Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 40

Thread: Bookset Kata

  1. #1
    PorterKenpo is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    72
    Thanks
    37
    Thanked 31 Times in 21 Posts

    Default Bookset Kata

    Hey all,
    I was hoping that some of the older practitioners that were around at the time Bookset Kata was incorporated into the system from Jimmy Woo, can shed some light on its origin. Bookset was said to be a nickname of the form that Mr. Parker was going to include in "The Secrets of Chinese Karate." Its original name was said to be Panther Set, or Bun Gei in Chinese.

    This is where the confusion begins. Panther (or leopard) in Chinese is "boa", not Bun or Gei. Many Chinese systems have forms named Gei Bun (or Ji Ben) which means Basic Training. This certainly describes Bookset as it is a form composed of basics. However, I have not found the Gei or Bun switched in any other systems witch have Gei Bun forms (Gei Bun not Bun Gei). I also have not been able to find this form in any other Chinese system it is rumored to come from (including Leopard, Shaolin, Five Families, Five Ancestors, Five Animals, Choy Li Fut, or Hung Gar). Many Gei Bun forms are similar, but definitely different in content and arrangement. Would anyone out there happen to know the true origins of this form, and the actual kung fu system it was derived from?

    Thanks in advance,
    PorterKenpo
    Last edited by PorterKenpo; 10-02-2009 at 02:32 AM. Reason: spelling

  2. #2
    shaolinmonkmark is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    63
    Thanks
    12
    Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts

    Thumbs up Re: Bookset Kata

    on youtube, a gentleman from TRACO kempo has posted a "Panther" set on their.
    not sure if it is in the bookset or not.
    Hope it helps, friendo!
    (awesome forms and applications, and he is a spectacular martial artist!)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCGR8...09DE5DE7E4AD21


    cheers!

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to shaolinmonkmark For This Useful Post:

    PorterKenpo (10-02-2009)

  4. #3
    Jim Hanna is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Purple Belt
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    226
    Thanks
    11
    Thanked 179 Times in 95 Posts

    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    Quote Originally Posted by PorterKenpo View Post
    Hey all,
    I was hoping that some of the older practitioners that were around at the time Bookset Kata was incorporated into the system from Jimmy Woo, can shed some light on its origin. Bookset was said to be a nickname of the form that Mr. Parker was going to include in "The Secrets of Chinese Karate." Its original name was said to be Panther Set, or Bun Gei in Chinese.

    This is where the confusion begins. Panther (or leopard) in Chinese is "boa", not Bun or Gei. Many Chinese systems have forms named Gei Bun (or Ji Ben) which means Basic Training. This certainly describes Bookset as it is a form composed of basics. However, I have not found the Gei or Bun switched in any other systems witch have Gei Bun forms (Gei Bun not Bun Gei). I also have not been able to find this form in any other Chinese system it is rumored to come from (including Leopard, Shaolin, Five Families, Five Ancestors, Five Animals, Choy Li Fut, or Hung Gar). Many Gei Bun forms are similar, but definitely different in content and arrangement. Would anyone out there happen to know the true origins of this form, and the actual kung fu system it was derived from?

    Thanks in advance,
    PorterKenpo
    Here's my understanding of the form's history: Book Set was initially planned to be placed in Mr Parker's second book (Secrets of Chinese Karate); hence, the informal name "book set".

    The set was taught to the early kenpo guys by James Wing Woo and is a family set. I am guessing that it is based upon Shaolin, e.g. Hung Gar.

    Sifu Ibrao (who trained with Mr Parker and who still trains with Sifu Woo) calls the set "bun gi" and interprets that as "the basics set".

    The name "Panther Set" originated with Mr Tracy.

    It is a great form, imho, but there is really nothing esoteric-secretive about its origin. Sifu Ibrao explained it that way at the 1999 GOE.

