sore.any grips?

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    Default Re: Do you Feel Kenpo Forms don't get Judge fairly in alot of tournements?

    I think judging is entirely subjective.

    Kenpo forms generally don't do as well in open competition because our forms have many intricacies that you have to know to understand.

    Hard style forms are easier to judge because the strikes are simple and easy to see.

    I have no idea what people judge on.

    At the Maryland Championships, I watched a few of the divisions and I was surprised to see that I placed people exactly the same as the judges, but it seems for different reasons.

    The judge said to the guy who got third that he got marked down for wearing a necklace. I thought that was stupid. I marked him third, but for more technical reasons, which I discussed with him. (I was not a judge)

    That's one of the reasons I don't like doing tournaments. The whole thing is too subjective.

    I did one in the kids' division once and there was a kid from our school who was very fast, but his stances were poopy. He won. I think because he was faster than the girl who was doing it, although I thought she was clearly better and rated her accordingly.

    In another ring, I judged next to a guy who was shotokan. He and I judged people almost exactly the same and when we discussed it later, we discovered it was for the same reasons.

    The other judges seem to be picking numbers randomly out of the air, with no regard for talent or skill.

    So, in other words, no, I don't think they're fair.

    --Amy
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    Default Re: Do you Feel Kenpo Forms don't get Judge fairly in alot of tournements?

    Quote Originally Posted by danp1970 View Post
    I've been competing these past two months in Fl,and in traditional Forms and my form was Long Form 4.I took 2nd Both times but at the gator nationals in daytona beach the guy who took first said he felt bad because he said i took him in katas and he was suprise that he took first.I told him that meant more to me then the trophy did.last month was the same thing,but i also saw a girl competing for the grand did long form 4 as perfect as you can get it,very explosive and she lost to some other lady who did a japanese form all cause she yelled more.its sad because it seems kenpo forms look better but don't get judge well.well if anything i got even by taking 1st in sparring.but i did my form with so much power that my arms where sore.any grips?
    I compete from time to time in large tournaments, and used to compete quite regularly.

    Yes, I agree with you that Kenpo forms typically don't get judged appropriately. The complexities of the forms are, for the most part, much more challenging than those you see in "traditional" karate styles. To be honest, that is why I typcially compete with a traditional hung gar kung fu form, called the Tiger and Crane.

    If, on the other hand, I see some balanced representation in the number of judges, I opt for an American Kenpo Karate form, such as Long Form 4, 5, or 6.

    Hope that helps.


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    Default Re: Do you Feel Kenpo Forms don't get Judge fairly in alot of tournements?

    I was thing about doing maybe long 2,or going back to the pawlque forms i use to do.that why i haven't competed in 2 years too.i had lost to a guy i had must of score about 20 pts on and they gave him the grands.it seem you have to knock them out cold for them to see the tech.i re enter this year cause my 6 year daughter wanted to compete so i figured if i competed she would want to.and i'm very proud of her,she took 3rd in her division out of 9 kids.I told her not to worry about the trohpy if she didn't win one she could have one of mines.but she was so proud of her trophy.so that mad the day even sweeter.: )

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    Default Re: Do you Feel Kenpo Forms don't get Judge fairly in alot of tournements?

    In a traditional forms division the judges are looking for Japanese/Okinanwan forms. You will only get judged competently doing a Kenpo form if you have Kenpo judges in a kenpo division at a tournament. I would suggest anyone looking to comepte regularily get their hands on the rule book for the organization that promotes the events they attend. Read these rules, know these rules and bring someone along with you that knows these rules, that way the person you bring can go to the abritrator on your behalf if there is a problem.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Do you Feel Kenpo Forms don't get Judge fairly in alot of tournements?

    I was judged low and was told it was because I wasn't aggressive enough....it doesn't help that the majority of judges were with the other girls school...of course she screamed a lot in her form. I was very pissed with the whol tournament. I CLEARLY out did her in sparrig...yet they called my blocks hits and gave her points. I had a number of folks say I was robbed. I am therefore leery of ever entering a tournament if that school is involved.
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    I've only gone to 1 tournament since switching to the kenpo system. In our area Kenpo was virtually nonexistant.

