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Thread: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

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    Question does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    does EPAK have DM''s like shaolin kempo has?

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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Ed Parker's American Kenpo is comprised of 154 Self defense techniques, 96 extensions to those techniques along with forms, sets and free style.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by shaolinmonkmark View Post
    does EPAK have DM''s like shaolin kempo has?
    Depends on what you're actually talking about. Self Defense techniques, or specific moves for defense. Almost all techniques start defensive in response to an attack and may have a couple of defensive moves within them but once the attack happens, most of it is offensive in nature.
    Be careful what you say, some may take it the wrong way.

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    Thumbs up Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    We have 108 shaolin dM's from the southern temple( practice both left and right sided) ,And at least 34 forms.We have kempo punch techniques, called "Kempos", like "Thundering hammers," but we have more moves added to it, big time!
    Same with "parting the wings", "unfriendly wings".

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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Could you describe in a little more detail just what you mean by "108 Shaolin DMs"? What is their purpose, how are they used, perhaps give a description of what you are doing with one of the shorter ones. step-by-step?
    Michael


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    Negative Douche Bag Number One

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    Thumbs up Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    all of the dm's from the temple arew located here:http://home.comcast.net/~matthewabar...56/page56.html
    (note: there are only videos in forms, and do click on black belt forms.)
    Please credit Master Matt Barnes, Jesse Dwire, and Ken warner.
    (please note, the forms here under fred Villari, not Nick Cerio's or USSD's)
    We also do not have the full 108, we are missing about 14 of them(9th degrees and above do not like to discuss those ones we are missing.)
    As for the history of the 108 dms:
    http://www.chuanfamartialarts.com/id8.html
    such as white belt level dm#6:as oppopnent steps in with right punch to face , perform a right frontball kick to solar plexus, right leg returns, cross over left foot, step out with left foot, hands on guard.

    The shaolin originally only had 108 of these maneuvers, and had built the infamous "Lohan hall"
    In which you had to go to all the chambers, and were attacked by crazy wooden dummies armed with knives,clubs, and hammers.
    If you did the wrong technique, you were either killed or seriously unjured.
    Those are the same Shaolin DM's we have today.

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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    The "defense maneuvers" in Shaolin kempo are structured similarly to the "techniques" of AK, and serve a similar role in the system.

    Depending on where and when any given school branched off the main trunk of SKK (if there is such a thing) they will do 26, 40, 46, 108 or more of the DMs and "kempos". "Kempos" are just DMs that are not as widely accepted, they are like branch-specific DMs that the early practitioners on that branch passed on.

    SKK is much more fragmented than AK if you can believe that LOL.

    The "Founder" of my particular flavor of SKK re-organized it a bit, so instead of 108 DMs we have:
    26 DMs vs punch or kick
    15 DMs vs grabs or grapples
    10 DMs vs knife
    10 DMs vs club
    10 Dms vs gun
    We also have 2 techniques for each of the 5 animals - I think these are just kindof gimmicky stuff for the kids though, the adults typically don't learn them.

    We don't have "extensions" although some of the "kempos" are really extensions to some of the DMs.

    Most SKK schools practice the Pinan kata or some variation on them. Most also practice the kata created by Sonny Gascon and George Pesare known simply as Kata 1, Kata 2 .. Kata 7 (or in some schools it is "1 Kata", "2 Kata" etc). Since the head of my system was close to Lou Angel (goju ryu karate) we also, after 1st black, do a number of goju kata: sanchin, seisan, suparunpai... other SKK schools do different stuff, mostly forms created by Fred Villari. See the web site Mark linked for videos of some of these.

    We have "blocking systems", similar to "sets" in AK : 8 Point Blocking System, 10 Point, 16 Point. Very basic drills with no footwork.

    So, I hope that helps shed some light on the similar and different structures of our 2 styles. There are some fundamental differences in how the arts are taught that I might have time to address later, at least from my limited experience...

    -David
    -David C
    http://www.kungfubooksonline.com

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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by shaolinmonkmark View Post
    We have 108 shaolin dM's from the southern temple( practice both left and right sided) ,And at least 34 forms.We have kempo punch techniques, called "Kempos", like "Thundering hammers," but we have more moves added to it, big time!
    Same with "parting the wings", "unfriendly wings".

