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Thread: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

  1. #61
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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    Did anybody notice the lack of synchronous coordination and cohesive alignment in the monk doing the Shih-pa Lohan Xu? Awful. Like he just finished learning it, and never practices. But the pretty colors and shaved head loan a piece of cultural cerdibility to an otherwise poor representation of a good exercise floor pattern.

    I wonder how much of this happens when we take otherwise marginal martial artists, and wrap them up in the trappings of funny colored belts, all tied up nice with a bow?

    Just 40 years ago, you didn't have to be good to be famous; you just had to be first, and have a good schtick. The field sure has changed.
    Yeah - I didn't find a good example . . . but it was an example

  2. #62
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    Thumbs up Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    My style is Nick Cerio's kempo, and yes, we have the 108 dm's.
    The way Villari teaches his, and his forms, is alot different then the way we do ours, trust me!



    Quote Originally Posted by Shaolindelt View Post
    Trust me, I didn't forget Cerio was Villari's teacher. What I was referring to was that the original Combinations/DMs were taken by Cerio and Villari, and they continued the development. Eventually, Villari took over creating the rest of the Combinations/DMs on his own after he split away from Nick Cerio. To my knowledge, Nick Cerio's Kenpo does not teach 108 Combinations, and had little to do with their development by Villari in SKK after 26. (I heard reports that Cerio had a hand in them up to 40, but that was it).



    Not sure I ever said this. In any case though, I'll relent to popular culture on this one. I have heard completely mixed reviews on it ranging from never existing, 18, 108, to just a few guys in robes. In any case, the number is based on the 18 Hands of Lohan, reported to be the oldest formal system of Shaolin Kung-Fu, based on the Arhat set taught by Bodhidharma to the Shaolin monks. This was letter expanded (tripled) to a 54 movement set and then doubled to 108. The 108 set still exists today and while I have not personally gotten to train in or see it all, here's a link to the shorter 18:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9gNy...eature=related

    And I have to say, I could pick out individual elements that I could link to Combos 1-18 . . . but . . . they aren't derived from it in any manner that could be construed as producing what SKK has now.




    I'll give you they've been changed over time, and I'll even back off a little here. I never trained under Chow. I never trained directly under anyone who trained directly under Chow. However, in seeing the arts that have proliferated from Chow's line, I don't see any evidence that Chow taught these Combinations/DMs as a 108 secret set. From what it sounds like, Chow taught random stuff all the time. I'm sure you can find elements of Chow's teachings in Combination 30, but I'd be surprised if he could have explained it a few weeks after going over it. From what I've heard, Chow seemed to teach on a highly theoritical level, not in concrete, commercial techniques. For him to have had a system of 108 set techniques seems rather contrived. Mr. Gibson talks of GM Kuoha and I believe a 12 technique set. That seems more reasonable to keep track of and share, and I would even venture to argue that this might be in the later period of Chow's teachings (after the Cerio/Villari lineage had already moved away from WKS Chow).

    In any case, the statement



    I can agree with. But more than 50% of these 108 are/were the creation of Fred Villari, and have little to nothing to do with 18 Hands of Lohan, of which the legendary Shaolin Temple Hall of Dummies, and the number 108, would have been based upon.

  3. #63
    shaolinmonkmark is offline
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    Thumbs up Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    To me, it looked liked he was slowing it down, so we could see what his move set was.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    Did anybody notice the lack of synchronous coordination and cohesive alignment in the monk doing the Shih-pa Lohan Xu? Awful. Like he just finished learning it, and never practices. But the pretty colors and shaved head loan a piece of cultural cerdibility to an otherwise poor representation of a good exercise floor pattern.

    I wonder how much of this happens when we take otherwise marginal martial artists, and wrap them up in the trappings of funny colored belts, all tied up nice with a bow?

    Just 40 years ago, you didn't have to be good to be famous; you just had to be first, and have a good schtick. The field sure has changed.