    Jim

  5. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Jim Hanna For This Useful Post:

    Doc (10-02-2009),Kenpodave (01-16-2010),nelson (02-02-2011),PorterKenpo (10-02-2009)

  6. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Kennewick, WA
    Posts
    1,010
    Thanks
    143
    Thanked 711 Times in 384 Posts

    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    Quote Originally Posted by shaolinmonkmark View Post
    on youtube, a gentleman from TRACO kempo has posted a "Panther" set on their.
    not sure if it is in the bookset or not.
    Hope it helps, friendo!
    (awesome forms and applications, and he is a spectacular martial artist!)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCGR8...09DE5DE7E4AD21


    cheers!
    That isn't the Bookset/Panther taught in the Tracy lineages.
    Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Kenpo Karate
    www.blackbirdmartialarts.com

    “He, who will not reason, is a bigot; he, who cannot, is a fool; and he, who dares not, is a slave.”
    ~William Drummond

    "This person is as dangerous as an IED."

  7. #5
    ackks10 is offline
    KenpoTalk
    1st. Brown Belt
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Laurel springs New jersey
    Posts
    859
    Thanks
    119
    Thanked 165 Times in 134 Posts

    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    i brought this up a while ago,and i have papers from back then, and it was called "BOKSET" i was told that it was a misprint,but i have friends that have the same as i,oh well but the panther set was from Tracys.
    " Resolve to be tender with the young,compassionate with the aged,sympathetic with the striving,tolerant with the weak and wrong..... Because sometime in your life you will have been all of these"

  8. #6
    PorterKenpo is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    72
    Thanks
    37
    Thanked 31 Times in 21 Posts

    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    Quote Originally Posted by shaolinmonkmark View Post
    on youtube, a gentleman from TRACO kempo has posted a "Panther" set on their.
    not sure if it is in the bookset or not.
    Hope it helps, friendo!
    (awesome forms and applications, and he is a spectacular martial artist!)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCGR8...09DE5DE7E4AD21


    cheers!
    ---------------

    Thanks Shaolinmonkmark,

    No, that form is "Stalking Panther." Unfortunately, my mobile won't play the video. Luckily, Grandmaster McGhee is one of our grandmasters, and I get to see him move in real life. And yes, he is a spectacular martial artist! He was present for my promotion to 3rd Dan in TRACO Kenpo, and honored me by signing my certificate and afixing his seal to it.

    Are you by chance a TRACO practitioner?

    PorterKenpo

  9. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    West Michigan
    Posts
    1,926
    Thanks
    1,670
    Thanked 2,837 Times in 1,262 Posts

    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    I am not an oldtimer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...


    My understanding from reading what the old timers said is that Ed Parker worked and collaborated with Woo about the forms. The existing forms were modified by Parker to comply and fit in with the concepts of HIS art and not just putting in something from another source as filler.

    So even if it was a family set from Woo, it was altered and changed before being added by Parker. This is also why Tiger/Crane does not look like other sets of the same name, but does resemble it in many places.
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to punisher73 For This Useful Post:

    Doc (10-02-2009),PorterKenpo (10-02-2009)

  11. #8
    shaolinmonkmark is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    63
    Thanks
    12
    Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts

    Thumbs up Re: Bookset Kata

    Quote Originally Posted by PorterKenpo View Post
    ---------------

    Thanks Shaolinmonkmark,

    No, that form is "Stalking Panther." Unfortunately, my mobile won't play the video. Luckily, Grandmaster McGhee is one of our grandmasters, and I get to see him move in real life. And yes, he is a spectacular martial artist! He was present for my promotion to 3rd Dan in TRACO Kenpo, and honored me by signing my certificate and afixing his seal to it.

    Are you by chance a TRACO practitioner?

    PorterKenpo

    i work out with "Alot" of different kempoists!in sandiego, and north county.

  12. #9
    shaolinmonkmark is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    63
    Thanks
    12
    Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts

    Thumbs up Re: Bookset Kata


  13. #10
    shaolinmonkmark is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    63
    Thanks
    12
    Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts

    Thumbs up Re: Bookset Kata

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV1vtr4PwA8

    another one.
    When ya get a chance, youtube it "bookset"
    and see what pops up.
    Also, on youtube, pm eighteenelbows, he has alot of connections/knows alot of various kempo'ists!
    Great guy, awesome martial artist!

  14. #11
    PorterKenpo is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    72
    Thanks
    37
    Thanked 31 Times in 21 Posts

    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hanna View Post
    Here's my understanding of the form's history: Book Set was initially planned to be placed in Mr Parker's second book (Secrets of Chinese Karate); hence, the informal name "book set".

