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Thread: Principle of the Month (Jan/Feb 06) - Torque

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    Thumbs up Re: Principle of the Month

    sure How about torque?? Good one to start out with, in plently of techniques!
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    Default Re: Principle of the Month

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    The forum has a "Technique of the Month" thread that allows members to disect and examine the self defense techniques of AK. What are your thoughts on having a "Principle of the Month" as well? The focus could be on one of the many principles of AK and open the floor to discussing those as well. =)
    I'm all for it!! As a new Blue belt, this would be nothing short of great education for me.

    Thanks for the idea!!

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    Default Re: Principle of the Month

    Torque - Twisting and rotating action used to position your body and muscles to work at mazimum efficiency. -- Ed Parker's Encyclopedia Of Kenpo by Ed Parker.

    So why is this principl so important to what we do in Kenpo.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Principle of the Month

    Well.....I know tourque is a product of rotation. Can you have tourque without rotation?

    Tourque is important in generating additional force to a maneuver. For example, when executing a reverse punch you transition from a neutral bow into a forward bow rotating your hips as you execute the strike. This motion adds additional power to your strike.

    I guess that was an obvious answer. =) The principle is also extremely important to the grappling side of the art as well..............
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Principle of the Month

    quote=Celtic_Crippler]Well.....I know torque is a product of rotation. Can you have torque without rotation?
    [/quote]

    I don't think so.

    torque1 (trk) [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/quintana/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]
    n.
    1. The moment of a force; the measure of a force's tendency to produce torsion and rotation about an axis, equal to the vector product of the radius vector from the axis of rotation to the point of application of the force and the force vector.
    2. A turning or twisting force.
    By definition rotation is required. Without rotation all you have is an application of direct force.

    Torque is important in generating additional force to a maneuver. For example, when executing a reverse punch you transition from a neutral bow into a forward bow rotating your hips as you execute the strike. This motion adds additional power to your strike.
    don't forget, not only are you rotating your torso into the forward bow generating additional force and reach but also the rotation of the fist at the last moment before impact allowing for increased speed and release of energy out of the first two knuckles.

    I guess that was an obvious answer. =) The principle is also extremely important to the grappling side of the art as well..............
    Agreed, I would say that it is a requirement for grappling and throws.

    Just look at all the applied circles required for an effective Kodagaishi (sp?) wrist throw.

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    Default Re: Principle of the Month

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad
    Torque - Twisting and rotating action used to position your body and muscles to work at mazimum efficiency. -- Ed Parker's Encyclopedia Of Kenpo by Ed Parker.

    So why is this principl so important to what we do in Kenpo.
    In addition to power generation, torque also represents movement in width. Turning your body reduces or increases your profile, and target area, with respect to your opponents position.

    Torque applied to the opponents body position can upset his ballance and reduce his available weapons, putting him at a disadvantage. Pulling, redirecting, and striking can turn his body.

    Given the above, it is a major factor in center line control (a topic that deserves its own thread as a principle of the month).

    Edit: Just a suggestion, make it "Principle or Concept of the Month" and you'll get more mileage out of it.
    Last edited by thedan; 01-11-2006 at 01:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Principle of the Month

    Are we talking about Torque and Counter-Torque??

    Would Parting Wings be a good example of both??

    How about some examples.
    What have I learned from this???

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    Default Re: Principle of the Month

    Any rotation, or movement for that matter, can affect your body alignment, width, height, and depth zones.

    More to ponder....

    Can tourqe be applied effectively on different planes? (Horizontal, Vertical, Diagonal...) How so?

    How does tourque aid in executing joint locks and twists? Throws? Sweeps?

    Is rotating on an axis in itself enough to generate tourque?

    =)
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Principle of the Month

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    Any rotation, or movement for that matter, can affect your body alignment, width, height, and depth zones.

    More to ponder....

    Can tourqe be applied effectively on different planes? (Horizontal, Vertical, Diagonal...) How so?

    How does tourque aid in executing joint locks and twists? Throws? Sweeps?

    Is rotating on an axis in itself enough to generate tourque?

