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Thread: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by shaolinmonkmark View Post
    My understanding was that Chow only taught DM's/Combination 1 thru 50.
    He mainly focused on principles, and different situations applying those principles.
    Professor Chow did not teach the DM's you are referring to. Are we back to square one on this thread?

    Professor Chow did have a system and it flourished in the 70's-80's with numbered techniques and sets. He realized the need to organize everything...The 12 linear techniques are unchanged from this time and of course many other techniques came from these.

    Many people form their opinions of Kara-Ho and Professor Chow based on what he was doing and teaching in the 1960's, when the bulk of his innovations came much later.

    Sad really- Go visit a Kara-Ho school and see the material, specifically the 6-10's THEN make your snap judgements on the system.

    James
    The above is just my opinion.

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    Smile Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    From my master, and his Professor's knowledge, he did, and he only taught 1 thru 48, a couple of students were taught to 50.
    Believe what you want, that is what i have found.

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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by shaolinmonkmark View Post
    from my master, and his professor's knowledge, he did, and he only taught 1 thru 48, a couple of students were taught to 50.
    Believe what you want, that is what i have found.
    rofl
    -David C
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    Smile Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    rofl






    i say, and im sure you can agree, "To each their own".
    LOL!!!!
    It's kempo, we all have differences, but when it is all said and done, it's kempo!
    LOL!!!
    Have fun!

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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by shaolinmonkmark View Post
    i say, and im sure you can agree, "To each their own".
    LOL!!!!
    It's kempo, we all have differences, but when it is all said and done, it's kempo!
    LOL!!!
    Have fun!
    Well, when you are talking aoubt doing kempo I agree
    but I thought we were talking about history, which is a discussion where some things are true and some are not, although determining which is which is sometimes impossible.

    what do you make of this thread?
    Prof.Chow's 12 original linear techniques
    -David C
    http://www.kungfubooksonline.com

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    "If you don't ask the right questions, I can't give you the answers, and if you don't know the right question to ask, you're not ready for the answers"
    -Ed Parker Sr.

    "For many a 'system' is just a bunch of techniques. It should be much, much more than that..."
    - Doc Chapel

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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    You know, I had an interesting Saturday this weekend. On the mat and at the dinner table with some guys from Chows lineage, different branches of the tree.

    With Mr. Parker, who learned what is almost always a function of when they studied under him. At different points in his timeline, he taught different stuff.

    The same seems to be true of Mr. Chows material. The Chow-Hoon lineage kenpo has some distinctly different approaches and flavors than the CHow-Kuoha lineage, than the Chow Chun lineage. I spent 14 years under a gentleman who was also a black under Mr. Chow, and his stuff is familiar in each of these other approaches, but also different, flavored by his own impressions.

    Sitting around yakking with some of the old Hawaiians and a couple of the remaining Chinese gentlemen from back in the day, apparantly many of Mr. Chows old black belts are still alive, well, teaching small groups in their homes or garages. And they each have their own take on what was taught, when, and what it looked like. Keawe, others, all still out there.

    Pick the brains of guys like Ming Lum and Al Novak, and you get an interesting view of history. Expand that to inheritors of different Chow lineages, and it gets more interesting still. To say that "This is what Ed Parker taught" would only be true for the time one was with him; it changed. Sounds to me like the same is true for Mr. Chows kenpo, sometimes heavily influenced by jujutsu, sometimes more by kung-fu, sometimes more by boxing, sometimes more internal and flowing, sometimes more external and bone-breaking. All still from da same guy.

    I been researching water purifiers. Whoevers is best seem to be determined by who is writing the review, and which brand they make. I suspect history in the martial arts is about the same. Until we get a reporter with no horse in the race...
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Thumbs up Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    You know, I had an interesting Saturday this weekend. On the mat and at the dinner table with some guys from Chows lineage, different branches of the tree.

    With Mr. Parker, who learned what is almost always a function of when they studied under him. At different points in his timeline, he taught different stuff.

    The same seems to be true of Mr. Chows material. The Chow-Hoon lineage kenpo has some distinctly different approaches and flavors than the CHow-Kuoha lineage, than the Chow Chun lineage. I spent 14 years under a gentleman who was also a black under Mr. Chow, and his stuff is familiar in each of these other approaches, but also different, flavored by his own impressions.

