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Thread: a question about styles

  1. #21
    SifuDangeRuss is offline
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    Default Re: a question about styles

    Any style or branch, is only as good as the individual teaching it. Nick Cerio was a very skilled and charismatic individual. We've...errrrr....borrowed a handful of techniques and concepts from him. It is possible that this particular instructor might not be his best desciple.

    Likewise there are some really unqualified folk out there attempting to teach the EPAK method (or probably any other brand you care to list for that matter).

    The point is, that the absolute BEST system simply doesn't exist. (outside of my school anyway..lol)

    You've attended both schools, so are probably more qualified than many of us to judge the teachers and schools. Watch the students. Do the students seem to get the lessons being taught? Do they appear to be proficient? The best school for you, will be the one that you believe in, whether it be the Parker or the Cerio class. The school/system you believe in, will mean that you work harder, study more and practice with more enthusiasm and diligence. This is what will make you a better martial artist. I'm glad your friend believes his school is the best. For him it might be. For you? Maybe. Maybe not. If you have the opportunity to speak with senior students of both schools, listen to what they have to say and if they truly seem to get whatever it is that's being taught. Try to compare more than one student, with comparable amounts of training time and make your own decision based on this criterea.

    The best school, will always be the one in which you can commit yourself to and will train the hardest. Bottemline? Do what makes you happy. A great teacher in an inferior style is invariably better than a poor teacher in a superior style.

    Good luck

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    Default Re: a question about styles

    Quote Originally Posted by SifuDangeRuss View Post
    A great teacher in an inferior style is invariably better than a poor teacher in a superior style.

    And a great teacher in a great style with a bad attitude is no good either.
    Michael


    de gustibus non disputante est.
    Negative Douche Bag Number One

  4. #23
    Kane508 is offline
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    Default Re: a question about styles

    Quote Originally Posted by KempoShaun View Post
    P.S. about Villari's stuff being bad... No, the system is sound, when taught by a competent instructor. Most people, while they may bad mouth Villari and the system, are actually more disappointed at the business practices of the man/organization. The instructor clubs, masters programs, atp programs, get your black belt in 10 months stuff (which is prevalent in almost all arts now, not just Shaolin Kempo) etc... have fueled this by filling school with not-so-comptent instructors (not all of them!), who in turn make what is actually a great system, look bad or seem bad, by not truly having had the time to train and understand the system as well as they should have. Peace!
    Hi, my first time posting. I'd like to share some of my knowledge on this matter.
    I originally started in a Kenpo school headed by Bill Brogna up in Massachusetts. Later the when the instructor sold the school to Chad Perry, he received his teaching certification from Nick Cerio. Fifteen years later, I joined a kenpo school under Prof. Bryant and Prof Nohelty Masters Self Defense System which received belt ranks from Nick Cerio when he was still alive. The school and master was originally under the Villari system. From my impression that I get from my master, it seems like Villari sold out the system by making online training videos, online belt ranks, etc. I've seen some of Villari's videos and they are impressive. Overkill, but impressive. I believe most people that are disappointed with the Villari system is the business practice.

    As for Nick Cerio, he originally received his black belt from Pasare I believe and he trained under Ed Parker who then recommended him to Prof. Chow. At that same time, Villari was also training with Chow. So one can't really say Parker was better than Cerio since they both had the same Master instructor just at different times. The both taught and trained martials for about the same amount of time. Parker studied during the 50's and passed away in 89 and Cerio studied in the 60's and passed away in 98. Any school downgrading another school wouldn't make me want to join theirs. If you want to check the credibility of your instructor or school and any others, ask about the lineage.

    Personally I think both systems are great. I talk to EP kenpo students all the time. Some differences are:
    In EP system there is a given name for every technique and strike.
    In NC system it's just front to knuckle or hopping stool kick.

    In EP system there are short and long forms.
    In NC system there are pinans and katas mostly from shotokan or japanese forms. The forms are expected to be different since it's been said that Chow never taught any forms.

    If you know EP kenpo and I've said something incorrect, please correct me.

