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Thread: The Origins and History of Martial Arts, Buddha, Humanity, and ALL ELSE

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    Default The Origins and History of Martial Arts, Buddha, Humanity, and ALL ELSE

    The very first buddha was black? Oh my God. This is the type of nonsense that doesn't build anybody's credibility.

    "Buddha was born in Lumbini and raised in the small kingdom or principality of Kapilvastu, both of which are in modern day Nepal.
    His father was King Suddhodana, the chief of the Shakya nation (the website has conveniently left the letter "H" out of Shakya), one of several ancient tribes in the growing state of Kosala; Gautama was the family name. His mother, Queen Maha Maya (Māyādevī) and Suddhodana's wife, was a Koliyan princess. One thing that cannot be forgotten is that the ancient Indians were documentors. They kept very good records. There is no record of an African people either ruling over or inhabiting the area where Buddah was born and raised.

    The Buddah would not have been white or black, but a mixture of Chinese and Indian."
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    Default Re: Traditional (Ancient) Training methods and the martial arts

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyKBoxer View Post
    No.
    I completely disagree here.
    While there is absolutely proof that Africans studied and trained in martial arts long ago, there is absolutely no proof that said martial arts skills were moved to asia.
    You re making assumptions that just because you have some proof of a history of combat and martial arts, that it means it was the root of all martial arts and combat. That is a false assumption. the similar conditions theory is one that states that people are built the same, and only so many options are available to fight with. Unfortunately the entire martial arts and civilization that you refer to has long since died out, so the only actual proof is what they left behind in artwork.
    If there is further proof of anything then please share it with us I would be fascinated to read it and see, Amen Rah over on Kenponet has been spouting this nonsense for years and I looked into it after having a conversation with him as well, and like I said there is no proof of any transfer of knowledge, or teaching it to the east... Its to bad that the martial art did not survive I think it would be very interesting to see what an art that old would actually look like... if it would have stayed traditional to its roots, or changed with the times and become something all encompassing.

    No I'm not assuming that.I'm pointing out that African martial systems predated all others by neccessity,due to the fact that African civilization predated all others.We can trace Asian and Oriental martial exploits from whatever era you choose.If you wish to use Buddha as a starting point for both Therevadan Buddhism (sp) and martial arts? I can prove that this first Buddha is African by the very sculptures crafted of him and the stories of his lineage stretching to North Africa during his lifetime,and the fact that the African martial arts he learned are millenia older than him (medu neter).He then took his branch of African martial art,added his own particular approach to it,and passed it on.If you want to start with Hindu civilization? Fine.I can point out the African root there AND the transition of African martial art to whatever point in the ancient worlds contiguous of India,Tibet,China.Not hard at all.They document it themselves.

    The martial arts in question DID survive...they became completely the inheritance of the Hindus and Orientals after the Africans themselves were intermingled with the populace and/or driven out.The new inheritors then took their arts into directions more reflective of their culture needs history etc.Like English bareknuckle boxing was modified here in the U.S.A. by U.S. boxers and now boxing is looked upon more as a U.S.A. sport than it is as an English sport...even though England clearly communicated boxing to America.

    Yoga has its roots in Africa.Muay Boran does too.Etc.The proof isn't JUST because these African sculptures show the movements wraps techniques etc. that we now refer to as Muay Boran,etc. prior to the existence of the countries with whom we now associate the disciplines.The proof is there when you combine this previous knowledge with the knowledge of interactions between these people directly or indirectly. Unfortunately,much of this information isn't online,they are in books.(Lolol yes people like me and othes and probably you too still read lotsa books).I cn provide you a mixture of links and oboks to read that will decisively resolve this matter for you.

    Gotta go now but when I return I'll start with that list of sources.