  4. #64
    shaolinmonkmark is offline
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    Thumbs up Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    there was 36 chambers, 3 "Dummy robots" in each, for a total of 108 dms.
    According to Shaolin, you had to know all 108 based together as 5 animal style, to pass though all of them.

    The Ordeal of the Lohan Hall.
    Tradition tells of the Fukien Province monastery contained the 36 chambers or levels of martial arts' instruction and the infamous Lohan Hall (also known as Priest-Scholar Hall and Den of the Wooden Men). Upon entering the Lohan Hall, the graduate student fought 108 mechanical wooden dummies armed with knives, spears and clubs triggered by the student's body movements. If the student survived, they had to make their way through an opening blocked by a 5OO-pound metal urn containing red-hot coals. Gripping the urn in their forearms, the student had to slide the urn to create an exit. In the process, he branded his forearms with the badges of the Shaolin master, the Dragon and the Tiger.








    Quote Originally Posted by Shaolindelt View Post
    Yeah - I didn't find a good example . . . but it was an example

  5. #65
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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by shaolinmonkmark View Post
    there was 36 chambers, 3 "Dummy robots" in each, for a total of 108 dms.
    According to Shaolin, you had to know all 108 based together as 5 animal style, to pass though all of them.

    The Ordeal of the Lohan Hall.
    Tradition tells of the Fukien Province monastery contained the 36 chambers or levels of martial arts' instruction and the infamous Lohan Hall (also known as Priest-Scholar Hall and Den of the Wooden Men). Upon entering the Lohan Hall, the graduate student fought 108 mechanical wooden dummies armed with knives, spears and clubs triggered by the student's body movements. If the student survived, they had to make their way through an opening blocked by a 5OO-pound metal urn containing red-hot coals. Gripping the urn in their forearms, the student had to slide the urn to create an exit. In the process, he branded his forearms with the badges of the Shaolin master, the Dragon and the Tiger.
    Are you aware that there has been no evidence of these chambers ever even existing?


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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Seriously. Nobody has bought that contrived fiction for decades. How fitting that we have this discussion on the day of Carradines passage, since that show was singularly responsible for imprinting the stubborness of this idea in the minds of the populace.

    What we do know about xiaolin is that Ming loyalists sought refuge there after dissolution by the Manchu's, and plotted their return to power within its sanctuary, including martial practices and the training of guerilla fighters for their cause. The ruling dynasty caught wind of the dealings, and several times razed xiaolin as punishment for harboring fugitives and anti-government factions. BUT!!!! (and here's the part people tend to miss out on), xiaolin was only one of several sects that harbored Ming loyalists. They moved in to several temples. Kinda like saying some hid in the Baptist churches basement, while others hid in the Lutheran basement, and still others hid in the Presbyterian and Catholic basements.

    Shaolin was just a Buddhist branch with regional temples, made most famous in kung-fu because of attempts by survivors of its destruction to re-form a viable rebellion after the temple destruction. Followed by the fame of the TV series.

    Shaolin kung-fu was nothing more than the distilled studies of the military guys who hid and trained in the shaolin temple. There are/were multiple disciplines refined and distilled by other guys, hiding in other temples, and their lineages are generally reflected in the names which would translate into things like "Presbyterian Basement Kung-Fu", or "Catholic Basement Kung-Fu". And in the deserts, and in the mountains, and so on.

    18 hands was a series of exercises, presumably started by the founder of xaoilin sect to aid them in developing the physical fitness to stay awake during meditation. In deference to the memory of that contribution, forms are named in memory of Lo Han, to honor him for stating Shaolin sect...which, at LoHans time, was not harboring military fugitives; ratrher, only monks who were newly recruited to this then-new religion. LoHan is another name for Boddhidharma, the Buddhist saint responsible for evangalizing Buddhism throughout the far reaches of China, and for influencing it's leaders to adopt Buddhist dogma over prior trains of thought; not a military organizer or unarmed combat genius. The infiltration of Shaolin would not be for many years to come. We can't keep moves straight from one generation to the next, when the original practitioners are still alive and teaching; if you think some mysterious 108 DM's have survived for centuries, you're high.

