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Thread: Shorin Ryu = Kenpo?

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    CaptShady Guest

    Default Shorin Ryu = Kenpo?

    I see a thread mentioning katas of shorin-ryu, so if I may, a couple questions.

    1) What is shorin-ryu's relation with kenpo?
    2) Does shorin-ryu have ties to EPAK (whether predecessor, or successor)?
    3) How does Mr. Juchnik tie in to kenpo, EPAK, and shorin-ryu?
    4) How many splits or subsystems of shorin-ryu are there?
    5) Is it pronounced like "Sho dawn roo"?

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    Default Re: Shorin Ryu = Kenpo?

    1. shorin ryu karate is the art that was brought to okinawa by soken matsumura, shorin ryu IS kempo......it is what soken matsumura was taught when he was in china learning shaolinssu chuanfa (shorin kempo, japanese pronunciation)
    2. dont know.
    3. hanshi juchnik (of kosho ryu) studied tracy kenpo, and studied under james mitose
    4. many
    5. "R" in japanese is kind of rolled of the tongue and comes out as an "L" sound, hence the romaji spelling "Shorin" which would be pronounced "Sho-Lin", sounds like shaolin, no?

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    Default Re: Shorin Ryu = Kenpo?

    Hi All,

    I just wanted to add that the name Shorin, is actually Shoa-lin in Chinese.

    Anko Ituso was the composer/inventor of the pinan Kata, he was born is Shuri Okinawa.

    The most basic is the Fukyugata ichi by Shoshin Nagamine, he was born in Tomari Okinawa.

    Fukyugata Nidan was composed/inventor by Chosin Chibana, he was born in Shuri Okinawa.

    Fukyugata Sandan was composed/inventor by Ansei Ueshiro, he was born in 1933 and composed the Kata in 1960.

    Shawn how have you been? I have been busy and will not post much but I will post.

    I am studing with Hanshi at this time, I have recently seen many documents to substantuate the position that Hanshi takes on the origin of the art Kosho Ryu and the lineage.
    I have been studing Kanji, Hiragana and Katakana. I understand now much more clearly the confusion, because of the language and the difficulty.
    The cursory information I have received is mind boggling...

    Because of my like for weapons I am studing the Sword.
    I see the relationship between the writing with a brush and the application of the hits when used in the art. The Mother dot representing the initial strike, and the following strokes related to the strikes. All things coming off the center. Similar to the JKD thought pattern.

    Centerline is nothing new just reinforced.

    I will still continue my FMA study, Hanshi has now begun teaching his take on the Cabalas system. Interesting...

    Regards, Gary

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    Default Re: Shorin Ryu = Kenpo?

    sounds like you're having fun. keep up with the brush work........shodo is a very rewarding study. im jealous that you get to study with hanshi!!
    keep me posted on anything new you hear.... blackcatbonz@sympatico.ca

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    Default Re: Shorin Ryu = Kenpo?

    Hi Shawn,

    After posting I went on a vacation and am back since yesterday.

    Learning from Hanshi is a good thing, but if you think I speak in riddles he is also very prone to that. It is something I have seen in most of the writings of the ancients and others. It is something you either do or don't.

    I am reading a book at this time on Okinawan history "Shodokan's Secret", very interesting to say the least.

    When I was gone I was able to get into a couple of sites that I have been restricted from. I was reading Sanjosekenpo, you have been busy, as others your view seems to upset some that don't seem to grasp the whole of the art.

    It seems that most of the persons who are in the art's are very bigoted, it is to be expected, since we come from bigoted societies. The situation as I see it will always be the same. Even though we are all glad handing the Constitution we all have our own niche.

    What I like to see is the idea that we can still put forth our ideas and not be ridiculed or deleted. But that is not how it happens on most of the various board forums.

    I am rambling and need to get back to the topic.

    The book that I mentioned is a must read by the way. I was given the tip by another who is very interested in the History and even though we may disagree we still agree.