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    Default Re: Traditional (Ancient) Training methods and the martial arts

    Quote Originally Posted by ATACX GYM View Post
    No I'm not assuming that.I'm pointing out that African martial systems predated all others by neccessity,due to the fact that African civilization predated all others.We can trace Asian and Oriental martial exploits from whatever era you choose.If you wish to use Buddha as a starting point for both Therevadan Buddhism (sp) and martial arts? I can prove that this first Buddha is African by the very sculptures crafted of him and the stories of his lineage stretching to North Africa during his lifetime,and the fact that the African martial arts he learned are millenia older than him (medu neter).He then took his branch of African martial art,added his own particular approach to it,and passed it on.If you want to start with Hindu civilization? Fine.I can point out the African root there AND the transition of African martial art to whatever point in the ancient worlds contiguous of India,Tibet,China.Not hard at all.They document it themselves.

    The martial arts in question DID survive...they became completely the inheritance of the Hindus and Orientals after the Africans themselves were intermingled with the populace and/or driven out.The new inheritors then took their arts into directions more reflective of their culture needs history etc.Like English bareknuckle boxing was modified here in the U.S.A. by U.S. boxers and now boxing is looked upon more as a U.S.A. sport than it is as an English sport...even though England clearly communicated boxing to America.

    Yoga has its roots in Africa.Muay Boran does too.Etc.The proof isn't JUST because these African sculptures show the movements wraps techniques etc. that we now refer to as Muay Boran,etc. prior to the existence of the countries with whom we now associate the disciplines.The proof is there when you combine this previous knowledge with the knowledge of interactions between these people directly or indirectly. Unfortunately,much of this information isn't online,they are in books.(Lolol yes people like me and othes and probably you too still read lotsa books).I cn provide you a mixture of links and oboks to read that will decisively resolve this matter for you.

    Gotta go now but when I return I'll start with that list of sources.
    In that case, Jesus Christ was obviously a European-looking man with brown hair and blue eyes, because there are lots of paintings depicting him that way, right?
    Siddhartha, the original buddha, was not a black man, not in the sub-Saharan tpye of black. For that matter, while the ancient Egyptians were certainly African, that doesn't mean they were "black". There was only a short period of history when Egypt was ruled by people who were actually black africans.
    And while many people in India, etc. have very dark skin, they're not black Africans.
    You seem to be using Google-Fu a lot and repeating things that don't stand up to scrutiny.

    In any case, how does any of this make any of us better at kenpo?
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    Default Re: Traditional (Ancient) Training methods and the martial arts

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkC View Post
    The very first buddha was black? Oh my God. This is the type of nonsense that doesn't build anybody's credibility.

    First,here's one of the pictures of Siddartha Gautama.He's Black. http://www.bippi.org/bippi/menu_left...ha_Gautama.jpg
    http://www.ebudhaindia.com/images/bw_head.jpg These are the sculptures that reflect the EARLIER and MORE ACCURATE representations of the First Buddha.

    Only later,long after Africans have lost sway in the region and other invaders and the passage of time have tarnished and begun to erase African influence and identity did the sculptures of various Buddhas also change to reflect the melting pot that was emerging in that area and that time.Notice the fade and change in color as invaders of various groups held sway with the resultant intermingling changing the physical characteristics of the people residing in India,until there is even a picture of a WHITE Buddha...

    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3175/...74e29db46a.jpg
    http://edu.glogster.com/media/4/25/88/21/25882175.jpg
    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_tI-l8pB4ZS...ha-gautama.jpg

    http://members.fortunecity.com/jrmoo...icapart26.html

    http://www.essaysbyekowa.com/Black%20Buddha.htm


    Since you don't study etymology and don't have proficiency in African language and I do,you couldn't recognize right off top that the words you were using--Kosala,Maha Maya,Suddhodana,etc.--are also of African etymological word roots.Now this is VERY RUSHED WORK on my part.I'd be able to provide you with LOTS MORE INFO completely destroying the long held racist lie of the original Buddha not being Black,and of course that kind of racism and reactionary rhetoric has been given far more impetus due to India's horrific caste system too...so even the most well-meaning of people take as truth some of the most abominable lies distortions and untruths.I did too until I studied more and asked questions and followed them unerringly to their root.

