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Thread: Kara-Ho Kempo Karate

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    Default Kara-Ho Kempo Karate

    Found this while playing around on YouTube . Pretty much the way I learned and/or saw these done. The first "Line Techniques" are a little different and more stylized, but pretty much the same. Interesting to see the different direction Mr. Kuoha took things compared to. Mr. Parker, Mr. Chun, and Sijo Emperado.
    "To be, rather than to seem"

    "Fix your rear foot ... What the hell is wrong with you?"

    "...I already watched the videos, and quite frankly, they're bullsh*t."

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    Default Re: Kara-Ho Kempo Karate

    Old friend Tadashi looked good in the movie clips.
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    Default Re: Kara-Ho Kempo Karate

    It looks like the same tech with different endings. It looked great for lunge punches. Not sure about close in applications.

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    Default Re: Kara-Ho Kempo Karate

    The first several do build on the previous one, all with that same ending. Did you watch the whole thing?
    "To be, rather than to seem"

    "Fix your rear foot ... What the hell is wrong with you?"

    "...I already watched the videos, and quite frankly, they're bullsh*t."

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    Default Re: Kara-Ho Kempo Karate

    Most until my internet kept disconecting. II liked the clip it's just unclear to me how to use the same tech in "contemporary" fighting applications. I lliked the breathing and the kicks were awesome too! I imagine that Doc and his crew practice in the same spirit as well as others here on this forum known and unknown.

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    Default Re: Kara-Ho Kempo Karate

    OK, if we want to talk about this with the same scrutiny we have given to others, lets pick a technique and discuss its efficacy as real world self defense. I feel there is a difference between martial arts techniques for the sake of a martial art, versus a self defense perspective that brings a degree of reality to the discussion. Let's start with "Advanced" technique number one. What do we see? Begin with the attack, apply Psychology of Confrontation and go from there. Now we are dissecting as opposed to just "criticizing." Constructive Analysis should be welcome by all who are students as we are.
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    Default Re: Kara-Ho Kempo Karate

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    It looks like the same tech with different endings. It looked great for lunge punches. Not sure about close in applications.
    Interesting observation sir.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Default Re: Kara-Ho Kempo Karate

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    OK, if we want to talk about this with the same scrutiny we have given to others, lets pick a technique and discuss its efficacy as real world self defense. I feel there is a difference between martial arts techniques for the sake of a martial art, versus a self defense perspective that brings a degree of reality to the discussion. Let's start with "Advanced" technique number one. What do we see? Begin with the attack, apply Psychology of Confrontation and go from there. Now we are dissecting as opposed to just "criticizing." Constructive Analysis should be welcome by all who are students as we are.
    the "attack" was a long reverse punch, followed by the classic " stand there while the attackee executes a series of things in the general direction of various areas....."

    i guess if there was even any thought given to Psychology of Confrontation, it would be the hope that by some miracle the punch landed and that was it.
    but maybe not, since there was no footwork other than the lead leg moving forward to elongate the stance ( there is a term for that, but I can't remember it now), and no torso rotation to speak of, nor any hint of a followup.
    Last edited by MarkC; 08-28-2014 at 11:15 PM.
    "To be, rather than to seem"

    "Fix your rear foot ... What the hell is wrong with you?"

    "...I already watched the videos, and quite frankly, they're bullsh*t."

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    Default Re: Kara-Ho Kempo Karate

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkC View Post
    The first several do build on the previous one, all with that same ending. Did you watch the whole thing?
    No. I hated it.
    Also Mastering Tsing Tao.

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    Default Re: Kara-Ho Kempo Karate

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    No. I hated it.
    Comon now, let's be constructive. You're certainly entitled, and I may even share your opinion, but tell us why you hated it.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Default Re: Kara-Ho Kempo Karate

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkC View Post
    the "attack" was a long reverse punch, followed by the classic " stand there while the attackee executes a series of things in the general direction of various areas....."

    i guess if there was even any thought given to Psychology of Confrontation, it would be the hope that by some miracle the punch landed and that was it.
    but maybe not, since there was no footwork other than the lead leg moving forward to elongate the stance ( there is a term for that, but I can't remember it now), and no torso rotation to speak of, nor any hint of a followup.
    That's a good place to start. The attacks were completely unrealistic and more akin to stylistic artistic mandates of the martial arts over practicality. Very interesting considering its supposed source, of Professor Chow. His specialty was the reality of the street, and it was his perspective that spawned the field of "self defense focused" martial arts. None of that seems to be present here with the attacks, which almost singular seems to be all right punches.
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    Default Re: Kara-Ho Kempo Karate

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Comon now, let's be constructive. You're certainly entitled, and I may even share your opinion, but tell us why you hated it.
    Ok: Every time I watch them cover out I feel physical pain; they seem to have a grasp on kajukenbo style kicking (as I understand it) but those hand basics wouldn't be of any real service in a fight; If you have to break posture to get the elbow shot, it just might be an indication that you are too far away for that basic, or maybe martial arts just isn't your thing.
    Also Mastering Tsing Tao.