  5. #24
    justthetruth is offline
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    Default Re: a question about styles

    Quote Originally Posted by J-squared View Post
    Welcome to KenpoTalk. Interesting first post. "Talk with their instructor and get his/her permission" to do what? I don't get it. "True Dojo?" - I don't get the point with that either. Also, I missed the actual trash talking. Perhaps I'm late to the party and missed something??
    A dojo (道場, dōjō?) is a Japanese term which literally means "place of the Way". Initially, Dojo were adjunct to temples. The term can refer to a formal training place for any of the Japanese do arts but typically it is considered the formal gathering place for students of a martial arts style to conduct training, examinations and other related encounters.
    The concept of a dojo as a martial arts training place is a Western concept; in Japan, any physical training facility, including professional wrestling schools may be called dojos as well depending on the context.



    Thought this may help you...

  6. #25
    ackks10 is offline
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    Default Re: a question about styles

    1st let me say that i knew prof,Nick Cerio since the 70's and he was a great man!!!! and you have had a lot of people telling you things on here that (to me) make alot of sense ,i do want to say one thing about the person who was bad mouthing the school that you go to, there is a Chinese saying

    "if you talk to an idiot, you become an idiot" (please not saying that you are)
    but anyone who has crap to say about another school, is (to me) an idiot
    and needs one of his senses,replaced with the "sense of understanding"
    please have fun and learn all you can.
    " Resolve to be tender with the young,compassionate with the aged,sympathetic with the striving,tolerant with the weak and wrong..... Because sometime in your life you will have been all of these"

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    Default Re: a question about styles

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane508 View Post
    As for Nick Cerio, he originally received his black belt from Pasare I believe and he trained under Ed Parker who then recommended him to Prof. Chow. At that same time, Villari was also training with Chow. So one can't really say Parker was better than Cerio since they both had the same Master instructor just at different times. The both taught and trained martials for about the same amount of time. Parker studied during the 50's and passed away in 89 and Cerio studied in the 60's and passed away in 98.
    well, the devil is in the details. Cerio did do some trainig with Ed Parker but not much, really. A few hours over a handful of visits maybe? Cerio's bio online says they had lots of discussions but does not describe a lot of training.

    Parker did pass Cerio on to Chow. But look at the timing of that. By then What was Parker's relationship with Prof. Chow? Ed Parker's kenpo by this time had been re-worked at least twice since he left Chow and the incluences of Chow were in the past. So why did he introduce Cerio to Chow? IMHO because what Cerio was already doing was closer to what Chow taught than what Parker was doing at the time. Parker's kenpo had evolved and Cerio was not on the same page.

    Villari studtying with Chow... I've looked into that before and I don't think there is much there. I was told by an old-timer up there in New England

    Cerio used to go visit Chow two weeks at a time between, 1967 and 1971... Fred was with Nick until 1971. Fred, after leaving Nick did go visit Chow, I have no idea how he set it up but he was there. How long, how much study if any, was it just a visit to meet him, don't know. I do know he had an authentic autographed picture of Chow that he brought back with him. I have an exact copy of the original from Fred hanging in my school. We would line up back in those early years when I started kempo and bow to the flag, bow to Master Villari (his picture) and bow to 'The Professor', Master Villari's instructor. Never no mention of Nick. Then one day we come in, the Chow picture was taken down and that was it. Later I was told Chow found out about the pictures in the Villari schools (someone must have dropped a dime on him) and how ... Villari was being linked to Chow as his instructor.
    So, Cerio did spend a few weeks with Chow, and Villari even less. Ed Parker trained with him for a few years as a regular, local student. So I have to strongly disagree with your statement "they both had the same Master instructor just at different times".

    I'm not trying to run down Cerio, the head of my system got his first shodan from Cerio, and I am not a Parker system student. I just don't think Cerio can be placed on the same level as Ed Parker. Just get an tapes of Cerio teaching and Parker teaching and watch them back to back.
    -David C
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  9. #27
    ackks10 is offline
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    Default Re: a question about styles

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    well, the devil is in the details. Cerio did do some trainig with Ed Parker but not much, really. A few hours over a handful of visits maybe? Cerio's bio online says they had lots of discussions but does not describe a lot of training.

    Parker did pass Cerio on to Chow. But look at the timing of that. By then What was Parker's relationship with Prof. Chow? Ed Parker's kenpo by this time had been re-worked at least twice since he left Chow and the incluences of Chow were in the past. So why did he introduce Cerio to Chow? IMHO because what Cerio was already doing was closer to what Chow taught than what Parker was doing at the time. Parker's kenpo had evolved and Cerio was not on the same page.

    Villari studtying with Chow... I've looked into that before and I don't think there is much there. I was told by an old-timer up there in New England



    So, Cerio did spend a few weeks with Chow, and Villari even less. Ed Parker trained with him for a few years as a regular, local student. So I have to strongly disagree with your statement "they both had the same Master instructor just at different times".