    Sitting around yakking with some of the old Hawaiians and a couple of the remaining Chinese gentlemen from back in the day, apparantly many of Mr. Chows old black belts are still alive, well, teaching small groups in their homes or garages. And they each have their own take on what was taught, when, and what it looked like. Keawe, others, all still out there.

    Pick the brains of guys like Ming Lum and Al Novak, and you get an interesting view of history. Expand that to inheritors of different Chow lineages, and it gets more interesting still. To say that "This is what Ed Parker taught" would only be true for the time one was with him; it changed. Sounds to me like the same is true for Mr. Chows kenpo, sometimes heavily influenced by jujutsu, sometimes more by kung-fu, sometimes more by boxing, sometimes more internal and flowing, sometimes more external and bone-breaking. All still from da same guy.

    I been researching water purifiers. Whoevers is best seem to be determined by who is writing the review, and which brand they make. I suspect history in the martial arts is about the same. Until we get a reporter with no horse in the race...

    i concur.
    I have been "Schooled" this info:
    At or around the time of parker training with Chow, chow had only taught up to around DM 1 thru 48.(our style has forms, and 108 DM's)
    That's it!
    Chow didn't want anyone to learn all 108, because he thought no one should surpass him.
    Now , the rest of them, and ed parker, went on to add/change their own.
    Cerio, along with others, searched and found "Other" martial arts masters, of shaolin heritage, to learn the rest of the 108.if you want, pm me for their names.
    Some masters of kempo, were only concerned with hand techniques, and added those into their style of kempo.

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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    pm sent
    -David C
    http://www.kungfubooksonline.com

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    -Ed Parker Sr.

    "For many a 'system' is just a bunch of techniques. It should be much, much more than that..."
    - Doc Chapel

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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    You know, I had an interesting Saturday this weekend. On the mat and at the dinner table with some guys from Chows lineage, different branches of the tree.

    With Mr. Parker, who learned what is almost always a function of when they studied under him. At different points in his timeline, he taught different stuff.

    The same seems to be true of Mr. Chows material. The Chow-Hoon lineage kenpo has some distinctly different approaches and flavors than the CHow-Kuoha lineage, than the Chow Chun lineage. I spent 14 years under a gentleman who was also a black under Mr. Chow, and his stuff is familiar in each of these other approaches, but also different, flavored by his own impressions.

    Sitting around yakking with some of the old Hawaiians and a couple of the remaining Chinese gentlemen from back in the day, apparantly many of Mr. Chows old black belts are still alive, well, teaching small groups in their homes or garages. And they each have their own take on what was taught, when, and what it looked like. Keawe, others, all still out there.

    Pick the brains of guys like Ming Lum and Al Novak, and you get an interesting view of history. Expand that to inheritors of different Chow lineages, and it gets more interesting still. To say that "This is what Ed Parker taught" would only be true for the time one was with him; it changed. Sounds to me like the same is true for Mr. Chows kenpo, sometimes heavily influenced by jujutsu, sometimes more by kung-fu, sometimes more by boxing, sometimes more internal and flowing, sometimes more external and bone-breaking. All still from da same guy.

    I been researching water purifiers. Whoevers is best seem to be determined by who is writing the review, and which brand they make. I suspect history in the martial arts is about the same. Until we get a reporter with no horse in the race...
    Sounds about right to me. According to my conversations with Mr. Parker Chow never wrote anything down, (for obvious reasons) and improvised all of the lessons according to what he wanted to work on at that day at the time. Some of his students however took notes, mostly on 3X5 cards like Mr. Parker shared with me, and these were really simple one liners for the actions. In fact the Parker pre Big Red and Big Red manuals were nothing but more fleshed out versions of those 3X5 cards, that said what, but never how. In short, they were as Mr. parker had always said, "just ideas." not a curriculum.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Thumbs up Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Cerio, and others of "Shaolin Kempo style", after chows death,
    learned what he could from chow's second in command.
    When they were taught all they could know, they tracked down, other shaolin kungfu masters who had the rest of the 108.
    I know you know who professor al cunningham is, try emailing him for the entire history, names, etc..
    as their were other masters from Hung Gar, Sil Lum, etc...
    Hope that helps.
    Mr. Gibson, that is what i found out.
    Im sure Kara Ho, is a different branch of kempo then the style of shaolin kempo i am taking.