    =)

    great questions... let me throw in my 2 copper.

    different planes.... hummm this very much relates to my thoughts on the lines represented in the universal symbol... when i first saw it I spent some time pondering it and realized that it is applicable as a sphere rather than a plane. I would really like to see a CAD design of that... if anyone is good with auto-cad.. if not in a complete sphere then at least on an x,y, and z access.


    as for locks, throws, and sweeps... it is essential. If you look at Aikido the whole concept is based in small circle creates large circle. If I use a wrist throw, the tighter the circle I apply to your joints, the greater the force resulting in your body. (assuming that your wrist does not shatter).

    Same with throws, O-gosh or Uki-Gosh (hip throws) employ the small circle of my torso turning to apply torque that results in the more forceful roll of your body and impending impact. My body being the center or axis, your body being the extended radius of the created circle. The tighter my axis, the greater the radius of our two circles.

    Sweeps or reaping, humm..... this is interesting... I just thought bout this.. your first question about torque on different planes... in O-Uchi-Gari (major inside reaping) the torque exits on an axis that is parallel to the ground passing through your hips as you reap with one leg and press their center mass with a hand.


    3rd question... ummm.... according to the definition in the dictionary... I think so... but that is a question for a physicist.

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    Default Re: Principle of the Month

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    Can tourqe be applied effectively on different planes? (Horizontal, Vertical, Diagonal...) How so?
    Sure. It is relative to the part being torqued.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    How does tourque aid in executing joint locks and twists? Throws? Sweeps?
    It can aid in unbalancing. It also allows you to overcome a larger opponent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    Is rotating on an axis in itself enough to generate tourque?
    By definition, yes. Although the amount my be to small to be effective.

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    Default Re: Principle of the Month

    Dang, CC, I was about to log off, then you asked this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    Any rotation, or movement for that matter, can affect your body alignment, width, height, and depth zones.
    More to ponder....
    Can tourqe be applied effectively on different planes? (Horizontal, Vertical, Diagonal...) How so?
    How does tourque aid in executing joint locks and twists? Throws? Sweeps?
    Is rotating on an axis in itself enough to generate tourque?

    =)
    All three major power principles are inherent in, and can be developed from, each other. Simply turning is not effective torque with respect to power. It may, however, position you better, and so fits the definition posted by RB: Torque - Twisting and rotating action used to position your body and muscles to work at mazimum efficiency. -- Ed Parker's Encyclopedia Of Kenpo by Ed Parker.

    Torque can be applied effectively in all planes, depending on the situation and what you want to accomplish. Your example/question about joint locks is a good example. Torque is occuring at many different places and planes. Your body turns for position and possibly to add power to position the opponent. Your hand(s) torque for both power and to position him. His extremity is torqued into the lock. All this is transmitted to his center line both as power and his own movement to try to reduce pain. Both of you are moving through a multitude of angles/planes as you apply a single joint lock. I wouldn't even want to consider counters and lock flow. And you have to factor in forces like leverageing, pushing or pulling, etc. Same applies to throws and sweeps.

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    Default Re: Principle of the Month

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad
    Torque - Twisting and rotating action used to position your body and muscles to work at mazimum efficiency. -- Ed Parker's Encyclopedia Of Kenpo by Ed Parker.

    So why is this principl so important to what we do in Kenpo.
    Torquing generates power, and I know I can vowge (I know I spelt that wrong) for everyone the is vertically challanged such as myself, this helps us out big time.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

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    Default Re: Principle of the Month (Jan/Feb 06) - Torque

    "Claps"

    Wonderful! I love getting different perspectives. All very good insights into the principle of torque and how it applies to Kenpo!

    BTW, years ago my best friend drew out the Universal pattern on Auto-Cad so I could use it to get a tattoo. I'm doubtful he still has it though.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Principle of the Month (Jan/Feb 06) - Torque

    When I talk about tourque in class, I have my students do the twist, or Ill call out "be like Elvis and move those hips!"

    The adults seem to enjoy that ^_^*
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    Default Re: Principle of the Month (Jan/Feb 06) - Torque

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyu
    When I talk about tourque in class, I have my students do the twist, or Ill call out "be like Elvis and move those hips!"