    I'm not trying to run down Cerio, the head of my system got his first shodan from Cerio, and I am not a Parker system student. I just don't think Cerio can be placed on the same level as Ed Parker. Just get an tapes of Cerio teaching and Parker teaching and watch them back to back.


    you know i'm going make alot of people mad right now , but who cares they were both great men , and i knew both of them, look why don't people leave the dead alone ?? everyone knows who Mr Parker was (i hope) and people knew who Mr Creio was, Mr Parker did go though alot of changes, but thats what he did, now as for mr cerio, he did what he did (not the same as Parkers) but so what, (see cerios kenpo hands) ,and one last thing , ( i could be wrong) but i do think that Mr cerio got his 8th from Mr parker.
    " Resolve to be tender with the young,compassionate with the aged,sympathetic with the striving,tolerant with the weak and wrong..... Because sometime in your life you will have been all of these"

  10. #28
    Kane508 is offline
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    Default Re: a question about styles

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post

    Parker did pass Cerio on to Chow. But look at the timing of that. By then What was Parker's relationship with Prof. Chow? Ed Parker's kenpo by this time had been re-worked at least twice since he left Chow and the incluences of Chow were in the past. So why did he introduce Cerio to Chow? IMHO because what Cerio was already doing was closer to what Chow taught than what Parker was doing at the time. Parker's kenpo had evolved and Cerio was not on the same page.

    Villari studtying with Chow... I've looked into that before and I don't think there is much there. I was told by an old-timer up there in New England



    So, Cerio did spend a few weeks with Chow, and Villari even less. Ed Parker trained with him for a few years as a regular, local student. So I have to strongly disagree with your statement "they both had the same Master instructor just at different times".

    I'm not trying to run down Cerio, the head of my system got his first shodan from Cerio, and I am not a Parker system student. I just don't think Cerio can be placed on the same level as Ed Parker. Just get an tapes of Cerio teaching and Parker teaching and watch them back to back.
    The definition of Master instructor can be loosely defined. Why did Parker recommend Cerio to Chow? It could be lots of reasons. Obviously he had to be a very exceptional student to be recommended to Chow. Maybe he wanted Cerio to go back the original techniques and then develop from them. For more info click here: http://www.nickcerioskenpo.com/prof_..._Biography.htm
    We don't know. We also can't compare people based on tape to tape especially since one started earlier and the other lived longer. With my statement earlier they did have the same master instructor (Chow) but not at the same time. I never said anything about duration of training since Ed Parker did study longer, yet Cerio visited him in the later years when Parker had moved on. According to the website, Chow awarded Cerio Godan (5th Dan) which was his highest ranking student at that time. Comparing Parker and Cerio is like comparing apples and oranges, and I wouldn't compare them by levels or compare at all. Both great men created great systems.

    As for Villari, my master talked about the same info on the pictures and he refused to bow to a poster of Villari. I know he doesn't like Villari and the system but he did say he received training from Chow. He didn't say how long or how often.
    Last edited by Kane508; 04-10-2008 at 02:28 PM. Reason: adding information

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    Default Re: a question about styles

    Quote Originally Posted by justthetruth View Post
    A dojo (道場, dōjō?) is a Japanese term which literally means "place of the Way". Initially, Dojo were adjunct to temples. The term can refer to a formal training place for any of the Japanese do arts but typically it is considered the formal gathering place for students of a martial arts style to conduct training, examinations and other related encounters.
    The concept of a dojo as a martial arts training place is a Western concept; in Japan, any physical training facility, including professional wrestling schools may be called dojos as well depending on the context.

    Thought this may help you...
    You are so funny, if you had put as much energy into answering the actual question, but I suppose quoting wikipedia isn't so much energy... I know what a dojo is, what I asked was what was your point in using the phrase "True Dojo" in the following post YOU made, especially since the poster you were admonishing and replying to did not mention the word dojo at all? It's not the definition, it was your use of it that is still confusing.

    Now rethink the trash talk and where it really is coming from. True dojo? True "martial artist school" Good luck in your pursuit of your training...
    Kenpo, moving in open piecewise Bézier curves since 2011

    Trying hard not to lapse into speaking kenponics

    Been doing computers since 1982, on forums, chats and all for nearly 3 decades. Only ever blocked one person.