    Mark, these techniques were made up by Sonny Gascon and the early KGS guys (based on the kajukenbo they had learned), by George Pesare, by Nick Cerio, and Fred Villari, Demasco and Mattera. I don't know if you are in a USSD school or in a SKK offshoot like me, but I promise you, this stuff in no way came to you from the Shaolin Temple. More like Rhode Island, Masschusettes, and Hawaii...

    We even have some information now on where Villari actually got his exposure to any Chinese Martial Arts which led to him calling his style "SHAOLIN Kempo" - it was NOT in China it was in BOSTON. I know you are on MAP there is a current thread there on it...
    -David C
    http://www.kungfubooksonline.com

    "...while you guys are arguing, I'm on the grind."
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    "If you don't ask the right questions, I can't give you the answers, and if you don't know the right question to ask, you're not ready for the answers"
    -Ed Parker Sr.

    "For many a 'system' is just a bunch of techniques. It should be much, much more than that..."
    - Doc Chapel

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to DavidCC For This Useful Post:

    HKphooey (09-27-2007)

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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by shaolinmonkmark View Post
    all of the dm's from the temple arew located here:http://home.comcast.net/~matthewabar...56/page56.html
    (note: there are only videos in forms, and do click on black belt forms.)
    Please credit Master Matt Barnes, Jesse Dwire, and Ken warner.
    (please note, the forms here under fred Villari, not Nick Cerio's or USSD's)
    We also do not have the full 108, we are missing about 14 of them(9th degrees and above do not like to discuss those ones we are missing.)
    As for the history of the 108 dms:
    http://www.chuanfamartialarts.com/id8.html
    such as white belt level dm#6:as oppopnent steps in with right punch to face , perform a right frontball kick to solar plexus, right leg returns, cross over left foot, step out with left foot, hands on guard.

    The shaolin originally only had 108 of these maneuvers, and had built the infamous "Lohan hall"
    In which you had to go to all the chambers, and were attacked by crazy wooden dummies armed with knives,clubs, and hammers.
    If you did the wrong technique, you were either killed or seriously unjured.
    Those are the same Shaolin DM's we have today.
    Mark, Mark, Mark my brother... please... listen...

    That's just a movie


    I don't know what to make of Dennis Fitch. If you are in his organization then what I wrote earlier about Gascon, Villari etc may not apply to what you are doing. It is impossible to know form his website becasue he only talks aobut what he teaches not what he was taught, although he does say he blended "Hawaiian Kempo" and "White Crane Tai Chi" in the 60s... So maybe that was kajukenbo or maybe Karazenpo or even Kosho. Or mayeb he was a USSD guy aand it is all made up who knows.

    But taking his website as fact, Hawaiian kempo is right there. that gets you to Emperado and Kajukenbo, Chow & Mitose. NOT THE SHAOLIN TEMPLE.



    If you want to know the real history of Shaolin kempo, let me know i will point you to some things to read... unless you are under Fitch I don't know wherre he came from. but if you are SKK or USSD etc then that story is well documented.
    -David C
    http://www.kungfubooksonline.com

    "...while you guys are arguing, I'm on the grind."
    - an anonymous brick puncher

    "If you don't ask the right questions, I can't give you the answers, and if you don't know the right question to ask, you're not ready for the answers"
    -Ed Parker Sr.

    "For many a 'system' is just a bunch of techniques. It should be much, much more than that..."
    - Doc Chapel

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    Thumbs up Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    thanks david cc,
    they asked and i typed out what everyone had been telling me.
    So, they can go figure the history/techniques on their own.
    My lineage is Nick Cerio's, in which they claim chow's father was a shaolin kungfu student learning 5 animal style.
    I have researched this and am still 50/50 about it.
    One things for sure though, i still love this art, and will continue to practice it.

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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by shaolinmonkmark View Post
    thanks david cc,
    they asked and i typed out what everyone had been telling me.
    So, they can go figure the history/techniques on their own.
    My lineage is Nick Cerio's, in which they claim chow's father was a shaolin kungfu student learning 5 animal style.
    I have researched this and am still 50/50 about it.
    One things for sure though, i still love this art, and will continue to practice it.
    I am also unsure about where Chow got his training, and what was his father trained in. BUT Cerio had already spent years with Pesare before he ever met Chow... I don't think many of the actual techniques handed down in NCK were taught by Prof. Chow. But I don't know...