    The set was taught to the early kenpo guys by James Wing Woo and is a family set. I am guessing that it is based upon Shaolin, e.g. Hung Gar.

    Sifu Ibrao (who trained with Mr Parker and who still trains with Sifu Woo) calls the set "bun gi" and interprets that as "the basics set".

    The name "Panther Set" originated with Mr Tracy.

    It is a great form, imho, but there is really nothing esoteric-secretive about its origin. Sifu Ibrao explained it that way at the 1999 GOE.

    Jim
    ----------------
    Thanks Jim,
    Pretty much the same as I had heard it. Thanks for shedding some light on where the name "Panther Set" came from though.

    PorterKenpo

  15. #12
    PorterKenpo is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    72
    Thanks
    37
    Thanked 31 Times in 21 Posts

    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    I am not an oldtimer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...


    My understanding from reading what the old timers said is that Ed Parker worked and collaborated with Woo about the forms. The existing forms were modified by Parker to comply and fit in with the concepts of HIS art and not just putting in something from another source as filler.

    So even if it was a family set from Woo, it was altered and changed before being added by Parker. This is also why Tiger/Crane does not look like other sets of the same name, but does resemble it in many places.
    -------------------
    Thanks Punisher73,
    As Tiger and Crane came from Fu Hok, do you happen to know the "mother form" of Bookset(Bun Ji) or the style it came from. Or, as I suspect, did the form originate with Woo? I have seen many Ji Ben forms, but none that look like Bookset (though some share similarities...)

    PorterKenpo

  16. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    West Michigan
    Posts
    1,926
    Thanks
    1,670
    Thanked 2,837 Times in 1,262 Posts

    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    Doc can probably correct me if I am wrong. But, I believe that while Parker did work some with Woo. Ark Wong was his "main" chinese kung fu influence (and one of Wong's students through Mok Gar's interpretation of "splashing hands" "Tiny" Leifiti sp?).

    Wong's styles was Ng Ga Kuen. Five Family Fist. It was comprised of Choi, Li, Fut, Mok, and Hung (note these are NOT the same families of Choi Li Fat). There was a leopard (panther) form taught, but I have not seen it and do not know if this set was taken from Wong's teachings and called the "Book Set" or not.

    I do not know what style that Woo teaches or taught. It is listed as Tai Chi, and also as "Wu Shu Kung Fu". I know that he is very closed about non-students and what he tells outsiders. So again, I don't know if this was a variation on a set that Woo knew or not. In my research, I have never come across the EXACT style that the forms were modified from and placed in Kenpo.
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

  17. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to punisher73 For This Useful Post:

    Doc (10-02-2009),PorterKenpo (10-02-2009),scarey (10-02-2009)

  18. #14
    scarey's Avatar
    scarey is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Blue Belt
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    396
    Thanks
    117
    Thanked 284 Times in 158 Posts

    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    Doc can probably correct me if I am wrong. But, I believe that while Parker did work some with Woo. Ark Wong was his "main" chinese kung fu influence (and one of Wong's students through Mok Gar's interpretation of "splashing hands" "Tiny" Leifiti sp?).

    Wong's styles was Ng Ga Kuen. Five Family Fist. It was comprised of Choi, Li, Fut, Mok, and Hung (note these are NOT the same families of Choi Li Fat). There was a leopard (panther) form taught, but I have not seen it and do not know if this set was taken from Wong's teachings and called the "Book Set" or not.

    I do not know what style that Woo teaches or taught. It is listed as Tai Chi, and also as "Wu Shu Kung Fu". I know that he is very closed about non-students and what he tells outsiders. So again, I don't know if this was a variation on a set that Woo knew or not. In my research, I have never come across the EXACT style that the forms were modified from and placed in Kenpo.
    I too embarked on research (maybe about a year ago) to find what style of Kung Fu that Woo taught, simply for my own information. Wu Shu Kung Fu was the only reference that I could find as well. Sort of like saying "oh yeah, I do the Karate style of Karate" I'd like to hear any information from anyone who might know a bit more about Woo's style and influence. Information on Ark Wong wouldn't hurt either **cough**doc**cough**

    Sean

  19. #15
    WhiteCrane is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Posts
    95
    Thanks
    8
    Thanked 70 Times in 34 Posts

    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    I don't have any idea as to what specific system this form might have originated from. My experience with the Chinese arts only lasted a few years and the majority of the forms I learned were from either tiger, snake, or crane systems.