    You'd be absolutely right...if you weren't ABSOLUTELY WRONG.

    And Wesley Snipes back in 1998 dropped a special prior to the first BLADE showing the direct link of the world's martial arts to Africa and Africa's dessimination of martial arts to the ancient world.I can't find the full thing now because it's a DVD and I think they're trying to stop links divulging its whole contents,but for those of us who watched this show we should remember the very clearly delineated and specified point made by Kadeem Hardisson that Africa is the source of all martial arts and the map and other info showing it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKZupplsXsg

    Unfortunately this link doesn't show ANY of the info that I want to share...but it MAY jog peoples' memories.





    The further back in history you go,the absolute Blackness of the first Buddha becomes inarguable and so does the sense that it makes.Recall also that Buddha is a TITLE it's not a NAME and there were quite a few Buddhas in the annals of history.The first Buddha,however,is Black.Others were not.And there ya are.
    Last edited by ATACX GYM; 03-11-2011 at 03:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Traditional (Ancient) Training methods and the martial arts

    I appreciate your research. But at the end of the day who cares? All buddhas, black, white, indian, where men. They are dead. The world is falling apart right now and we are arguing race of a false god. wow!
    Pain is just weakness leaving the body.

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    Default Re: Traditional (Ancient) Training methods and the martial arts

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkC View Post
    In that case, Jesus Christ was obviously a European-looking man with brown hair and blue eyes, because there are lots of paintings depicting him that way, right?

    Christ Jesus' latter depictions show him that way,but his description in the Bible--hair of wool,skin of bronze--does not indicate what the much much later paintings and sculptures of him give as his phenotype.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkC View Post
    For that matter, while the ancient Egyptians were certainly African, that doesn't mean they were "black". There was only a short period of history when Egypt was ruled by people who were actually black africans.
    This is entirely untrue and exploded by MILLENIA of documentation to the contrary.You have simply repeated one of the worst lies and distortions ever made by racist psuedo-science and apologists for slavery and inhumane behaviour.They taught many good and well-meaning people their lies as truths,and thus warped many good people (I assume you're one of the good people) accordingly.Consider: how is it that in EVERY OTHER area of the world,there is no question about the race of the founders of various civilizations indigenous to that locale,but when we get to Africa...alluva sudden it's unbelievable that we Africans couldn't and didn't create magnificent civilizations all on our own and without any aid whatsoever from anyone at all? This in and of itself implies a deep racial inferiority,as the ABSOLUTE OPPOSITE is the case.ARICANS ARE THE ORIGINAL EGYPTIANS,ALL OTHERS ARE MERELY USURPERS AND PRETENDERS.Period.Full stop.

    "Egypt" as a term came about as an accident of hisotry.The Greeks--not being racist--referred to the Black African Pharoah Menes using their own tongue and not his actual name in his own language as "AIGYPTOS".Through an accident of history,that name was applied to the land he ruled.Furthermore,the Palermo Stone records Menes sallying forth from the African capital Nekheb and driving before him the wretched usurpers and invaders until they were utterly routed and vanquished from the land.There WAS NO SUCH THING AS EGYPT until Menes built his might city of Memphis--also known as Hikuptah,the "Mansion of the Soul of Ptah"--as a monument to his victory over the invaders of our land.The palettes and maceheads at Hierokonopolis confirm this along with the records of the time.

    What is MOST IMPORTANT to know about Khem/Kemt/Kemet/Chem/Chemi/Egypt is that it was forever tied to Ptah-Seti (Ethiopia) and for most of its early existence was a part of the Ethiopian empire in the exact same sense that California is part of the United States.There is no separating one from the other.