    I think you found one right answer though: "One things for sure though, i still love this art, and will continue to practice it."

    Although I had a falling out with this guy a while back, he is an expert on the evolution of our style, and knew Nick Cerio and all that... ask this guy about the creation of NCK techniques: Joe Shuras jshuras@hotmail.com. Also ask over at MAP look up user "Meijin10" he was on the scene when Nick Cerio was coming up and might have some good info on that as well.

    There are so many lies told to sell Shaolin Kempo Karate but if you know the right people you can get the real story. It's not as fantastic as the Shaolin Temple Royal Guards mythology bull, but it is the truth, and it is pretty bad-ass on its own anyway.

    -D
    -David C
    http://www.kungfubooksonline.com

    "...while you guys are arguing, I'm on the grind."
    - an anonymous brick puncher

    "If you don't ask the right questions, I can't give you the answers, and if you don't know the right question to ask, you're not ready for the answers"
    -Ed Parker Sr.

    "For many a 'system' is just a bunch of techniques. It should be much, much more than that..."
    - Doc Chapel

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    Thumbs up Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    one thing i have heard was this:
    Chow only taught DM's 1 thru 64, he didn't want to promote any one higher or near his "grandmaster" status.
    So , when Cerio was with Chow, Allegedly, Chow only taught him those.
    True, NCK was with pesare and the rest , but ask yourself this," where did the other 44 come from then?"
    Some people say that Villari was NCK's greatest and most deadliest pupil, and NCK had all 108 from Chow, but never taught anyone the DM's past 60, except Villari,others claim that they "Both" created them, others go along with Villari saying he actually went to the shaolin temple, and was taught the rest by a Shaolin Grandmaster.
    And others claim he just simply "Made the rest up."
    So, that's all the info i have, i am not going to separate fact from fiction, but i will say that NCK was definently awesome when he was alive, and i love his art.
    Now, the info about Chow's father learning shaolin 5 animal style and being a senior shaolin monk yatti yatti, is still being debated right now, and conclusively, i am at 50/50, truthfully.

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    Thumbs up for DavidCC

    this is from someone who dug this up, from another master who has done alot of research:

    These posts came from Alan J Cunningham on MartialTalk.com in the thread "Who is Fred Villari". Since I'm not interested in stepping on anyone's toes at this moment, if asked I will delete this post, but since they were also put in a forum that anyone can join, I'll post them.

    Post#: 741

    Quote:
    I have asked a few of the Masters and others involved if I could use their names on the forum, I cannot post their response to me so I will post w/o their names.
    Back in the early 70's one of Freds V had an associate whose wife was allowed entrance into the outer circle of the chinese masters inner circle. She was taught Kung Fu material directly by these chinese masters. She began showing what she had learned to a few of the USSD seniors and other USSD black belts. After awhile a few USSD seniors were introduced to the Chinese masters and began learning Kung Fu and Tai-Chi. I know that Fred V. met with a few of these masters however I do not know if he trained with them or not. Even Steve Demasco started learning Kung Fu from a chinese master around 1978 to approx. 1980-81.
    Many of the USSD school owners liked the Kung Fu material and added it into their own "in house" training programs. Many of the very early staff forms were of Kung Fu origins.
    One of Fred's , (by marrage), relatives had access to a alledged Chinese master who either lived on the mainland or possibly Hong Kong. Around the time when Fred V. was a 5th Dan he traveled up to Canada for a week or so to meet with this master. This meeting is another story.
    Bottom line,
    Fred V. directly/indirectly, was influneced by the Kung Fu material that his seniors learned from Bostons Chinatown community.


    Post#: 744


    Quote:
    Matt,
    The China Town thing is correct and very accurate. I was part of the group that went in there to train. I was and still am friends with the person that opened the China Town door for everyone. Steve D. developed his classic wide stance from his training in these Boston China Town schools. Steve D. blew his knee out real bad during the very late 70's. It was a young chinese master who, using chinese medicen & therapy who is responsable for repairing Steves D. damaged knee. This young master has since moved his school into the Quincy area. A former student of mine still trains under this Chinese master and runs a school for him in my home town.
    This is not a West Indies type story, many of us were there and participated in these events. I too am on the outer part of the inner circle, I know everyone that was involved,(check my schools photo section).
    Before Fred was a 10th he had a few Shodans, Nidans and later on a few Sandans.
    I will try to located the name of the master from China, it was a very long time ago so there are no guarantee's on this one.