    Moreover, there was never one xiaolin system; there have always been multiple disciplines trained under the auspices of it. It was simply a name to let people be able to trace their lineages back to the basement their martial forefathers trained and plotted in, as a matter of clan and national pride. Efforts have been made within the last couple generations to combine schools and styles that hearken back to xiaolin, in the hope of finding something more "pure" in the mix. Among them were the formation of the cholifut systems, where multiple family systems tracing themselves back to xiaolin were combined in the hopes of creating an uber-style. And unless your DM's look an awful lot like this stuff...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4qoCOC_DD8 (might wanna watch with sound off unless you like scratch)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BbWHwDIGGg (where the term "hatchet man" came from, and where the kenpo crest got the image-influence of the Axe from. Also a form we are supposed to keep in mind when doing handswords, executing them with "through, not to" learned from swinging ridiculously large hatchets)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHJj-wWturE
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL108-I-vlA (for anyone wondering how Mr. P learned explosiveness from Wongs Choilifut, each of these movements is easily found in the lists of Secrets of Chinese Karate...notice the larger arm circles, powerd from the waist, through the shoulders)

    ...then they are not xiaolin.

    Now. Whose versions of history should I trust...those born of Hollywood or Shaw Brothers scripts; those contrived by white guys trying to expand their pocketbooks by adding credence to their claims; or those from the senior disciples of one of the most influential and pristine kung-fu clans in San Francisco's Chinatown, founded by one of the no-foolin guru's of a Gathering of the Clans system in the heyday of the railroad coolies & gold rush, where lineage lore is maintained like religion?

    This does not diminish the effectiveness of DM's one may have studied; it does seek to seperate fact from fiction in claims about origination. Something doesn't have to be old to be good. Watching GGM Wongs Quan Dao form, even though his structure is sound, he ain't flashy enough to even place in one of today's tournaments...not enough gymnastic backflips. So one could simply dismiss their information with a "what would they know?"
    Last edited by Dr. Dave in da house; 06-04-2009 at 01:25 PM.
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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    And since even zealots are prone to confabulation...

    it appears the Boddhidhamra connection is also a confabulation:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaolin_Monastery
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    And since even zealots are prone to confabulation...

    it appears the Boddhidhamra connection is also a confabulation:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaolin_Monastery
    Not that I would trust Wikipedia or YouTube . . .

  11. #69
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    Thumbs up Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    So, is it safe to say we all have kempo roots from china or not?
    LOL!
    i still believe in the lohan halls/108 dm's.
    That's for me.
    As for the rest hey, you have your art, so be it, but i believe we can agree to some extant (more than most to others)
    that at least part of kempo did come from china.
    agree or disagree?

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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by shaolinmonkmark View Post
    there was 36 chambers, 3 "Dummy robots" in each, for a total of 108 dms.
    According to Shaolin, you had to know all 108 based together as 5 animal style, to pass though all of them.

    The Ordeal of the Lohan Hall.
    Tradition tells of the Fukien Province monastery contained the 36 chambers or levels of martial arts' instruction and the infamous Lohan Hall (also known as Priest-Scholar Hall and Den of the Wooden Men). Upon entering the Lohan Hall, the graduate student fought 108 mechanical wooden dummies armed with knives, spears and clubs triggered by the student's body movements. If the student survived, they had to make their way through an opening blocked by a 5OO-pound metal urn containing red-hot coals. Gripping the urn in their forearms, the student had to slide the urn to create an exit. In the process, he branded his forearms with the badges of the Shaolin master, the Dragon and the Tiger.
    I have that on DVD, it's awesome
    -David C
    http://www.kungfubooksonline.com

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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by shaolinmonkmark View Post
    So, is it safe to say we all have kempo roots from china or not?
    LOL!
    i still believe in the lohan halls/108 dm's.
    That's for me.
    As for the rest hey, you have your art, so be it, but i believe we can agree to some extant (more than most to others)
    that at least part of kempo did come from china.
    agree or disagree?
    I understand that in Japan, the word translated as "Kempo" implies that the style being described has Chinese origins. but I am not a Japanese speaker so I might be wrong about that.