    The book covers where most of today's Kata's come from and how they evolved (authors opinion). As we were saying in the above post is pretty much the way this author sees it (Bruce D. Clayton Ph.D).

    Take care, Gary

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    Smile Re: Shorin Ryu = Kenpo?

    Hi all,

    Just a quick comment to Kirks question about Hanshi Bruce Juchnik.

    Shorin Ryu has many kata's that are taught in most of the systems in one form or another.
    Some of the movements are in AK so that is one of the reasons for a lot of the controversy about Ed Parker and his system, you can change the name or the title but you can not change the movement.

    If you are as familiar with the arts as Hanshi is and has been for 28 years since he received probably his 5th black belt in as many systems and now has black belts in more then a dozen and growing. You have to remember he was an accomplished Black belt and teaching in numerous schools at the time when he first met James Mitose in 1977.
    I'll use this time (28 years ago)when he realized it was a revelation that he received and has been on his journey ever since.

    To make a simple statement that he knows 50 Katas that he could probably do on a moments notice might be stretching the point a little but not much.

    Kind of like a singer that has 100 songs in his bag.

    And since I have used that similarity it is one of the ways Hanshi looks at katas (like music), he is a musician and has played with a lot of big named stars.

    He is a base guitar person and was very popular with groups. Having a good time playing in bars drinking and fighting. That was his life for many many years.

    So he is now teaching at schools around the country and outside of the US.

    He also puts on an annual "Gathering" that he has been doing for about 18 years. The names that come to the Gathering are a who's who in the martail arts world. From many many system's

    Their will be a gathering in Reno this year at the Reno Hilton the first week-end in October. There is more information at the Martial Arts Collective Society.

    Todd Martin wrote an article for the news letter back in March of 2000 about Ed Parker. It was in the newsletter that paid tribute to Hanshi John Pachivas a 10th dan in the Shuri-ryu system of Robert Trias founding. Hanshi Dan was the sucessor of the system after Robert Trias Passed.

    So this group is not as selective as others, we acknowledge the other systems and try to get along, if you can't do that than you are just showing disrespect for the Martial Arts.

    Regards, Gary

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    Smile Re: Shorin Ryu = Kenpo?

    Hi Captshady,

    I was taking a break and went back and tried to find and did. An interview with Patrick McCarthy about the Universal application and defense themes that came out of China and were handed down through the 36 Familys and other Chinese persons to the Ryukyu's. Then through the "Pechin class" Law Enforcement, Guards etc..

    Patrick McCarthy goes on to say and I quote the interview.....
    *****
    Well, based upon this universal truth, man has continually pursued different ways through which to learn and improve these infinite principles. Through generations of emperical observation spirtial recluses in the monastic sanctuaries of ancient China were able to identify and catalogue no less than 36 different defensive themes. In an effort to address each of these random yet habitual acts of physcial violence, that plagued the plebeian socitey in which they dwelt, individual application principles were meticulously forged which also employed as many as seventy-two different variations. Ultimately,
    eighteen individual exercises (called hsing/kata) came to represent a total of one hundred and eight defensive themes and application principles. Historically, this phenomena represents the foundation upon which karate unfolded. Kata has customarily served the principal vehicle through which the "secrets" of karate have been handed down over the generations....
    *****
    The interview goes on but this is what I thought was interesting. Sort of a scientific way of finding the right way to protect ones self (Karate).

    Just to let you know they use the new word "karate" in this interview because they have replaced all the other names (to be universal) so Karate is it when talking about the fighting techs of open (empty) Hand.

    Also if you read about the various styles that came out of this, quite a few if not all are either teachers dedicated and controlled by the govenment or Law enforcement of some kind.