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    Default Re: Kara-Ho Kempo Karate

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    Ok: Every time I watch them cover out I feel physical pain; they seem to have a grasp on kajukenbo style kicking (as I understand it) but those hand basics wouldn't be of any real service in a fight; If you have to break posture to get the elbow shot, it just might be an indication that you are too far away for that basic, or maybe martial arts just isn't your thing.
    That's a bit harsh. Unfortunately, it is quite accurate. To me, everything seems to be an overly stylized flair as if trying to establish an identity of physical movement that is recognizable, over actually being functional. Combined with the wholly unrealistic attacks of static step through punches that never give any appearance of threatening the defender, and the defenders dependence on the attacker "freezing" after the "attack," puts this in "performance art" territory for me, and not even slightly close to self defense.

    But in fairness, I've seen some of their stuff before that seem to be a mixture of TKD style kicks, and some weird one sided defense for all the right punches in the world, followed by a breathing exercise.

    OK. I hated it too, and found little redeeming value you in it.
    KenpoChanger likes this.
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    Default Re: Kara-Ho Kempo Karate

    You remember our communications about these very subjects when I was training with some of these guys a few years ago sir, and my frustration with the unrealistic movie style self-defense techniques.
    Watching this brings up a question I've pondered in the past. Many, if not most martial arts schools in the past, and still today, practice against stepthrough right punches. In spite of this, some actually become able to fight, and to defend themselves. Professor Chow , Mr. Parker...there's a pretty good list of men who can be seen practicing and teaching defense against these kinds of stylized attacks, yet they have the reputation of being formidable streetfighters.
    I tend to think this is in spite of, rather than because of the practice against stepthrough punches. But what possible benefit could be realized from it, other than in the very beginning stages allowing a beginning student the time to execute newly learned techniques against slow, telegraphed punches?

    Here's the video we've all seen of Professor Chow demonstrating. Although not exactly the classic stepthrough attack, still not very realistic...
    "To be, rather than to seem"

    "Fix your rear foot ... What the hell is wrong with you?"

    "...I already watched the videos, and quite frankly, they're bullsh*t."

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    Default Re: Kara-Ho Kempo Karate

    I'm trying to make sense out of the strange cover out....The opening counter i understand... inward parry with a hammer fist to the bicep, but this cover out is one of the strangest things i've ever seen
    Tradition is not about the preservation of the ashes, but about keeping the flame alive

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    Default Re: Kara-Ho Kempo Karate

    I don't think that's a cover out if you're talking about the end parts of the Line Techniques. Their cover out is basically one step through reverse or something. You can see that in the "advanced techniques" later in the video.
    "To be, rather than to seem"

    "Fix your rear foot ... What the hell is wrong with you?"

    "...I already watched the videos, and quite frankly, they're bullsh*t."

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    Default Re: Kara-Ho Kempo Karate

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkC View Post
    I don't think that's a cover out if you're talking about the end parts of the Line Techniques.
    Yea..Thats what i'm talking about...whatever that is i've never seen anyone else do it before
    Tradition is not about the preservation of the ashes, but about keeping the flame alive

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    Default Re: Kara-Ho Kempo Karate

    Quote Originally Posted by KirkS View Post
    Yea..Thats what i'm talking about...whatever that is i've never seen anyone else do it before
    We did that as a leg strengthening exercise in some Tracy's Kenpo I took in Colorado.
    Also Mastering Tsing Tao.

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    Default Re: Kara-Ho Kempo Karate

    Quote Originally Posted by KirkS View Post
    I'm trying to make sense out of the strange cover out....The opening counter i understand... inward parry with a hammer fist to the bicep, but this cover out is one of the strangest things i've ever seen
    I think this goes back to what I was saying about "style over function." I know a guy who does a form of "Kenpo" as he calls it, and he ends every technique with a cross out and forward roll back to his feet in a fighting stance. While I'm sure on some level there can be found a function for such actions eventually, what he has done is create a "signature" move in his techniques that make the actions identifiable as uniquely his. People seem to struggle with the necessity to establish their own identity first, and their art second. I think that is what "someone," did and slapped Sifu Chow's name on it, (with his permission), to create something uniquely "different." Not for the sake of the art, but as a unique identifying marker of identity. The interesting thing is Sifu Chow never did any techniques that resemble any of the material that bears his name, especially the TKD style kicks which he didn't believe in.
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    Default Re: Kara-Ho Kempo Karate

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkC View Post
    You remember our communications about these very subjects when I was training with some of these guys a few years ago sir, and my frustration with the unrealistic movie style self-defense techniques.
    Watching this brings up a question I've pondered in the past. Many, if not most martial arts schools in the past, and still today, practice against stepthrough right punches. In spite of this, some actually become able to fight, and to defend themselves. Professor Chow , Mr. Parker...there's a pretty good list of men who can be seen practicing and teaching defense against these kinds of stylized attacks, yet they have the reputation of being formidable streetfighters.
    I tend to think this is in spite of, rather than because of the practice against stepthrough punches. But what possible benefit could be realized from it, other than in the very beginning stages allowing a beginning student the time to execute newly learned techniques against slow, telegraphed punches?

