Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 80

Thread: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    2,777
    Thanks
    1,624
    Thanked 3,128 Times in 1,479 Posts

    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    I have actually read that William Chow rarely taught the same thing twice, so ya better pay attention the first time.

    If this is true, it seems to indicate that what he taught were sort of "themes", rather than a rigidly codified system.
    Michael


    de gustibus non disputante est.
    Negative Douche Bag Number One

  2. #22
    shaolinmonkmark is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    63
    Thanks
    12
    Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts

    Thumbs up Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    no doubt about NCK training under pesare, and others.I wasn't questioning that at all.
    I am just curious about the 108 dm's.
    that's where basically , for myself at least, I am curious about.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    San Diego area
    Posts
    1,024
    Thanks
    876
    Thanked 501 Times in 283 Posts

    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Good stuff, I was gonna say "Pesare" but was beaten to the punch (reminds me of sparring) LOL

    I can only speak for Professor Chow's system as it evolved in the 70's-80's as far as techniques and forms/ weapons go. It seems he did a lot of "1 steps" and reaction style techniques throughout his entire career that one might never see again, Grandmaster Kuoha taught a few to us in a black-belt class about 10 years ago and I have not seen them since either!

    What many people do not realize is that Professor Chow was constantly innovating and created (with Grandmaster Kuoha) MANY sets of techniques, including "fighting 6-10 people or more". These remain intact and are taught in the advanced dan-levels in Kara-Ho Kempo today. Professor used to write the techniques and concepts on napkins over a Chinese food dinner with Grandmaster Kuoha. In some instances they even moved the furniture around a bit in there to review same, as Professor knew the restaurant owners so they could get away with that.

    Professor was definitely different between 1950 and 1987, it was all good but was always changing and evolving- too bad most of his students had gone there own way before the good stuff came around.

    Cheers-

    Addendum: I write this to the best of my knowledge as I consider myself a Kara-Ho Kempo historian (but I have sure been wrong before!) and it is worth mentioning that Grandmaster Kuoha is a forum member on here (Iceman) so if you have any further questions or need anything I can run it by him in person as well***
    The above is just my opinion.

  4. #24
    shaolinmonkmark is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    63
    Thanks
    12
    Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts

    Thumbs up Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    So then, NCK has pesare , Chow, EPAK, and Hung Gar master's Ping Woo, and Yon Lee, and villari's influence all in one.
    Ping Woo and Yon Lee were the ones who taught the shaolin DM's to Villari/Cerio.
    Thanks davidcc and dianshue, as well as Al Cunningham!

    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/for...90#post1305990

  5. #25
    Doc's Avatar
    Doc
    Doc is offline
    AKI Contributing Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    8,439
    Thanks
    4,269
    Thanked 14,934 Times in 5,591 Posts

    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    I have actually read that William Chow rarely taught the same thing twice, so ya better pay attention the first time.

    If this is true, it seems to indicate that what he taught were sort of "themes", rather than a rigidly codified system.
    Correctomundo!
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


    www.MSUACF.com

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Doc For This Useful Post:

    Matt Barnes (05-29-2009)

  7. #26
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Posts
    2,796
    Thanks
    578
    Thanked 1,842 Times in 1,069 Posts

    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by shaolinmonkmark View Post
    So then, NCK has pesare , Chow, EPAK, and Hung Gar master's Ping Woo, and Yon Lee, and villari's influence all in one.
    Ping Woo and Yon Lee were the ones who taught the shaolin DM's to Villari/Cerio.
    Thanks davidcc and dianshue, as well as Al Cunningham!

    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/for...90#post1305990

    I know you really want the techniques you are learning to be from Chinese Kung Fu... but I have more evidence to the contrary.

    A couple of days ago I received in the mail George Pesare's "Early Days of kempo" DVD. That DVD shows footage of George Pesare, Nick Cerio and others from the 1950s and 1960s doing combinations, many of which look very similar to the techniques in Shaolin Kempo today. This was long before Cerio trained Villari, and long before Cerio trained with Chow, or Villari met the Boston Chinese teachers.

    The source of the DMs in SKK is Gascon and Pesare - early take off on Kajukenbo - Hawaiian ghetto fighters techniques. For me the moves in this DVD are pretty conclusive, the DMs predate any exposure to the Chinese lessons that Villari had, and predate Cerio's lessons with Chow, Parker, Chun, etc...