    Villari-Cerio-Pesare-Gascon-Godin-{Kajuikenbo}

    OK, that's pretty much where all SKK comes from.
    Where did Kajukenbo come from
    -Chow / Mitose Kenpo
    -Danzan Ryu Jujutsu
    -Tang Soo Do
    -Boxing
    -Kodokan Judo
    -Sil Lum Kung Fu

    ah-ha! there's a Chinese connection - George Chune Yoke Chang had 4 yrs of training in Sil Lum in China from the ages of 12-16 (according to John Bishop's kajukenbo book) and then Wong Kok Fut in Hawaii for 6-8 more years before working with the otehr 4 founders of Kajukenbo.

    Plus whatever Chinesiness might have been contained in what Chow taught.

    But, you know what?

    The important thing is not - "can you trace this style's teachers back to some dude in China?"

    BUT

    "how much of the traditional chinese martial knowledge was transmitted from teacher to student over the years?"

    and that answer is, IMHO,

    not even a little.
    -David C
    http://www.kungfubooksonline.com

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    -Ed Parker Sr.

    "For many a 'system' is just a bunch of techniques. It should be much, much more than that..."
    - Doc Chapel

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  16. #72
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    Question Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    LOL!!!
    To each their own.

    ( Not off the subject, But i think Carradine was murdered.
    Read around about it.
    If it was a suicide, you don't need to go into a closet.
    wtf??? )











    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    I understand that in Japan, the word translated as "Kempo" implies that the style being described has Chinese origins. but I am not a Japanese speaker so I might be wrong about that.

    Villari-Cerio-Pesare-Gascon-Godin-{Kajuikenbo}

    OK, that's pretty much where all SKK comes from.
    Where did Kajukenbo come from
    -Chow / Mitose Kenpo
    -Danzan Ryu Jujutsu
    -Tang Soo Do
    -Boxing
    -Kodokan Judo
    -Sil Lum Kung Fu

    ah-ha! there's a Chinese connection - George Chune Yoke Chang had 4 yrs of training in Sil Lum in China from the ages of 12-16 (according to John Bishop's kajukenbo book) and then Wong Kok Fut in Hawaii for 6-8 more years before working with the otehr 4 founders of Kajukenbo.

    Plus whatever Chinesiness might have been contained in what Chow taught.

    But, you know what?

    The important thing is not - "can you trace this style's teachers back to some dude in China?"

    BUT

    "how much of the traditional chinese martial knowledge was transmitted from teacher to student over the years?"

    and that answer is, IMHO,

    not even a little.

  17. #73
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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    being in a hotel room maybe he had found out he had cancer or something terminal and painfull and he looked around the room found the only thing the string from the curtain and the pole in the closet was the only thing you knew could hold your weight because if he failed suicide he'd have a broken neck and cancer... i have no idea really it seems he had everything to live for but look at kurt cobain he had everything too and he was younger than i am now 26 i think he was so i guess when you hit that point you just cant take it any more and you feel its all you got.. sad really seemed like a genuinely good person from things i have read about him

  18. #74
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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by shaolinmonkmark View Post
    So, is it safe to say we all have kempo roots from china or not?
    LOL!
    i still believe in the lohan halls/108 dm's.
    That's for me.
    As for the rest hey, you have your art, so be it, but i believe we can agree to some extant (more than most to others)
    that at least part of kempo did come from china.
    agree or disagree?
    Did some part of Kempo come from China?

    Absolutely!

    Can the Chinese part of Kempo be traced back to the Shaolin Temples?

    Most likely!


