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Thread: Bookset Kata

  1. #21
    Ray
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    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    Hmm, didn't expect to find this...the beginning is reminscent of kenpo's bookset, but so very linear.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqCGVtxOdgw

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    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    Appears to be a modification. The beginning is similar to what I learned.

    Here's mine:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rr1wWGILLg
    Dave

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    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    Hmm, didn't expect to find this...the beginning is reminscent of kenpo's bookset, but so very linear.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqCGVtxOdgw
    wow, I would say that is only barely vaguely reminiscent of the bookset/panther set that we do in Tracys. It really looks more like a Japanese set with a few adaptations added in from Bookset, or a Fu Hok variant.

    That is so different from the panther set that I would say it is not the same thing. If I had seen that and nobody had called it Book Set, I would never have connected the two.
    Michael


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    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    Interesting.

    I never learned book set, so I have a question.

    What is the bunkai (for lack of a better word) for keeping the feet so together and still in the beginning? Not asking this to be flippant, I'm just not used to seeing forms with the lower body in that position

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    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    Quote Originally Posted by Carol View Post
    Interesting.

    I never learned book set, so I have a question.

    What is the bunkai (for lack of a better word) for keeping the feet so together and still in the beginning? Not asking this to be flippant, I'm just not used to seeing forms with the lower body in that position
    In the original Hung Gar version the hand movements are done with dynamic tension and are for training purposes not really for application as such.
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

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    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    Quote Originally Posted by Carol View Post
    Interesting.

    I never learned book set, so I have a question.

    What is the bunkai (for lack of a better word) for keeping the feet so together and still in the beginning? Not asking this to be flippant, I'm just not used to seeing forms with the lower body in that position
    The opening sections, done with feet together in a standing position, are not self defense predicated. They are taught dynamically (with tension in the arms and the knees slightly bent), but in Bun Gi, the legs are straight and the arm movements softer in order to enhance the health (think chi flow and working the lymphatic system).

    Bun Gi and Book Set are the same form but with different execution of the moves mandated by philosophy.

    Jim

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    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hanna View Post
    The opening sections, done with feet together in a standing position, are not self defense predicated. They are taught dynamically (with tension in the arms and the knees slightly bent), but in Bun Gi, the legs are straight and the arm movements softer in order to enhance the health (think chi flow and working the lymphatic system).

    Bun Gi and Book Set are the same form but with different execution of the moves mandated by philosophy.

    Jim
    This is how I understand it, as far as how we do it in Tracys.

    I do not know, however, if a Hung Gar person would agree with this. Maybe he would, maybe he would not. While I am not convinced that Panther/Book Set comes from Hung Gar, the opening has some strong similarities to Hung Gar's Tiger and Crane form. They may see it in a different way, but the idea that we are using the big movements with dynamic tension to stimulate the lymphatic system does make sense.

    Ted Sumner feels that this particular form has (if I remember correctly how he characterized it) three major components: self-defense applications, health benefits, and stamina. The SD part is obvious, there is application possibilities to the movements. The Stamina part comes from the form being fairly lengthy and physically demanding. The Health aspect comes from what was discussed above. Ted feels that Chinese forms often contain these distinct portions, and they are therefor very complete as a sequence of skill and knowledge and training.

    In my own experience with the Chinese arts I have not always seen this born out. In my White Crane forms, every movement has a combative application. I've not seen anything described as purely for health, devoid of application. And while even the health movements can have combative applications, I've never had anyone characterize a movement in my White Crane as "for health". That being said, my WC training group feels very strongly that we are largely practicing for our long term health.
    Michael


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    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    This is how I understand it, as far as how we do it in Tracys.

    I do not know, however, if a Hung Gar person would agree with this. Maybe he would, maybe he would not. While I am not convinced that Panther/Book Set comes from Hung Gar, the opening has some strong similarities to Hung Gar's Tiger and Crane form. They may see it in a different way, but the idea that we are using the big movements with dynamic tension to stimulate the lymphatic system does make sense.