    I don't need Google-Fu.Everything I state can will do did shall stand up to anything that you and everyone you know combined can throw at it and already has stood up to scrutiny from people and groups over millenia who are better informed than you are,sir.Better informed than me too.I am pursuing my Ph.d. in African Studies.I have a WHOLE LOT MORE INFO than you do regarding this matter,as you obviously don't make this area of study a special branch of interest and focal point in your life because NOBODY reputable in the scientific community believes what you just stated in your post.And they know better to make such an assertion in public.That position was destroyed factually millenia ago.


    It makes us better at Kenpo not technically but it knowing this enriches us in the true sense that martial art (as I understand it) is supposed to enrich us--it makes us better human beings.It allows to appreciate other human beings and our deep interconnectedness; it fosters love harmony and peace.We wouldn't be in this somewhat contentious discussion if you'd been introduced to these facts and truths as opposed to the standard lies and reactionary dogma in place of truth which has been fed to all of us for so long with devastating divisive and destructive effect upon humanity as a whole.

    Furthermore,if we study Africa and recognize that she's the fount of martial arts too,then whatever martial knowledge we unearth from her can be added to our martial lineage and legacy in the here and now.We'll adapt it the same way that we adapted the ancient Oriental specific method of practicing their martial art to t he needs exigencies and tastes of our environment our culture and our times.
    Last edited by ATACX GYM; 03-11-2011 at 05:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Traditional (Ancient) Training methods and the martial arts

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormskenpo View Post
    I appreciate your research. But at the end of the day who cares? All buddhas, black, white, indian, where men. They are dead. The world is falling apart right now and we are arguing race of a false god. wow!

    "Those who do not read history are doomed to repeat it. Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of their predecessors are destined to repeat them." And Buddha isn't a God and never is represented as such.Buddha is a man who is "Enlightened". Buddha can also be a woman who is "Enlightened". If you're "Enlightened"? You're a Buddha.

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    Default Re: Traditional (Ancient) Training methods and the martial arts

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine brother! LOL!! There's nothing wrong with investigating any topic as long as you can present evidence to back up what you have to say.
    Yeah I know. Just seems kinda meaningless right know in light of the earthquakes, tsunamis, floods, and Saudi Arabia about to fall. However, if you don't have verifiable facts then you just have theories.
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    Default Re: Traditional (Ancient) Training methods and the martial arts

    Quote Originally Posted by ATACX GYM View Post
    "Those who do not read history are doomed to repeat it. Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of their predecessors are destined to repeat them." And Buddha isn't a God and never is represented as such.Buddha is a man who is "Enlightened". Buddha can also be a woman who is "Enlightened". If you're "Enlightened"? You're a Buddha.
    With all due respect sir, I am a student of history and science. I have read it. I understand where you are coming from. I agree on some points but not on all. As for buddha thing, it's a false religion and i have seen it represented as god before, right or wrong, who cares, if those folks didn't find THE WAY they are doomed. I AM NOT A BUDDHA....period!!!!!!!
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    Default Re: Traditional (Ancient) Training methods and the martial arts

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormskenpo View Post
    With all due respect sir, I am a student of history and science. I have read it. I understand where you are coming from. I agree on some points but not on all. As for buddha thing, it's a false religion and i have seen it represented as god before, right or wrong, who cares, if those folks didn't find THE WAY they are doomed. I AM NOT A BUDDHA....period!!!!!!!
    er, no, Buddhism is not a false religion.

    if you've got your favorite religion, by all means go with it. Nobody wants to tell you that you should do something else. But to state that Buddhism is a "false" religion, is simply nonsense. That line of discussion gets us all exactly nowhere.
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    Default Re: Traditional (Ancient) Training methods and the martial arts

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    er, no, Buddhism is not a false religion.

    if you've got your favorite religion, by all means go with it. Nobody wants to tell you that you should do something else. But to state that Buddhism is a "false" religion, is simply nonsense. That line of discussion gets us all exactly nowhere.
    I don't have a favorite religion. Religions are man made.