    The adults seem to enjoy that ^_^*
    Haha we use an Elvis the Pelvis analogy from time to time, lol! Just to show people "it's all in the hips" - Happy Gilmore quote lol
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    Default Re: Principle of the Month (Jan/Feb 06) - Torque

    I tell 'em they gotta have a lil "King" in them. Hunka-hunka...=)
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Principle of the Month (Jan/Feb 06) - Torque

    Yes, but I am waiting for that blank expression and the question of... Elvis? Isn't he that fat guy in the ugly outfit that people dress up as in Vegas?

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    Default Re: Principle of the Month (Jan/Feb 06) - Torque

    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter
    Haha we use an Elvis the Pelvis analogy from time to time, lol! Just to show people "it's all in the hips" - Happy Gilmore quote lol
    LOL "just tap it in, just tap it in, give it a little tappy." Great movie
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


    "Praying Mantis, very good. . . For catching bugs." --Jackie Chan

    "A horse stance is great for taking a dump" --Jet Li

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    Default Re: Principle of the Month (Jan/Feb 06) - Torque

    I know this is an old topic, but I could resist.

    The principle of torque when I apply it to the hips starts in the feet. In our basic stances we place outward torque to our feet , sort of like screwing the feet into the ground. Feet need to be placed in the correct position in order to achieve the maximum benefit. Front foot is pointed toward the target and the back foot is placed at 45 degrees with the back knee slightly bent. The hip is back at a 45 degree angle also. This gives you a rooted feeling and a more solid stance.

    To rotate the hip forward (reverse punch) change the torque of the back foot from outward to inward, which causes the knee to straighten , which in turn causes the hip to snap forward executing your punch.

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    Default Re: Principle of the Month (Jan/Feb 06) - Torque

    In my experience with Mr. Parker we considered torque and body rotation as two separate but related principles. I think the reason was to break down a huge and all encompassing principle into smaller bites so that it would be easier to dissect and study.
    We separated it thus; Body rotation as a primary power source in one of the body's three dimensions (width) and torque being a secondary power source occurring in the limbs.
    Of course there is some cross over in the two principles because body rotation is body torque.
    The reason for the separation is that the two principles cover a vast array of relationships to motion. Many pages can be written about torque and counter torque in the wrists and ankles. Mr. Parker's "The ankle is the wrist of the foot" is one of my favorite sayings.
    If one could write 20 pages on torque they could write a book on body rotation.
    One of my favorite drills was to have students do these exercises on torque and body rotation. I called them synchronization drills.
    1. From a cat stance. With the palm facing inward, pivot the front leg into a neutral stance and torque the wrist to an outward sword hand.
    2. Now position the arm palm outward and somewhat extended in front of the shoulder. Pivot the front leg into a neutral stance and torque the wrist to an inward block or sword hand.
    3. Reverse the stance so that the front leg is in the neutral position and the rear foot is pivoted out with the heal up. Now pivot the back leg and drop into a neutral as you execute the sword hand or block.
    4. Follow the same process using the inward block as in step 2.
    5. Advance the drill by including the rear checking hand. From the positional check position, torque the hand to the chest and back in perfect timing with the other hand and foot. Learning to tense and relax at the proper moment allows this hand to rebound back into checking position. Only the rebounding check goes back to the starting position. The rest of the body remains in the neutral position. Repeat the 4 previous drills with this in mind.
    6. Advance the the drill further by starting with both feet in the pre- pivoted position. Now both hands and both feet are pivoting and torquing together.
    7. Now start with the feet together in the natural position and step back into the neutral while executing the 4 different Sync drills.
    8. Now start with the feet together in the natural position and step forward into the neutral while executing the 4 different Sync drills.

    Each drill can be done with only one principle to focus on. For example;
    a. The front wrist torque
    b. Front ankle torque.
    c. Rear wrist torque
    d. Rear ankle torque
    e. Breathing , long locked out, short locked out
    f. Tensing and relaxing at the proper moment
    g. Marriage of gravity, Front foot/Back foot/Both feet
    H. Settling
    I. Point of origin
    J. Proper weapons
    K. Toe heel line
    L. Knee heel line
    m. Rebounding positional check
    n. Use a body or target to strike
    As you can see the options are limitless.
    I found few drills to be as useful in getting the beginner to synchronize his/her body. For advanced students it works great for refining sync and broadening the scope of focus on several principles at once.

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