    Ted Sumner feels that this particular form has (if I remember correctly how he characterized it) three major components: self-defense applications, health benefits, and stamina. The SD part is obvious, there is application possibilities to the movements. The Stamina part comes from the form being fairly lengthy and physically demanding. The Health aspect comes from what was discussed above. Ted feels that Chinese forms often contain these distinct portions, and they are therefor very complete as a sequence of skill and knowledge and training.

    In my own experience with the Chinese arts I have not always seen this born out. In my White Crane forms, every movement has a combative application. I've not seen anything described as purely for health, devoid of application. And while even the health movements can have combative applications, I've never had anyone characterize a movement in my White Crane as "for health". That being said, my WC training group feels very strongly that we are largely practicing for our long term health.
    Out of curiosity, I know some branches of White Crane have their own version of chi gung, does Tibetan White Crane as well? Might be the difference if they have a seperate form of health training.

    In the case of tiger/crane etc. The moves done for "health" also would have a combat application, much like the hand movements in WC. The movements would be kind of like kenpo sets. They index the movements you can use for combat, but they themselves are not set up in a combat sequence.
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

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    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    Out of curiosity, I know some branches of White Crane have their own version of chi gung, does Tibetan White Crane as well? Might be the difference if they have a seperate form of health training.
    yes, we have a set called Cotton Needle, which is very similar to taiji. It is the qi-gong set for internal development, tho the movements also have fighting applications as does taiji. I haven't learned this, but I've seen it numerous times.

    I don't know if we have other qi-gong exercises separate from Cotton Needle. If so, I haven't learned them, nor seen them.

    In the case of tiger/crane etc. The moves done for "health" also would have a combat application, much like the hand movements in WC. The movements would be kind of like kenpo sets. They index the movements you can use for combat, but they themselves are not set up in a combat sequence.
    yup.
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    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    I'm not sure a "movement for health purposes" is the correct way to think about it.

    if you are moving with good alignment and structure, internal and external, this is most efficient for martial applicaitons and also improves your health over time. It's not like "wave your arm like this to make your liver healthier" or something ?? Practicing movements that are out of alignment or that cause poor posture internal or external will over time deteriorate your body (re: TKD hip replacement; re: Goju Ryu hemorrhoids)
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    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    I'm not sure a "movement for health purposes" is the correct way to think about it.

    if you are moving with good alignment and structure, internal and external, this is most efficient for martial applicaitons and also improves your health over time. It's not like "wave your arm like this to make your liver healthier" or something ?? Practicing movements that are out of alignment or that cause poor posture internal or external will over time deteriorate your body (re: TKD hip replacement; re: Goju Ryu hemorrhoids)
    The opening movements can specifically stimulate the lymph system for draining gunk from your body. The lymph system does not have an active pump to move the gunk along. Rather, body movement itself, the use of the muscles, acts to pump it along. These movements with dynamic tension can be particularly effective in doing this.
    Michael


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    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    Interesting input! I have seen my instructor do tension forms in the past, but I am not at a level where I have learned one myself. That makes a lot more sense to me now.

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    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    I'm not sure a "movement for health purposes" is the correct way to think about it.

    if you are moving with good alignment and structure, internal and external, this is most efficient for martial applicaitons and also improves your health over time. It's not like "wave your arm like this to make your liver healthier" or something ?? Practicing movements that are out of alignment or that cause poor posture internal or external will over time deteriorate your body (re: TKD hip replacement; re: Goju Ryu hemorrhoids)
    Thanks David. my monitor is now covered in Diet Coke thanks to you.
    My old Kempo school taught a couple of forms that used dynamic tension (Seiunchin and Sanchin), I must have been doing them correctly, 'cause I never developed any 'rrhoids.
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    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    Out of curiosity, I know some branches of White Crane have their own version of chi gung, does Tibetan White Crane as well? Might be the difference if they have a seperate form of health training.

    In the case of tiger/crane etc. The moves done for "health" also would have a combat application, much like the hand movements in WC. The movements would be kind of like kenpo sets. They index the movements you can use for combat, but they themselves are not set up in a combat sequence.

    Good point about the chi gung exercises. If you pause and hold some of the movements in the opening sections of Bun Gi, you will be in a recognizable chi gung stance. Even the two punches, done in a natural standing position, can be practiced as chi gung exercises and not as punches (according to chi gung books).