    "Buddhism (Pali/Sanskrit: बौद्ध धर्म Buddha Dharma) is a religion and philosophy encompassing a variety of traditions, beliefs and practices, largely based on teachings attributed to Siddhartha Gautama, commonly known as the Buddha (Pāli/Sanskrit "the awakened one"). The Buddha lived and taught in the northeastern Indian subcontinent some time between the 6th and 4th centuries BCE.[1] He is recognized by Buddhists as an awakened or enlightened teacher who shared his insights to help sentient beings end suffering (or dukkha), achieve nirvana, and escape what is seen as a cycle of suffering and rebirth."

    It is a religion. And by the very fact that it does NOT lift up the deity of Jesus Christ it is false.
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    Default Re: Traditional (Ancient) Training methods and the martial arts

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindside View Post
    This thread is going well, we have some fairly sensitive racial issues going on and now someone has called one of the major religions of the world a false religion. Yup, I sense great things....

    Can we please get back to documented evidence of use of sparring as a part of training or actual training regimens that were used. As far as I can tell, I am the only one so far who actually cited anything.

    thanks,

    Lamont
    So when did it become wrong to state my opinion? That's what this whole darn forum is about....opinions!!! Some facts, mostly opinions! Sorry that I may have gotten off subject a little.
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    Default Re: Traditional (Ancient) Training methods and the martial arts

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormskenpo View Post
    So when did it become wrong to state my opinion? That's what this whole darn forum is about....opinions!!! Some facts, mostly opinions! Sorry that I may have gotten off subject a little.
    Does your opinion have any bearing on the purpose of the thread? Do you think your opinion on the validity of that religion will aid anyone in determining the possible race of the first Buddha? Is it really helpful in any way, or do you think it will just aid in turning this thread into a bigger dumpster fire than it already is? Religious issues are sensitive for everyone, apparently you got one of your buttons pushed already, can we just avoid the topic?
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    Default Re: Traditional (Ancient) Training methods and the martial arts

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    With regards to martial arts, however, people at all times in the history of humanity, and in all cultures and in all places around the globe, have had need of martial training and technique, and so developed them. I do not believe it is a realistic position to say that all martial technique came from Africa. To say so suggests that all people outside of Africa had NOTHING, no way to fight and defend themselves, no way to attack and conquer their neighbors, no way to raid and pillage and whatnot, until the Africans showed up in their lands and taught them to do so. That suggestion simply lacks credibility on its face.

    All people developed their fighting methods. Many cultures did influence other cultures, and it is certainly possible that African fighting methods did either directly or indirectly influence fighting methods in Asia. But to suggest that Asia had no fighting techniques before the Africans showed them how, doesn't float. Just like the suggestion that Daruma started martial arts in China at the Shaolin Temple is nonsense. Regardless of what may or may not have happened at Shaolin in the 5th century or thereabouts, China had martial technique long before that.

    I think that we agree in certain areas but are using different terminology for it.I already noted that in order to have people survive,much less a civilization,there has to be a fighting system.That fighting system later developes into martial art. I never said nor intimated that the Orientals had nothing,because not only is that proveably NOT the case,it's imho a pretty stupid assertion to make right after I solidly championed the idea that in order to survive ANYWHERE you have to have a fighting system that--if it hangs around long enough and with the proper cultural influences--will become a martial ART.So yeah I already stated my belief several times over that all human beings have developed their own peculiar indigenous fighting system...although some may have been lost and some may have never developed to the point that we would call a martial ART.

    The first Dynasty in China which spawned the Terra-cotta warriors were African too but they didn't have a system as advanced as the martial arts subsequently became.They were hella effective for their time,though.The first Buddha came upon a civilization already in existence.Ergo,there were fighting systems prior to his arrival.Period.Further,it's not impossible to opine that the many disciplines that are much older than the first Buddha (like yoga in its complete form,including its combat expression) also found its way into Tibet and/or China,etc.