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    Default Re: Do you Feel Kenpo Forms don't get Judge fairly in alot of tournements?

    Nothing is fair at most tournaments! I used to work out with a TKD practitioner who was really into tournaments. He used to say that the judges could beat you quicker than your opponent. That is just one of the realities you have to live with if you compete. He used to spend a lot of time training to throw only strikes that scored well in point sparing- easily seen and percieved as effective. He'd move for position, not dominant over his opponent, but so the judges had a view of his strikes. In forms, he'd spend a lot of time with others who'd competed in that tournament before and work on what the judges in that area or organization liked. He worked on things that looked good, but may not have been practical. In weapons, he'd work on fancy whirling, twirling, tossing- nothing I'd do with a weapon.

    Tournament martial arts is its' own specialty. One reason I have never done much competition. I'd rather volunteer to work in a tournament than to compete. I've met a lot of good martial artists that way, and made some good contacts, without getting all upset about fairness.

    Dan C

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    Default Re: Do you Feel Kenpo Forms don't get Judge fairly in alot of tournements?

    There seems to be a common thread that the winning participants yell more. So...you all that compete...why don't ya make more noise?

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    Default Re: Do you Feel Kenpo Forms don't get Judge fairly in alot of tournements?

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    Nothing is fair at most tournaments! I used to work out with a TKD practitioner who was really into tournaments. He used to say that the judges could beat you quicker than your opponent. That is just one of the realities you have to live with if you compete. He used to spend a lot of time training to throw only strikes that scored well in point sparing- easily seen and percieved as effective. He'd move for position, not dominant over his opponent, but so the judges had a view of his strikes. In forms, he'd spend a lot of time with others who'd competed in that tournament before and work on what the judges in that area or organization liked. He worked on things that looked good, but may not have been practical. In weapons, he'd work on fancy whirling, twirling, tossing- nothing I'd do with a weapon.

    Tournament martial arts is its' own specialty. One reason I have never done much competition. I'd rather volunteer to work in a tournament than to compete. I've met a lot of good martial artists that way, and made some good contacts, without getting all upset about fairness.

    Dan C
    Oh, I am SOOO with you on this one. I'd much rather help than compete. The judging is completely arbitrary. And the yelling just gives me a headache.

    The thing that's stupid about all the yelling is that it's from the throat. A diaphragm yell can't be maintained that way.....unless they are singing it.

    A throat yell doesn't do anything but hurt the judges' ears and hurt the competitors' throats, yet they do it anyway.

    Totally a wste if you ask me.

    --Amy
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    Default Re: Do you Feel Kenpo Forms don't get Judge fairly in alot of tournements?

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong View Post
    Oh, I am SOOO with you on this one. I'd much rather help than compete. The judging is completely arbitrary. And the yelling just gives me a headache.

    The thing that's stupid about all the yelling is that it's from the throat. A diaphragm yell can't be maintained that way.....unless they are singing it.

    A throat yell doesn't do anything but hurt the judges' ears and hurt the competitors' throats, yet they do it anyway.

    Totally a wste if you ask me.

    --Amy
    Lots of sounds from the diaphragm can be made and sustained without singing.

    Maybe it was a really stupid question to ask. I don't compete so this sort of thing isn't of intrest to me at all. But it seems to me that if the competitor isn't doing all they can to win, then the competitor shouldn't be surprised when they don't win. Or, maybe I just don't know what the heck I'm talking about and should shut up now

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    Default Re: Do you Feel Kenpo Forms don't get Judge fairly in alot of tournements?

    I found when I only referee at a tournament that I always miss competing.
    Last edited by Rob Broad; 09-20-2006 at 12:03 PM.
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    Default Re: Do you Feel Kenpo Forms don't get Judge fairly in alot of tournements?

    I think it is more about having educated judges, I've won two grands with Long 6, and an open grand with what was essentially a traditional self-defense routine.