    I'll give you those - with one key understanding. Keep in mind the geographical lineage (if we are talking geography with China) . . . moving back from now:

    East Coast - US
    West Coast - US
    Hawaii - US and before US Statehood
    Japan and Okinawa and Pacific Isles
    China

    The Chinese link is there in Hawaii, but it is more likely it actually sits in Okinawa. Having studied some of the traditional CMAs, no version of Kempo/Kenpo I've seen is truly a Chinese Martial Art. Inspired by? Derived from if you go back a few hundred years? Sure thing!

    To move it out of the martial art realm, I claim an Irish heritage. My grandmother was Irish and came over on "the boat" to Ellis Island. I can trace it back quite easily. I do not claim a Nordic, a Scottish, English, Anglo-Saxon, Gaul, or Jewish or Egyptian past, although if you go back far enough, chances are that's exactly where my ancestors came from. Why? Because I am far enough removed from "original civilization" that beyond the basic structure, I no longer share a common language, body type, belief system, skin tone, etc. as my potential other ancestors. To say that Kempo is based in Shaolin might be accurate, if you move far enough back. It is much easier to trace and claim what exists and is verifiable, and that is the development in Hawaii (and honestly, that's a little convoluted at times anyway).

    Oh, and I confirmed with GM Pesare that he taught and brought with him 21 combinations when he brought Kempo to the East Coast. To quote him "anything more would be redundant." I enjoy the extra Villari additions (and Cerio additions too!) but I would tend to agree that there is some definite redundancy in it. I also confirmed with a Cerio representative that the Combinations/DMs that were worked on by Cerio and Villari have long since been "retired" and are no longer part of the curriculum.

    I appreciate sharing information and what nuggets of historical information we find, especially some of us who weren't surrounded by the original founders. Sometimes though, belief gets in the way of historical accuracy, and to be honest, historical accuracy and lineage in martial arts is not always needed. (Please note, the following is not directed at anyone on the board, so don't take it this way):

    If I have to defend my art by saying it came from Senior Ultimate Grandmaster So and So, and he has links all the way back to this master, that one and the original Shaolin Temple God of Martial Art Warriors, then I am engaging in a hero-worship and probably not willing to let my art and my style stand on its own. If I am willing to say, here is my art, here is my rank, and here is where it came from, and if it is good, it will be honored and respected, then that's another thing. Villari, Cerio, Pesare, Gascon, Godin, Parker, Speakman, Chapel, and many others have their arts and they are (or were) in charge of it. You may question the legitimacy (this isn't what Chow taught, or isn't what Parker wanted, etc.), but here's the thing: They all stand on their own. If I walk in and say I teach the American Shaolin Universal Hawaiian Kempo Karate System, you may debate it's origins, but if I am effective in my art then there is a willingness to accept that it started with me perhaps. You can claim it's not "real Kenpo/Kempo" or that I violated what some previous master wanted, but if it's good, it will eventually be accepted into the fold in some manner. If it's not good, then I may have to go back and find some obscure link to defend it. (My ancestors actually came from Germany as well, when it was the Holy Roman Empire, my 15th great grandfather was a student of Marco Polo. When Polo went to China, he studied with the 12th Great Grandmaster of the Shaolin Temple in Fukien province and learned the 38 Deadly Palms of Shaolin which was then hidden in my mom's cabbage beef soup recipe until last year.)

    The true measure is in the ability. It's fun to learn the historical development, and I enjoy seeing how various combinations have evolved in different Shaolin Kempo organizations across the US. It challenges my mind to think of new things and see if this is the most effective way of doing things, or if it addresses new things that my older versions didn't. I love going back and looking to see what the original things were, to see what the root of all these equations are. I have no problem with something having been created 5, 10, or 50 years ago. if it works, I welcome it. If it doesn't work, I also welcome it (because I like to test myself in proving that it doesn't, and see if it can be fixed!). If you can teach me something from 500 years ago, I'd love to see that too, but I'm going to guess that really, what you are teaching me is something that has been changed so many times over the years by so many people, that the original and the modern are no longer linked. They are now linked more closely by the fact that a master 50 years ago studied Aikido as well, and changed this to more of a locking throw, and eliminated an "unnecessary strike" that was added 100 years ago by an Okinawan Karateka.