    What I'm talking about specifically is THE IMPACT upon these fledgling arts that the first Buddha had,and the fact that (if you go with the old stories) the introduction of the Buddha's exercises and movements (essentially martial yoga) became the foundation for the most famous and cherished martial arts in China,which in turn became the foundation for all the martial arts of the Orient.And the fact that a similar African martial system was already the foundation of the fighting systems of India,and had long been in existence in Africa.

    Does this rigidly mean that a African created what we call tai chi or White Eyebrow in its current form or the form that we've known it from say centuries back? Nope.Does it mean that there are arts which preceded tai chi and White Eyebrow and had similar concepts which travelled from Africa to the rest of the world and which subsequently gave rise to tai chi? Yep. Did Newton create the Space Shuttle Program? Nope.How bout rocket science? Nope,Newton didn't do that.Did the knowledge gleaned from transferring Newtonian Laws make a space program even wildly imaginable,and even plausible? Yep.Would there be a space program without knowledge of Newtonian Law? NO.And there ya are.

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    Default Re: Traditional (Ancient) Training methods and the martial arts

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindside View Post
    Does your opinion have any bearing on the purpose of the thread? Do you think your opinion on the validity of that religion will aid anyone in determining the possible race of the first Buddha? Is it really helpful in any way, or do you think it will just aid in turning this thread into a bigger dumpster fire than it already is? Religious issues are sensitive for everyone, apparently you got one of your buttons pushed already, can we just avoid the topic?


    can we PLEASE avoid the topic? Purtty please?

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    Default Re: Traditional (Ancient) Training methods and the martial arts

    avoided...
    Pain is just weakness leaving the body.

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    Default Re: Traditional (Ancient) Training methods and the martial arts

    I still haven't seen any solid references to most of the claims you make...other than in the BKF book, or on several websites which also offer no references that hold up. Please provide....

    BTW, ever heard of DNA? Makes the study of human migration patterns a little more precise.
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    Default Re: Traditional (Ancient) Training methods and the martial arts

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormskenpo View Post
    It is a religion. And by the very fact that it does NOT lift up the deity of Jesus Christ it is false.
    that would be YOUR favorite, not everyone else's.
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    Default Re: Traditional (Ancient) Training methods and the martial arts

    Quote Originally Posted by ATACX GYM View Post
    The first Dynasty in China which spawned the Terra-cotta warriors were African too...
    um, I'm gonna need to see some serious scholarly papers on that issue. I've been to the Terra Cotta site and I've seen the statues, and they definitely do not look African to me. I do not believe they were made by Africans...

    Does it mean that there are arts which preceded tai chi and White Eyebrow and had similar concepts which travelled from Africa to the rest of the world and which subsequently gave rise to tai chi? Yep.
    that's the part I don't believe holds up. I fully accept and believe there were sophisticated fighting arts in Africa, some of which may have pre-dated a lot of what happened in Asia (I've already pointed out that Mankind evolved in Africa and spread from there, so of course it's likely that things happened there that predated other areas), but I am doubtful of solid evidence that these methods gave rise to what happened in Asia. As I've already suggested, they could have influenced the Asian methods, but I'd say that claiming they gave rise to the Asian methods, I don't think that can be proven. That era of ancient history and pre-history is, in my opinion, just lost to us. I do not believe records ever existed that can nail down that kind of claim. Some of this stuff just gets lost in the haze of ancient pre-history and it cannot be adequately proven or dis-proven. It remains speculative.
    Michael


    de gustibus non disputante est.
    Negative Douche Bag Number One

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    Default Re: Traditional (Ancient) Training methods and the martial arts

    "Barbarians" were not "warriors"? Funny. The word barbarian originally meant anyone who didn't speak Greek. Ancient Celts, Germans, Persians, Turks weren't warriors?
    Funny.
    One reason the Romans (and for that matter the armies of Alexander) were able to defeat so many others was precisely because they fought like soldiers, as units, rather than as individual warriors. "Warrior" is a severely misused and overused term these days.
    "To be, rather than to seem"

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    "...I already watched the videos, and quite frankly, they're bullsh*t."

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