    The style itself is based Sonny Gascon's re-formulation of Kajukenbo (after the Kajukenbo guys made him stop teaching their style). He taught Pesare the combinations and forms, and many of them remain recognizable to this day.

    For me, LOL, "the baddest mofos in the toughest ghetto in its day" is bad-a$$ enough. My desire to be associated with a martial legend is thereby satisfied, I don't need the Shaolin Temple to make me feel cool Joe Emperado could kick Bhodidharma's a$$ anyway.
    -David C
    http://www.kungfubooksonline.com

    "...while you guys are arguing, I'm on the grind."
    - an anonymous brick puncher

    "If you don't ask the right questions, I can't give you the answers, and if you don't know the right question to ask, you're not ready for the answers"
    -Ed Parker Sr.

    "For many a 'system' is just a bunch of techniques. It should be much, much more than that..."
    - Doc Chapel

  8. #27
    Doc's Avatar
    Doc
    Doc is offline
    AKI Contributing Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    8,439
    Thanks
    4,269
    Thanked 14,934 Times in 5,591 Posts

    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    For me, "the baddest mofos in the toughest ghetto in its day" is bad-a$$ enough. My desire to be associated with a martial legend is thereby satisfied, I don't need the Shaolin Temple to make me feel cool Joe Emperado could kick Bhodidharma's a$$ anyway.
    My money is on Emperado. Many also forget the influnece of the Emperado's on Ed Parker before and after he left the islands. Many of Parker's promotions came directly from Sijo Emperado, After he left Chow.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


    www.MSUACF.com

  9. #28
    shaolinmonkmark is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    63
    Thanks
    12
    Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts

    Thumbs up Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    wonder if they are still alive, ping woo, etc...

  10. #29
    Old Lion is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Blue Belt
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    West Coast
    Posts
    438
    Thanks
    261
    Thanked 320 Times in 183 Posts

    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    As explained to me EPAK, although done from a horse stance, was intended to learn point of origin blocking.
    "By perseverance, study, and eternal desire, any man can become great," Gen. George S. Patton Jr. Commanding Officer U.S. Third Army

  11. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Dana Point, CA
    Posts
    2,342
    Thanks
    2,295
    Thanked 4,372 Times in 1,426 Posts

    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by shaolinmonkmark View Post
    one thing i have heard was this:
    Chow only taught DM's 1 thru 64, he didn't want to promote any one higher or near his "grandmaster" status.
    So , when Cerio was with Chow, Allegedly, Chow only taught him those.
    True, NCK was with pesare and the rest , but ask yourself this," where did the other 44 come from then?"
    Some people say that Villari was NCK's greatest and most deadliest pupil, and NCK had all 108 from Chow, but never taught anyone the DM's past 60, except Villari,others claim that they "Both" created them, others go along with Villari saying he actually went to the shaolin temple, and was taught the rest by a Shaolin Grandmaster.
    And others claim he just simply "Made the rest up."
    So, that's all the info i have, i am not going to separate fact from fiction, but i will say that NCK was definently awesome when he was alive, and i love his art.
    Now, the info about Chow's father learning shaolin 5 animal style and being a senior shaolin monk yatti yatti, is still being debated right now, and conclusively, i am at 50/50, truthfully.
    Don't believe everything you're told. Much stuff is confabulated to sell memberships. The most important part is that you enjoy your activity within the system; not where it came from.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to Dr. Dave in da house For This Useful Post:

    Doc (09-30-2008)

  13. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Dana Point, CA
    Posts
    2,342
    Thanks
    2,295
    Thanked 4,372 Times in 1,426 Posts

    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Lion View Post
    As explained to me EPAK, although done from a horse stance, was intended to learn point of origin blocking.
    I'm guessing you meant to post this in the Blocking Set 1 discussion going on in Mr. Marshall's thread?
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

  14. #32
    Doc's Avatar
    Doc
    Doc is offline
    AKI Contributing Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    8,439
    Thanks
    4,269
    Thanked 14,934 Times in 5,591 Posts

    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    Don't believe everything you're told. Much stuff is confabulated to sell memberships. The most important part is that you enjoy your activity within the system; not where it came from.
    Keep in mind that Professor Chow had no written system, or real system at all. He taught ad lib, and what was left of that system when Mr. Parker left, was contained in a series of 3X5 card notations made by Ed Parker and probably others. Now much later, some came along and say they were taught "Chow's System," and it was "passed" to them. While that may be up for debate, the one thing that is clear during the Emperado, and later Parker tenure, was that Professor Chow had no real system.