    I think most of Kempo/Kenpo stops in Hawaii with its recent lineage. What came before Mitose/Chow is tough to say and trace, and even things that got added after (the Kung Fu influence in Kajukenbo for example) was so heavily influenced by the Kenpo standards and Okinawan/Japanese approach, that it didn't maintain its traditional Chinese Martial Art identity. In Biology, they call these "bottleneck events" in evolution. In Physics, it is an "event singularity". Basically, it's a point at which all things come together to such a small spot, that what happened before it is irrelevant, because it all grew so strongly from a single point that the pre-existing information is all but lost.

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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaolindelt View Post
    I think most of Kempo/Kenpo stops in Hawaii with its recent lineage. What came before Mitose/Chow is tough to say and trace, and even things that got added after (the Kung Fu influence in Kajukenbo for example) was so heavily influenced by the Kenpo standards and Okinawan/Japanese approach, that it didn't maintain its traditional Chinese Martial Art identity. In Biology, they call these "bottleneck events" in evolution. In Physics, it is an "event singularity". Basically, it's a point at which all things come together to such a small spot, that what happened before it is irrelevant, because it all grew so strongly from a single point that the pre-existing information is all but lost.
    that's a great metaphor, love it.
    -David C
    http://www.kungfubooksonline.com

    "...while you guys are arguing, I'm on the grind."
    - an anonymous brick puncher

    "If you don't ask the right questions, I can't give you the answers, and if you don't know the right question to ask, you're not ready for the answers"
    -Ed Parker Sr.

    "For many a 'system' is just a bunch of techniques. It should be much, much more than that..."
    - Doc Chapel

  21. #76
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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Can i get a copy??? didn't know you were also into old school kung fu movies!
    Im a big Jet Li Fan, Jackie Chan fan.
    But, i really got into kempo after i saw "the perfect Weapon"
    I admit!
    LOL!!!

  22. #77
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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by shaolinmonkmark View Post
    Can i get a copy??? didn't know you were also into old school kung fu movies!
    Im a big Jet Li Fan, Jackie Chan fan.
    But, i really got into kempo after i saw "the perfect Weapon"
    I admit!
    LOL!!!
    36 Chambers of Shaolin aka Shaolin Master Killer
    -David C
    http://www.kungfubooksonline.com

    "...while you guys are arguing, I'm on the grind."
    - an anonymous brick puncher

    "If you don't ask the right questions, I can't give you the answers, and if you don't know the right question to ask, you're not ready for the answers"
    -Ed Parker Sr.

    "For many a 'system' is just a bunch of techniques. It should be much, much more than that..."
    - Doc Chapel

  23. #78
    shaolinmonkmark is offline
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    Thumbs up Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?





    it almost got a 5 star rating!!!
    ill try to get it this weekend!

  24. #79
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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    honestly if you've never seen this, you need to click over to Amazon and get the overnight shipping LOL heck I'm gonna watch it tonight just 'cause you brought it up
    -David C
    http://www.kungfubooksonline.com

    "...while you guys are arguing, I'm on the grind."
    - an anonymous brick puncher

    "If you don't ask the right questions, I can't give you the answers, and if you don't know the right question to ask, you're not ready for the answers"
    -Ed Parker Sr.

    "For many a 'system' is just a bunch of techniques. It should be much, much more than that..."
    - Doc Chapel

  25. #80
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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    honestly if you've never seen this, you need to click over to Amazon and get the overnight shipping LOL heck I'm gonna watch it tonight just 'cause you brought it up

    Also, if you are member of Netflix they have alot of the old kung fu movies (including this one).
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

  26. The Following User Says Thank You to punisher73 For This Useful Post:

    shaolinmonkmark (06-16-2009)

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