    Jim

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    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    This is how I understand it, as far as how we do it in Tracys.

    I do not know, however, if a Hung Gar person would agree with this. Maybe he would, maybe he would not. While I am not convinced that Panther/Book Set comes from Hung Gar, the opening has some strong similarities to Hung Gar's Tiger and Crane form. They may see it in a different way, but the idea that we are using the big movements with dynamic tension to stimulate the lymphatic system does make sense.

    Ted Sumner feels that this particular form has (if I remember correctly how he characterized it) three major components: self-defense applications, health benefits, and stamina. The SD part is obvious, there is application possibilities to the movements. The Stamina part comes from the form being fairly lengthy and physically demanding. The Health aspect comes from what was discussed above. Ted feels that Chinese forms often contain these distinct portions, and they are therefor very complete as a sequence of skill and knowledge and training.

    In my own experience with the Chinese arts I have not always seen this born out. In my White Crane forms, every movement has a combative application. I've not seen anything described as purely for health, devoid of application. And while even the health movements can have combative applications, I've never had anyone characterize a movement in my White Crane as "for health". That being said, my WC training group feels very strongly that we are largely practicing for our long term health.
    Michael, is it your understanding that these 3 components (SD, stamina, and health) are to be found in separate parts of the form, or that the form integrates them into each movement? I have always operated more from the latter theory.
    Dave

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    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    The opening movements can specifically stimulate the lymph system for draining gunk from your body. The lymph system does not have an active pump to move the gunk along. Rather, body movement itself, the use of the muscles, acts to pump it along. These movements with dynamic tension can be particularly effective in doing this.
    The opening movements can also be interpreted in a way that makes them applicable to self defense. Ray Arquila once pointed out to me that the opening move in the set is Striking Fang B.
    Dave

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    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hanna View Post
    Good point about the chi gung exercises. If you pause and hold some of the movements in the opening sections of Bun Gi, you will be in a recognizable chi gung stance. Even the two punches, done in a natural standing position, can be practiced as chi gung exercises and not as punches (according to chi gung books).

    Jim
    True. Many of the "8 Pieces of Brocade" are similar to movements found in the Book Set.
    Dave

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    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave View Post
    True. Many of the "8 Pieces of Brocade" are similar to movements found in the Book Set.
    That is what came to mind when Mr. Hanna mentioned throwing the punches from a natural stance. I have not practiced 8 Pieces of Brocade, but have seen it performed and described and that was the one part that stuck out to me. Throwing the punches and picturing the hand was "hollow" like you were holding an egg, and not tight as if throwing a punch.
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    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave View Post
    Michael, is it your understanding that these 3 components (SD, stamina, and health) are to be found in separate parts of the form, or that the form integrates them into each movement? I have always operated more from the latter theory.
    I believe it is heavily integrated, but many people do not realize the specific health benefits that are going on, and those particular reasons for the movements. But yes, the same movement done correctly can have specific health benefits, and also combative applications.
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    Default Re: Bookset Kata

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    wow, I would say that is only barely vaguely reminiscent of the bookset/panther set that we do in Tracys. It really looks more like a Japanese set with a few adaptations added in from Bookset, or a Fu Hok variant.

    That is so different from the panther set that I would say it is not the same thing. If I had seen that and nobody had called it Book Set, I would never have connected the two.
    I actually had a strong suspicion about where that kata was from even before I clicked the link. It's from Steve LaVallee's USA Black Belt Champions, which has schools in New York (mostly around Syracuse) and Florida. My family and I trained there for about six months. As some of you may have seen, I'm trying to understand the origins of the Kenpo I'm learning in part because of the sorts of change you see in that video. Most of the kata look passingly similar to more traditional Parker/Tracy kata by the same names, but they've changed a LOT over the years and I'm not sure why. Likewise, a lot of the different forms common to Tracy Kenpo have either been removed or have possibly morphed into something else with different names.

    In fairness, LaVallee's has not branded their school as teaching Kenpo in many years - they're officially an MMA (or "blended martial arts" is one of the terms I heard used) school now.

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