    Here's the video we've all seen of Professor Chow demonstrating. Although not exactly the classic stepthrough attack, still not very realistic...
    In my experience, the cultural "way" arts used this almost exclusively in the applications of their arts as part of that very cultural foundation. Although it is clearly not the best way to learn how to defend against street punches, it does offer "something" coming at you to train against. In conjunction with other methods of training, the astute and capable will, as you say, learn in spite of not because of this training method. For me its just an example of the thought process of those who created their various "way" arts. Much like the convoluted Kara-Ho method, it is laden with a priority of identity first above all else. In fact, that was the entire focus of my experience with many of the "do" arts. It must be done a certain "way," because that is how "we" do it. So-and-so style does it another way and we can't do it like they do, because someone might think we're doing their style.

    What they mistook from the Chinese is the meticulous nature of execution was directly related to function, something seen more often in Okinawa interpretation of "te." But, because of the culture of Japan the progenitors method will always take precedent over function. Anyone who knows anything about the Japanese Culture knows it is highly ritualized on every level of polite society. How you sit, arrange flowers, serve meals, exchange business cards, etc. This is part and parcel of the culture that is also a part of their interpretations of the their "way" arts. Without knowing the "why" of movements, they mistook this attention to detail, and interpreted through the lens of their own culture.

    Ultimately when I began my early "Kenpo" study, Mr. Parker presented me with his totally unique approach. It was he that taught me to design a defense, you must first meticulous examine and define the attack, down to the motivations and goals of the attacker. Only then will you begin the process of bringing practical realism to the problem you are examining to find a viable solution. It is a component of his proposed "Ideal Phase" most seem to leave out. Mostly because many feel by taking the technique as written, the work has already been done. It Hasn't.

    Mr. Parker presented the phases, but never defined any of the material within the phases. He was trying to teach people "how" to think. This was one of his stated goals in his Kenpo Karate vehicle. Because of the conceptual nature of the art, students had to be more astute thinkers and learn how to analyze and create. The guideline are clear, but students were always tasked with creating the material for Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate. Mr. Parker only issued "guidelines." It is impossible to teach meticulous basics from a book, video, or manual and he was only one person. Therefore any other concept that would require his ongoing presence would have been impossible.

    "Kenpo Karate" in the form he adopted for commercialization could not work any other way. Unfortunately, students took the outlines and began arguing about "how" the techniques should be done to maintain the "Kenpo identity," instead of asking the question of what does it take to make it functional. So, much like other arts, it has fallen into the malaise of its identity, and is the reason most move with the same speedy, sloppy, execution that looks the way they think its supposed to look. Everything else doesn't matter. Of course there are exceptions, but they are rare, but then so are "thinkers."

    When I first saw Sifu Chow at CKC performing the demo, I was taken aback by many aspects of the man's demeanor and execution of his art. It prompted a discussion with Mr. Parker because what I saw was a huge departure of what I anticipated from what I knew about him. Mr. Parker always described him as "tough, practical, no nonsense." No flair, plain uniform wearing killer of a martial artist, with a quiet unassuming demeanor.

    Mr. Parker had told me earlier about the falling out disagreement he had with Sifu Chow. He said, when he left Hawaii after getting his black belts, he promised Sifu Chow once he was settled, he would send for him to live with him and his family and establish "Kenpo Karate" on the mainland. As he promised when he opened his second location, he spoke with Sifu Chow and told him he was now prepared to bring him over to live. But Chow didn't want to leave his island home. He wasn't educated, and couldn't read or write very well and Mr. Parker surmised he would just not be comfortable leaving the island he had known all his life to go to a somewhat different culture and living experience. Sifu Chow, according to Mr. Parker said, "You're on your own, I release you from your promise."

    But, as Mr. Parker's notoriety grew and he became "famous," Sifu Chow became more and more disgruntled at the accolades Mr. Parker was receiving in the martial arts world, while he languished in poverty and obscurity. This was even though Mr. Parker always gave credit to him for the direction he took in the art, and for Chow's teaching. I believe it was along this time that others began to exploit Chow again, (after Mitose). Chow was poor, and was picking up cans along the beaches to support himself, and ultimately approached Mr. Parker again. I feel had Chow's approach been different, the outcome would have been much more positive. According to Mr. Parker, Chow told him, "You big shot now and you owe me." I knew you never approached Mr. Parker this way. If you backed him into a corner, he would fight you even if he didn't want to. Parker then told him, "I kept my promise to you, and you turned me down and released me. I paid for all of my lessons to you, and I don't owe you anything."

    It was then that Sifu Chow would make disparaging remarks about Mr. Parker and others he felt had abandoned him and went on to fame and fortune "forgetting" about him. At one point in an interview in Black Belt Magazine he said, Parker was only a purple belt, and "The Professor" had decided to elevate himself to 15th degree. Then came the bright colored decorated uniforms and the flashy movements in an attempt, in my opinion, to gain some of the spotlight he felt he deserved. Because of his inability to read, or write and lack of education, Chow was easily exploited by others until he passed away.

    The video simply reminds me of what he was trying to be. A desperate attempt by a man who was already an incredible martial artist, to get the attention he felt he deserved by adopting the flash, as he perceived it, of others.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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