    On the flip side, I've also been in a tournament where I was the only black gi in a sea of white, that was.... different. I could watch the experienced judges gave me high marks and the inexperienced younger judges give me much lower marks. Tournaments are a crapshoot, at one tournament I helped judge at, the panel of the center ring was 4/5ths kenpo instructors from different schools. Since they scheduled all the open divisions to showboat on center stage, I swear you could hear the grinding of teeth from the judges when the choreographed self-defense divisions came up.

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    Default Re: Do you Feel Kenpo Forms don't get Judge fairly in alot of tournements?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carol Kaur View Post
    There seems to be a common thread that the winning participants yell more. So...you all that compete...why don't ya make more noise?
    I have had success at tournaments with very little to no "yelling".
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    Default Re: Do you Feel Kenpo Forms don't get Judge fairly in alot of tournements?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carol Kaur View Post
    Lots of sounds from the diaphragm can be made and sustained without singing.

    Perhaps, but that's not what I see at the tournaments I've been to. It's all throat.

    --Amy
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    Default Re: Do you Feel Kenpo Forms don't get Judge fairly in alot of tournements?

    IMHO, forms are more about self-expression than anything else. How can one judge that about another!?! What measuring stick do you use? They use what they have, their own thoughts on how they would express the form. Kind of biased really isn't it? The winner is the one that most closely expresses the form like that of the judge. Doesn't mean it's bad or anything. Just that if you win you probably have a lot in common with the judge! LOL.
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    Default Re: Do you Feel Kenpo Forms don't get Judge fairly in alot of tournements?

    Forms competition is judged upon a string of criteria, balance, focus, power, fluidity, timing, and presentation. The only part of the form that really be subject to personal interpretation by the judges is presentation. If you are losing your balance in your form you should be scored low, same if you are just going through the motions. If you display power, focus, balance, and everything is in sync then your score should reflect that. Most tournament organizations have a complete rules handbook that will tell you what the judges are to be looking for in the forms divisions. More and more organizations are hosting more and more referee's clinics so people learn how to judge properly.
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    Default Re: Do you Feel Kenpo Forms don't get Judge fairly in alot of tournements?

    Hey CC,

    I don't want to get off topic, but who are those guys in the photo with you?
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    Default Re: Do you Feel Kenpo Forms don't get Judge fairly in alot of tournements?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook View Post
    Hey CC,

    I don't want to get off topic, but who are those guys in the photo with you?
    I bet Bob and Miyu know. LOL.

    You'd have to be a 'rasslin fan. The guy on the left is Jimmy "Boogey-Woogey Man" Valiant. He had some success as a singles wrestler in the 80's but was better known as part of the tag-team The Valiant brothers in the late 70's/early 80's.

    The guy on the right is none other than THE Iron Shiek. Hulk Hogans Nemesis for years and overall bad guy star of the Saturday morning cartoon, "Hulk Hogans Rock & Wrestling." ROFL.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad
    Forms competition is judged upon a string of criteria, balance, focus, power, fluidity, timing, and presentation. The only part of the form that really be subject to personal interpretation by the judges is presentation. If you are losing your balance in your form you should be scored low, same if you are just going through the motions. If you display power, focus, balance, and everything is in sync then your score should reflect that. Most tournament organizations have a complete rules handbook that will tell you what the judges are to be looking for in the forms divisions. More and more organizations are hosting more and more referee's clinics so people learn how to judge properly.
    That makes sense. I would think people would be more accepting of the judging if the referee followed a universal handbook used by all.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Do you Feel Kenpo Forms don't get Judge fairly in alot of tournements?

    I would say 90% of the tournaments I go to that I am the senior judge in my ring and because of this I always go over the criteria with the 2 or 4 other judges for the division. It often upsets the promotoers because they think we are wasting time, but I find if we are all on the same page before we start then we can zip through the division very quickly with out any complications. I do the same with the sparring divisions, and right after i have spoke with my other judges I then speak to all the competitors to remind them of what will not be acceptable. It might take a couple extra minutes but it does speed up the process, which is great when you have 3 divisions and 85 competitors to run through before noon.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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