    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Sounds about right to me. According to my conversations with Mr. Parker Chow never wrote anything down, (for obvious reasons) and improvised all of the lessons according to what he wanted to work on at that day at the time. Some of his students however took notes, mostly on 3X5 cards like Mr. Parker shared with me, and these were really simple one liners for the actions. In fact the Parker pre Big Red and Big Red manuals were nothing but more fleshed out versions of those 3X5 cards, that said what, but never how. In short, they were as Mr. parker had always said, "just ideas." not a curriculum.

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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Mark, bro, I'm going to try to kill this fantasy one more time.

    you wrote:
    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/for...p/t-72282.html

    read the whole entire post, and you will get the "Other" chinese master's names.
    Al Cunningham has a wealth of knowledge on the whole history, and yes, he was active around Parker,Villari, and Cerio's time.
    I read, researched, went "Away" from my art to find more info, then, asked my current master, is this all true?
    He said yes.
    We talked for over 3 hours on the subject.
    Chow only taught up to Dm 1 thru 48.
    (some say only 1 thru 26)
    the rest, everyone had to find By tracking down Shaolin Masters from hung gar,Sil Lum, etc.. for the rest.
    In Shaolin kemp today- we have slightly "Changed" some of these DM's for today's more realistic street self defense situations, and no, not just a step in right or left punch either, that is first taught so you can "Practice" and get down and "Understand" the principles of what each principle is.
    The kempo we have today, are from masters who changed/added/and help to inovate in their own ways their kempo, but we all came from Chow.
    funny! In that thread you link, I am in fact the user "KenpoDavid", and if you follow the links in that thread back to MartialTalk, you will see that the threads there also feature me, DavidCC, asking Mr. C. for this information.

    What you don't seem to get, though, is that I sat down with Sonny Gascon, who told us he made up the techniques when he split from the Kajukenbo organization! he made them up himself, taught them to George Pesare, who taught them to Nick Cerio, who taugh them to Fred Villari. Each man changing them to suit his own ideas.

    Did Villari learn some stuff from some CMA teachers? Sure! Has USSD done the same? yes. Did these Kungfu guys teach the SKK techs? NO.

    But this idea of Chow teaching what you know of as the Shaolin Kempo techniques 1-48, passed down from the Temple or something is really just a fantasy!

    At best Sonny Gascon drew upon his experience with Kajukenbo, but even those techs were created by the founders of Kaju in the 50s and did not come from W.K.S. Chow.

    Yes we all can trace our martial lineage back to WKS Chow but the tech that we do in SKK were developed in the 60s and changed drastically in the 80s.

    I have no financial interest in keeping you enthralled with the mysteries of Shaolin Kempo..........
    -David C
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    - Doc Chapel

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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post

    I have no financial interest in keeping you enthralled with the mysteries of Shaolin Kempo..........
    What? Are you saying that somebody is ...hey--wait a minute....
    "To be, rather than to seem"

    "Fix your rear foot ... What the hell is wrong with you?"

    "...I already watched the videos, and quite frankly, they're bullsh*t."

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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    this thread is great davidcc keeps trying to get this dude straight and he is still in fantasyland with this 108 dm's from the temple crap.... i got a great laugh from it...

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    Thumbs up Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    im not "Enthralled" or "mystified"
    as some say.
    just saying where these alleged "108" dm's came from.
    that's all.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gajewski View Post
    this thread is great davidcc keeps trying to get this dude straight and he is still in fantasyland with this 108 dm's from the temple crap.... i got a great laugh from it...