    I do wonder however why the panther form was chosen. Was Mr. Parker exposed to other animals styles and then gravitated toward the panther or leopard form over say crane or dragon, or was this simply the only Chinese form he learned before deciding to include it.

    The reason I ask is that the leopard or panther systems contain unique philosophies when compared to other animal systems. The tend to emphasize infighting and knuckle strikes for example and often deliver strikes on one leg much as northern fist styles do before crouching down for a follow up strike. Was this form included since these movements weren't found in the other Kenpo techniques he taught? Tiger claws, beaks, and open hand wing strikes seem to be present in the canon of techniques already included and the stereotypical EPK hand position (two fingers up, two down) is not unlike a dragon claw made in some dragon forms.

    If anyone has an answer to this I would love to know why the decision was made to go with a panther form. As it is now, I can only rationalize the decision based on what I've seen as an outsider to the art.

  20. #16
    shaolinmonkmark is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    63
    Thanks
    12
    Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts

  21. #17
    shaolinmonkmark is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    63
    Thanks
    12
    Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts

  22. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Kennewick, WA
    Posts
    1,010
    Thanks
    143
    Thanked 711 Times in 384 Posts

    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    Quote Originally Posted by shaolinmonkmark View Post
    Thats the one taught in the Tracy System, showing the characteristic extension and punch height that the Tracy's use throughout their forms.
    Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Kenpo Karate
    www.blackbirdmartialarts.com

    “He, who will not reason, is a bigot; he, who cannot, is a fool; and he, who dares not, is a slave.”
    ~William Drummond

    "This person is as dangerous as an IED."

  23. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    2,777
    Thanks
    1,624
    Thanked 3,128 Times in 1,479 Posts

    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    Mr. Woo still teaches in the LA area, tho he is pretty low-key and doesn't tend to share a whole lot with outsiders. My instructor has been in contact with him and did manage to discuss this form a bit. But getting clear answers from him is difficult. Anyway, you might be able to get in touch with him and ask some questions.

    It's my understanding that he studied a wide variety of Chinese martial arts when he was growing up. I don't think he's made is clear (to the kenpo folks at least) just where this form came from. Personally, I think it's possible that he created it himself. But that's just my own speculation.
    Michael


    de gustibus non disputante est.
    Negative Douche Bag Number One

  24. #20
    shaolinmonkmark is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    63
    Thanks
    12
    Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts

    Question Re: Bookset Kata

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindside View Post
    Thats the one taught in the Tracy System, showing the characteristic extension and punch height that the Tracy's use throughout their forms.





    but now, is it the panther form in the bookset then?

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Remove Ads

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. The Truth About Kata: Training Tool or Waste of Time
    By Blackcatbonz in forum Okinawan Kempo
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 03-02-2009, 08:37 PM
  2. Kata as Mental Exercise
    By MT Post Bot in forum KenpoTalk E-Zine Articles
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01-11-2008, 11:04 AM
  3. MT: The Importance Of Kata
    By MT Post Bot in forum Kenpo From Other Boards
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12-13-2007, 02:26 PM
  4. MT: Tailoring Epak Kata for Children?
    By MT Post Bot in forum Kenpo From Other Boards
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-31-2006, 08:55 AM
  5. Escaping Arts - Part 2: Inside Kata
    By Blackcatbonz in forum Japanese Kempo
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 03-21-2006, 04:34 PM

Search tags for this page (caching method: table, memcache)

book set kata
,

book set kenpo

,
bookset lavallees
,

chinese kempo bookset kata

,
history of book set kenpo kata
,
kenpo book set
,

kenpo bookset kata

,
kenpo karate bookset kata
,
kenpo leopard form
,
kenpo leopard kata
,

panther ark wong kung fu

Click on a term to search our site for related topics.