    In my mind, the first hint of a system in the Chow Lineage came about through the efforts of Sijo Emperado and his colleagues Peter Choo, Frank Ordonez, Joe Holck, and Clarence Chang, in the creation of Kajukenbo, followed by Ed Parker's interpretation of Chow's Kenpo Karate on the mainland. These individuals utilized their collective experiences to create modern American Systems, ostensibly because nothing comprehensive existed at the time. Everyone else's claims come after the fact.

    History is more important to some than others who seek to give validity to what they do, through lineage ties and personal relationships. These things are important, but that should only be on a personal level. My relationship to Mr. Parker is important to me, but I have students who never met him. Their respect for Mr. Parker comes through me, and if I never mentioned his name, it doesn't and shouldn't affect their respect for me.

    I have a rich heritage in the Chinese Arts and under my mentor, but none of it should mean squat when it comes time to present myself. My knowledge, skill, and the ability to convey information has to stand on its own. My prominently displayed Ed Parker rank will not perform any tasks for me, nor is it supposed to. It is my job to live up to the diploma, not use it to validate me. My validation will come from those stand before me, friend or foe. Or to put it in Ed Parker's words, "Nobody ever asked to see Bruce Lee's diploma." Stand on your own two feet and make your teacher look good. Stop leaning on him for acceptance.

    If it's good, and you like it, and it works for you - who cares where it came from or what you call it? Homeboy on the street tain't gonna ask you about your rank or lineage before he tries to drop you.

    This is one of the great contradictions I see all the time in the martial arts. The culture clash between old world Chinese and Japanese Traditions of lineage, and "new world" emphasis on function. You might have a great lineage and have crap. You might have a lousy lineage but good stuff. Qut trying to have it both ways. If it happens, it happens.

    Once again in the words of Ed Parker. "Don't depend on me to make YOU look good, go out and make ME look good."
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


    www.MSUACF.com

  15. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Doc For This Useful Post:

    Dr. Dave in da house (09-30-2008),Mac (10-01-2008),MarkC (09-30-2008),Shaolindelt (10-01-2008)

  16. #33
    Shaolindelt is offline
    KenpoTalk
    3rd. Brown Belt
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Louisville, KY
    Posts
    728
    Thanks
    196
    Thanked 396 Times in 246 Posts

    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    My validation will come from those stand before me, friend or foe. Or to put it in Ed Parker's words, "Nobody ever asked to see Bruce Lee's diploma." Stand on your own two feet and make your teacher look good.
    I think a really important guy once said something along the lines of Time will either promote you or expose you.

    I think they might be on to something there . . .

  17. #34
    shaolinmonkmark is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    63
    Thanks
    12
    Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts

    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    As my master and i were talking, Yes, The shaolin Temple had the 108 DM's, but, they were made for "Back in the days" when someone atatcked you like old traditional fashion.
    As of today, many Masters have revised what dm's they could, for today's practical fighting purposes.
    BTW...
    I concur with you, either time will make, or break you as a martial artist.

  18. #35
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    West Michigan
    Posts
    1,926
    Thanks
    1,670
    Thanked 2,837 Times in 1,262 Posts

    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by shaolinmonkmark View Post
    .)
    As for the history of the 108 dms:
    http://www.chuanfamartialarts.com/id8.html
    such as white belt level dm#6:as oppopnent steps in with right punch to face , perform a right frontball kick to solar plexus, right leg returns, cross over left foot, step out with left foot, hands on guard.
    I'm not a kajukenbo blackbelt, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so I'll take a crack at this.

    DM#6 is a simplified version of kajukenbo punch counter #1. The only difference is in the original you do a left inward parry and right inward chop to the bicep to the punching arm as you do the kick. Some SKK schools still teach the inward left parry. The hand movements were taken out to make it easier for people to do and learn. Also, originally all of the DM's were NOT for a right step through punch attack. This was also changed to make it easier for people.

    Here is a link to a pretty thorough history of where the SKK DM's actually came from.
    http://www.umaassociation.com/history.html

    They are NOT based on anything from the Shaolin Temple. The number 108 might have been chosen to recognize the number 108 in some chinese martials arts, but the original combos are not chinese based.