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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by shaolinmonkmark View Post
    im not "Enthralled" or "mystified"
    as some say.
    just saying where these alleged "108" dm's came from.
    that's all.
    But no reliable source from Shaolin Kempo can support that these were ancient Shaolin Temple techniques. Every person who had a hand in the development of SKK might pass things back a bit to their teacher, or might claim another teacher, but other than a reference in an old USSD manual, no one really believes that they go back to the Shaolin Temple. Also, if you truly look at the techniques, you can see their development. I don't have all 108, but I'm not far off. There is a definite change as you can see when Villari took over from Cerio, and even in the pre-Villari era. It exists in the Combinations (or Defense Manuevers) and in the forms, and in the blocking sets, etc. Villari definitely put his flair on it, and if he was influenced by Chinese Martial Arts, that's fine, it makes for some good marketing and good techniques (at times). But most of his advanced forms were never seen before 1980! (Not even descendants from . . . at least Statue of the Crane is clearly based on Rohai)

    In any case, I've had the chance to train in a few Kung Fu styles that would have come from the Shaolin Temples at some point . . . and while there is a common logic in some cases, the techniques that are DMs are clearly not within the same martial family.

    End of the story, the 108 Combinations are a tribute perhaps to the Shaolin Temple's traditions and the Hands of Lohan, etc., but Shaolin Kempo Karate is an American art. It is an art that shares a common lineage with other Kempo/Kenpo as developed in Hawaii, and the reliable history stops at WKS Chow. And nearly 100% of the post-Black Belt material in Shaolin Kempo Karate is completely the development of Fred Villari, with little to no link to Chinese Martial Arts. (Movements are much more Okinawan still!)

    Keep in mind, that I personally enjoy SKK, it, along with EPAK, is my primary style of training, and I've spent over 20 years training in it and teaching it. It's fun and it can be effective, but it's the construct of Fred Villari. And my overall opinion on GM Fred Villari:

    1) Effective fighter in his day and he had a lot of good ideas
    2) Great businessman and developed a truly commercial art that proliferated the east coast for years
    3) Any art that grows substantially can and will suffer a degradation of quality
    4) Fred Villari made some great stuff up from his understandings of martial theory
    5) Fred Villari made some absolute crap from his lack of understanding of martial theory
    6) Fred Villari chose to continue to pursue the business and commercial side of martial arts

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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaolindelt View Post
    But no reliable source from Shaolin Kempo can support that these were ancient Shaolin Temple techniques. Every person who had a hand in the development of SKK might pass things back a bit to their teacher, or might claim another teacher, but other than a reference in an old USSD manual, no one really believes that they go back to the Shaolin Temple. Also, if you truly look at the techniques, you can see their development. I don't have all 108, but I'm not far off. There is a definite change as you can see when Villari took over from Cerio, and even in the pre-Villari era. It exists in the Combinations (or Defense Manuevers) and in the forms, and in the blocking sets, etc. Villari definitely put his flair on it, and if he was influenced by Chinese Martial Arts, that's fine, it makes for some good marketing and good techniques (at times). But most of his advanced forms were never seen before 1980! (Not even descendants from . . . at least Statue of the Crane is clearly based on Rohai)

    In any case, I've had the chance to train in a few Kung Fu styles that would have come from the Shaolin Temples at some point . . . and while there is a common logic in some cases, the techniques that are DMs are clearly not within the same martial family.

    End of the story, the 108 Combinations are a tribute perhaps to the Shaolin Temple's traditions and the Hands of Lohan, etc., but Shaolin Kempo Karate is an American art. It is an art that shares a common lineage with other Kempo/Kenpo as developed in Hawaii, and the reliable history stops at WKS Chow. And nearly 100% of the post-Black Belt material in Shaolin Kempo Karate is completely the development of Fred Villari, with little to no link to Chinese Martial Arts. (Movements are much more Okinawan still!)

    Keep in mind, that I personally enjoy SKK, it, along with EPAK, is my primary style of training, and I've spent over 20 years training in it and teaching it. It's fun and it can be effective, but it's the construct of Fred Villari. And my overall opinion on GM Fred Villari:

    1) Effective fighter in his day and he had a lot of good ideas
    2) Great businessman and developed a truly commercial art that proliferated the east coast for years
    3) Any art that grows substantially can and will suffer a degradation of quality
    4) Fred Villari made some great stuff up from his understandings of martial theory
    5) Fred Villari made some absolute crap from his lack of understanding of martial theory
    6) Fred Villari chose to continue to pursue the business and commercial side of martial arts
    word.
    -David C
    http://www.kungfubooksonline.com

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    "If you don't ask the right questions, I can't give you the answers, and if you don't know the right question to ask, you're not ready for the answers"
    -Ed Parker Sr.