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    SKKnidan is offline
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    Default Re: a question about styles

    Who is the leader of Kempo now? Who leads EPAK? Who leads Cerio kempo? Villari is still alive and there are many offshoots, but who is in charge?

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    Default Re: a question about styles

    Quote Originally Posted by SKKnidan View Post
    Who is the leader of Kempo now? Who leads EPAK? Who leads Cerio kempo? Villari is still alive and there are many offshoots, but who is in charge?
    I am.

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    Default Re: a question about styles

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyKBoxer View Post
    I am.
    Heh heh heh. That gave me a chuckle.

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    Default Re: a question about styles

    Quote Originally Posted by SKKnidan View Post
    Who is the leader of Kempo now? Who leads EPAK? Who leads Cerio kempo? Villari is still alive and there are many offshoots, but who is in charge?
    There is no "in charge." Different instructors exert varying amounts of influence over their students and their corner of the kenpo community. Some have more of an effect than others. Some have more to each than others. Other than that, it's pretty much open source karate.


    -Rob
    "All the time you're arguing over, is this kenpo, is that kenpo, you could be training!"

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    Default Re: a question about styles

    Quote Originally Posted by RaGeFiSt View Post
    hi all, iv got a few questions about some kenpo styles.
    i started kenpo about 5 months ago, my teacher is an 8th degree blackbelt in chinese kenpo karate that he says comes from nick cerio. i like the classes that he teaches its alot of fun and i like the techniques and forms etc. my friend just started american kenpo at a school and he asked me to come try it out with him today. so i did. the teachers at the school are nice, but they pretty much told me that what i was studying was complete junk. they said they had studied under my current teacher 20 years earlier when he was a third degree bb. they say their style is much better and to be honost what they were doing did seem effective. now the main teacher at this american kenpo school was telling me a bunch of stuff that i think is untrue like how nick cerio was only a purple belt before he created his own style etc. now the question i want to ask is this: what are the relationships/differences in cerio's chinese kenpo and ed parkers american kenpo and are both the styles effective?

    i always thought that the styles were different neither one was better, but the teacher at the american kenpo school thought differently.
    dont worry about offending me or anything i don't know much about the martial arts, thanks.

    Short answer: "IT'S NOT JUST WHAT YOU KNOW, IT'S HOW YOU TRAIN". Every martial art can be/is effective. Your previous position of each being different but none being better is pretty much on point as a general rule. There are specific exceptions to the rule but even these exceptions fall along predetermined lines [ exceptional curriculum designed by exceptional instructors who in turn attract exceptional students who become exceptional instructors who then continue the pattern...and of course the time honored devastating combo of "exceptional curriculum+exceptional student=exceptional results"]. I hold BB in both disciplines and the differences aren't that gargantuan at all. Good luck with your martial journey, friend.

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    Default Re: a question about styles

    Quote Originally Posted by SKKnidan View Post
    Who is the leader of Kempo now? Who leads EPAK? Who leads Cerio kempo? Villari is still alive and there are many offshoots, but who is in charge?
    Shaolin Kempo: Villari heads his own organization and Mattera leads his (although I think there was another break off on his)
    Nick Cerio's Kempo: No one, the organization disbanded and each school/instructor sets their own stuff.
    EPAK: No one, each lineage has it's own instructor and head of their own organization. Larry Tatum is in charge of his organization, Paul Mills is in charge of his own organization, Jeff Speakman is in charge of his own organization, Mike Pick is in charge of his own organization and so on and so forth.
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

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    Default Re: a question about styles

    Wow. Looking at how long this thread sat silent, can you say, "Necro"?
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    Default Re: a question about styles

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    Shaolin Kempo: Villari heads his own organization and Mattera leads his (although I think there was another break off on his)
    Nick Cerio's Kempo: No one, the organization disbanded and each school/instructor sets their own stuff.
    EPAK: No one, each lineage has it's own instructor and head of their own organization. Larry Tatum is in charge of his organization, Paul Mills is in charge of his own organization, Jeff Speakman is in charge of his own organization, Mike Pick is in charge of his own organization and so on and so forth.
    There are as many varieties of Shaolin Kempo as there are EPKK. Maybe more. I used to joke that training to green then going off on your own was just how SKK did things... In fact I was pressured to open a school at blue "all your students will be white belts so you'll be qualified to teach them" LOL
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    Default Re: a question about styles

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    Wow. Looking at how long this thread sat silent, can you say, "Necro"?
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

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