    Each person added DM's after the "original 12". Cerio supposedly added and modified some after going to Hawaii to train with Prof. Chow. Villari added more after that when he split with Cerio. Each person continued to study with other people and styles and added based on those experiences. Both Villari and Cerio trained with some chinese sifus and styles and were influenced by that, but again this came much later and they were from different sources, none of which was the Shaolin Temple.

    Do some research among traditional CMA's, even those folks will tell you that most of what is seen in China today is based on the communist watering down of legit kung fu and modern wushu. Most of the legit instructors left the country when it happened. There is no actual record of what was taught in the Shaolin Temple (remember it was burned down by the gov't at one time and the records destroyed).
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

  19. #36
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Posts
    2,796
    Thanks
    578
    Thanked 1,842 Times in 1,069 Posts

    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    (remember it was burned down by the gov't at one time and the records destroyed).
    I agree with everything you wrote except this part.

    It was actually burned many times by a couple of different governments !
    -David C
    http://www.kungfubooksonline.com

    "...while you guys are arguing, I'm on the grind."
    - an anonymous brick puncher

    "If you don't ask the right questions, I can't give you the answers, and if you don't know the right question to ask, you're not ready for the answers"
    -Ed Parker Sr.

    "For many a 'system' is just a bunch of techniques. It should be much, much more than that..."
    - Doc Chapel

  20. #37
    Doc's Avatar
    Doc
    Doc is offline
    AKI Contributing Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    8,439
    Thanks
    4,269
    Thanked 14,934 Times in 5,591 Posts

    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by shaolinmonkmark View Post
    As my master and i were talking, Yes, The shaolin Temple had the 108 DM's, but, they were made for "Back in the days" when someone atatcked you like old traditional fashion.
    As of today, many Masters have revised what dm's they could, for today's practical fighting purposes.
    BTW...
    I concur with you, either time will make, or break you as a martial artist.
    Whoa, you have a master?
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


    www.MSUACF.com

  21. #38
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Bellevue, WA
    Posts
    4,823
    Thanks
    8,076
    Thanked 3,925 Times in 2,211 Posts

    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    So many possible comments, most of which would be misunderstood....
    "To be, rather than to seem"

    "Fix your rear foot ... What the hell is wrong with you?"

    "...I already watched the videos, and quite frankly, they're bullsh*t."

  22. #39
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    West Michigan
    Posts
    1,926
    Thanks
    1,670
    Thanked 2,837 Times in 1,262 Posts

    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    I agree with everything you wrote except this part.

    It was actually burned many times by a couple of different governments !
    True enough, I should have been more specific. I was only referencing that it was destroyed and the records lost.

    It was the communist gov't that rebuilt the temple most recently, AFTER having outlawed the practice of "feudal" kung fu (meaning the actual fighting version of it). They also put in place their own "abbott" that had nothing to do with his Buddhist convictions or seniority as a monk. Just pointing this out since the USSD claims that they were given the "secret books" by the Shaolin Temple (which you can buy for $199).
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

  23. #40
    shaolinmonkmark is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    63
    Thanks
    12
    Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts

    Default Re: does EPAK have defensive maneuvers?

    im not with USSD.
    We used to be back in 2000 we left!
    (You know why)
    FYI....
    My master trains in NCK kempo.
    We also incorporate Thai/MMA/Hagannah/Aikido in our art as well.
    My understanding was that Chow only taught DM's/Combination 1 thru 50.
    He mainly focused on principles, and different situations applying those principles.

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Remove Ads

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Windmill Guard: an equivielent in EPAK?
    By jjpregler in forum Tracy Kenpo - General
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 11-16-2007, 12:22 PM
  2. EPAKS Yellow Belt Manual - Complete
    By Bob Hubbard in forum Ed Parker Sr. Memories from Ed Parker Jr.
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-17-2007, 01:18 PM
  3. MT: Alternate Systems to EPAK
    By MT Post Bot in forum Kenpo From Other Boards
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12-30-2006, 08:16 PM
  4. EPAK: What arts influenced the development of EPAK?
    By Bob Hubbard in forum FAQ Development Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 12-10-2005, 07:11 PM
  5. EPAK: What are the organizations that promote EPAK?
    By Bob Hubbard in forum FAQ Development Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-10-2005, 03:59 PM

Search tags for this page (caching method: memcache)

defensive manuever 7 kempo

,

pesare combination 16 gascon original

Click on a term to search our site for related topics.