    "For many a 'system' is just a bunch of techniques. It should be much, much more than that..."
    - Doc Chapel

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    Thumbs up Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    What you forgot was Cerio WAS villari's teacher.
    Cerio was one of the men who went around trying to gather up what dm's he could, as well.
    All of them together pieced the 108.
    You are saying that "Wether or not the original 108 of the temple ever existed"

    From What I get out of shaolin kempo, and based out of what chow taught, i believe they do exist, now, as to what everyone has now, vs, what existed back in the days, i can only say the ones we have now, are the ones that have evolved/changed for today's self defense situations.











    Quote Originally Posted by Shaolindelt View Post
    But no reliable source from Shaolin Kempo can support that these were ancient Shaolin Temple techniques. Every person who had a hand in the development of SKK might pass things back a bit to their teacher, or might claim another teacher, but other than a reference in an old USSD manual, no one really believes that they go back to the Shaolin Temple. Also, if you truly look at the techniques, you can see their development. I don't have all 108, but I'm not far off. There is a definite change as you can see when Villari took over from Cerio, and even in the pre-Villari era. It exists in the Combinations (or Defense Manuevers) and in the forms, and in the blocking sets, etc. Villari definitely put his flair on it, and if he was influenced by Chinese Martial Arts, that's fine, it makes for some good marketing and good techniques (at times). But most of his advanced forms were never seen before 1980! (Not even descendants from . . . at least Statue of the Crane is clearly based on Rohai)

    In any case, I've had the chance to train in a few Kung Fu styles that would have come from the Shaolin Temples at some point . . . and while there is a common logic in some cases, the techniques that are DMs are clearly not within the same martial family.

    End of the story, the 108 Combinations are a tribute perhaps to the Shaolin Temple's traditions and the Hands of Lohan, etc., but Shaolin Kempo Karate is an American art. It is an art that shares a common lineage with other Kempo/Kenpo as developed in Hawaii, and the reliable history stops at WKS Chow. And nearly 100% of the post-Black Belt material in Shaolin Kempo Karate is completely the development of Fred Villari, with little to no link to Chinese Martial Arts. (Movements are much more Okinawan still!)

    Keep in mind, that I personally enjoy SKK, it, along with EPAK, is my primary style of training, and I've spent over 20 years training in it and teaching it. It's fun and it can be effective, but it's the construct of Fred Villari. And my overall opinion on GM Fred Villari:

    1) Effective fighter in his day and he had a lot of good ideas
    2) Great businessman and developed a truly commercial art that proliferated the east coast for years
    3) Any art that grows substantially can and will suffer a degradation of quality
    4) Fred Villari made some great stuff up from his understandings of martial theory
    5) Fred Villari made some absolute crap from his lack of understanding of martial theory
    6) Fred Villari chose to continue to pursue the business and commercial side of martial arts

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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by shaolinmonkmark View Post
    What you forgot was Cerio WAS villari's teacher.
    Cerio was one of the men who went around trying to gather up what dm's he could, as well.
    All of them together pieced the 108.

    Trust me, I didn't forget Cerio was Villari's teacher. What I was referring to was that the original Combinations/DMs were taken by Cerio and Villari, and they continued the development. Eventually, Villari took over creating the rest of the Combinations/DMs on his own after he split away from Nick Cerio. To my knowledge, Nick Cerio's Kenpo does not teach 108 Combinations, and had little to do with their development by Villari in SKK after 26. (I heard reports that Cerio had a hand in them up to 40, but that was it).

    Quote Originally Posted by shaolinmonkmark View Post
    You are saying that "Wether or not the original 108 of the temple ever existed"
    Not sure I ever said this. In any case though, I'll relent to popular culture on this one. I have heard completely mixed reviews on it ranging from never existing, 18, 108, to just a few guys in robes. In any case, the number is based on the 18 Hands of Lohan, reported to be the oldest formal system of Shaolin Kung-Fu, based on the Arhat set taught by Bodhidharma to the Shaolin monks. This was letter expanded (tripled) to a 54 movement set and then doubled to 108. The 108 set still exists today and while I have not personally gotten to train in or see it all, here's a link to the shorter 18:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9gNy...eature=related

    And I have to say, I could pick out individual elements that I could link to Combos 1-18 . . . but . . . they aren't derived from it in any manner that could be construed as producing what SKK has now.