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    Thumbs up Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Now, we go back to this point:
    #1) Did Chow really have a father who studied and was a shaolin kungfu practioner /zen priest of china, who had the 108 dm's, and passed down to Chow? (credit www.karaho.com history)
    #2) Were these taught to Nick Cerio, or, only up to DM 62, and cerio went and learned the rest from this "Chinese Master"
    #3 ) Did Cerio and Villari make the rest up together?
    #4 ) Did Villari and the rest of these "Inner circle" masters, learn all 108 DM's from this "Chinese Master"?

    This is where i have been at a stale mate, now, on our history so far.
    Until we can get the chinese master's name and whereabouts,
    i guess we will truly have the answers.

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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Duplicate
    The above is just my opinion.

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    Default DM's

    Now, we go back to this point:
    #1) Did Chow really have a father who studied and was a shaolin kungfu practioner /zen priest of china, who had the 108 dm's, and passed down to Chow? (credit www.karaho.com history)
    #2) Were these taught to Nick Cerio, or, only up to DM 62, and cerio went and learned the rest from this "Chinese Master"
    #3 ) Did Cerio and Villari make the rest up together?
    #4 ) Did Villari and the rest of these "Inner circle" masters, learn all 108 DM's from this "Chinese Master"?
    [/I][/I]


    1. Yes he learned Kung-FU from his father in my opinion but I have NO IDEA where you got the 108 dm's part. The core of Professor Chow's teaching lies in "Professor Chow's techniques" of which there are 12 total.[/I]

    2. No, see #1

    3. I have no idea

    4. No idea again
    Last edited by Dianhsuhe; 09-28-2007 at 05:49 PM. Reason: SPacing
    The above is just my opinion.

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    Thumbs up Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    check out my pm, Dian, if ya get a chance, research what i sent on your own, it is an eye opener!

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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by shaolinmonkmark View Post
    Now, we go back to this point:
    #1) Did Chow really have a father who studied and was a shaolin kungfu practioner /zen priest of china, who had the 108 dm's, and passed down to Chow? (credit www.karaho.com history)
    #2) Were these taught to Nick Cerio, or, only up to DM 62, and cerio went and learned the rest from this "Chinese Master"
    #3 ) Did Cerio and Villari make the rest up together?
    #4 ) Did Villari and the rest of these "Inner circle" masters, learn all 108 DM's from this "Chinese Master"?

    This is where i have been at a stale mate, now, on our history so far.
    Until we can get the chinese master's name and whereabouts,
    i guess we will truly have the answers.
    Mark, the posts my Mr. Cunningham are referring to VILLARI not CERIO. Villari met these Chinese guys after he left CERIO.

    I just sent off an email to Nick Cerio's original kempo teacher about the origin of the DMs. When he replies I will tell you what I learn (bonus points for you Mark if you know his name )
    -David C
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    - Doc Chapel

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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    I got a reply before Mark saw the thread

    I AM THE FOUNDER OF KENPO/KEMPO KARATE IN NEW ENGLAND, I TAUGHT NICK CERIO, HE CHANGED SOME AND TAUGHT VILLARI, VILLARI COMPLETELY WATERD IT DOWN AND THE REST IS HISTORY..
    SGP
    Which appears to be that Nick Cerio did NOT learn the DMs from CHOW (as was pointed out above, Chow only taught 12 techniques) but he learned them from S. George Pesare, the Founder of Kempo in New England.

    I have recently ordered his historical footage DVD, perhaps it will show some of his early students practicing recognizable DMs

    -D
    -David C
    http://www.kungfubooksonline.com

    "...while you guys are arguing, I'm on the grind."
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    "If you don't ask the right questions, I can't give you the answers, and if you don't know the right question to ask, you're not ready for the answers"
    -Ed Parker Sr.

    "For many a 'system' is just a bunch of techniques. It should be much, much more than that..."
    - Doc Chapel

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    Thumbs up Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    i was originally told that chow only taught dm's 1 thru about 60, and that was it.
    Gotta love history, right?

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