    Quote Originally Posted by shaolinmonkmark View Post
    From What I get out of shaolin kempo, and based out of what chow taught, i believe they do exist, now, as to what everyone has now, vs, what existed back in the days, i can only say the ones we have now, are the ones that have evolved/changed for today's self defense situations.
    I'll give you they've been changed over time, and I'll even back off a little here. I never trained under Chow. I never trained directly under anyone who trained directly under Chow. However, in seeing the arts that have proliferated from Chow's line, I don't see any evidence that Chow taught these Combinations/DMs as a 108 secret set. From what it sounds like, Chow taught random stuff all the time. I'm sure you can find elements of Chow's teachings in Combination 30, but I'd be surprised if he could have explained it a few weeks after going over it. From what I've heard, Chow seemed to teach on a highly theoritical level, not in concrete, commercial techniques. For him to have had a system of 108 set techniques seems rather contrived. Mr. Gibson talks of GM Kuoha and I believe a 12 technique set. That seems more reasonable to keep track of and share, and I would even venture to argue that this might be in the later period of Chow's teachings (after the Cerio/Villari lineage had already moved away from WKS Chow).

    In any case, the statement

    Quote Originally Posted by shaolinmonkmark View Post
    i can only say the ones we have now, are the ones that have evolved/changed for today's self defense situations
    I can agree with. But more than 50% of these 108 are/were the creation of Fred Villari, and have little to nothing to do with 18 Hands of Lohan, of which the legendary Shaolin Temple Hall of Dummies, and the number 108, would have been based upon.

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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by shaolinmonkmark View Post
    What you forgot was Cerio WAS villari's teacher.
    Cerio was one of the men who went around trying to gather up what dm's he could, as well.
    All of them together pieced the 108.
    You are saying that "Wether or not the original 108 of the temple ever existed"

    From What I get out of shaolin kempo, and based out of what chow taught, i believe they do exist, now, as to what everyone has now, vs, what existed back in the days, i can only say the ones we have now, are the ones that have evolved/changed for today's self defense situations.
    Again, Chow's EARLY stuff (when Emperado and Parker trained there) was based mostly on ideas. You would come to class and work alot of techniques based on ideas. It was also very similiar to one step sparring as seen in many styles. Chow was very quick and powerful and usually ended his fights very quickly. Go to youtube and watch the interview with Sijo Emperado where he talks about the early days of Kajukenbo (SKK's true roots) when he showed it to Chow and Mitose they were impressed at the speed and multiple strikes because they didn't have those.

    Many people took ideas from Chow and then expanded on that with other training. If you look at some footage of Bill Chun Jr. performing some of Chow's techniques and then look at some Kajukenbo techniques you can see the Chow influence. If you look at the SKK form Hansuki (haven't seen Chun's version, but know it is different) and look at the concepts it teaches, you will see Chow's influence on the ideas even though Chow did NOT create that form (Cerio learned it from Chun, who created the form, and then altered it based on his study with Chow)

    Even when you look at Kara-Ho Kenpo from GM Kuoha he talks about adding things to the system with Chow's approval from Kuoha's previous training (high kicks etc). It was also organized and put more into a system for study as well.

    The point is, Chow had a progressive approach and system. He did NOT have 108 specific techniques handed down from the Shaolin Temple. The 108 DM's may have been influenced by people studying with Chow, but those were not created by him. Again, the earliest DM's were based on Kajukebo techniques, and then added on by each successive person.
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

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    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Did anybody notice the lack of synchronous coordination and cohesive alignment in the monk doing the Shih-pa Lohan Xu? Awful. Like he just finished learning it, and never practices. But the pretty colors and shaved head loan a piece of cultural cerdibility to an otherwise poor representation of a good exercise floor pattern.

    I wonder how much of this happens when we take otherwise marginal martial artists, and wrap them up in the trappings of funny colored belts, all tied up nice with a bow?

    Just 40 years ago, you didn't have to be good to be famous; you just had to be first, and have a good schtick. The field sure has changed.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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