    Regards, Gary

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    Default Re: Shorin Ryu = Kenpo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary A Brewer
    Just to let you know they use the new word "karate" in this interview because they have replaced all the other names (to be universal) so Karate is it when talking about the fighting techs of open (empty) Hand.
    It is my opinion that the change to "empty hand" was not necessarily to reflect "bare handed fighting." When the kempo of the okinawans was introduced into the Japanese public school system, they could not very well teach the nerve strikes to 6 year olds, so they preserved the movements by slightly changing the targets and striking weapons to be safer, intending to introduce the knowledge of the vital points later. It would be easy to do, if the movements remained correct.
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


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    Default Re: Shorin Ryu = Kenpo?

    i dont buy into the theory that every movement in the kata's was a nerve strike. when breaking down the movements of a kata it is important to look at the movements that would be considered transitions. if you are familiar with a kata like heian shodan and look at the first two movements, gedan barai and oi-zuki, there are many more applications there than just the obvious.
    funakoshi wasnt the greatest karate master of all time either, and i think you can see that with the standard applications the people learn when first applying movements in kata.

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    Smile Re: Shorin Ryu = Kenpo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcatbonz
    i dont buy into the theory that every movement in the kata's was a nerve strike. when breaking down the movements of a kata it is important to look at the movements that would be considered transitions. if you are familiar with a kata like heian shodan and look at the first two movements, gedan barai and oi-zuki, there are many more applications there than just the obvious.
    funakoshi wasnt the greatest karate master of all time either, and i think you can see that with the standard applications the people learn when first applying movements in kata.
    Hi,

    It was credited to Funakoshi because he changed the character that denoted China ie: "China hand" and then it was Karate which is "empty hand". He was a school teacher and on the payroll of the Japanese Government at the time.
    Which goes along with what I have been saying about the original art being borrowed from China just like the written language.

    Japan changing and wanting to have its stamp put on the way it was written.
    This is one of the things that is hard for me to get around regarding empty hand vs China Hand we now know that it happened in Japan and in the time frame of Funakoshi.
    So when we read for example that I have empty hands etc. and trying to connect this history it starts to show small cracks and the story is weak.

    Regards, Gary

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    Default Re: Shorin Ryu = Kenpo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcatbonz
    i dont buy into the theory that every movement in the kata's was a nerve strike. when breaking down the movements of a kata it is important to look at the movements that would be considered transitions. if you are familiar with a kata like heian shodan and look at the first two movements, gedan barai and oi-zuki, there are many more applications there than just the obvious.
    funakoshi wasnt the greatest karate master of all time either, and i think you can see that with the standard applications the people learn when first applying movements in kata.
    I don't think that everything is a nerve strike, either. I think that the katas preserved the principles of movement, and that the nerve strike applications were left out of the teaching until the students were older or more mature.
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


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    Default Re: Shorin Ryu = Kenpo?

    the switch of the first character in karate was also in reference to the buddhist religion. the attitude that one must take in order to excel in karate.

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    Default Re: Shorin Ryu = Kenpo?

    A couple of things as I see them:

    1) Matsumura probably learned Fukienese kung fu and blended it with native te and tegumi as well as his training in Jigen-ryu bugei (sword, jo and perhaps empty hand). Oral tradition says that te owes some of its techniques to India and Southeast Asia. So while you could indeed call the kung fu component ken/mpo, it's not the whole of it.

    2) Okinawan martial arts were primarily transmitted within families through kuden. Most of them didn't even have names. The cultural tradition is totally different from the Japanese custom of recording everything.

    3) Okinawan systems with lots of kata are pretty recent. Before Meiji, most systems probably had a handful. Even later inventions like Uechi-ryu started with no more than three. These kata were worked with extreme detail to the extent that Choki Motobu described each on as a complete martial system.

    4) A genuine Okinawan system has many methods which are *not* kata, in the form of various drills and types of sparring. Wrestling techniques are a part of this, since tegumi is actually one or two separate cultural combat sports (wrist wrestling and knockdown grappling). Thus, I find arguments for groundfighting in kata implausible.

    5) Kata are really idealized modes of movement. Without sparring and other drills, you cannot make proper use of kata, since the techniques are basically extensions of model movements and postures.

    6) I would certainly like to know how Okinawan fighting arts were transmitted to kosho-ryu and other Japanese/Hawaaian ken/mpo systems.

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    Default Re: Shorin Ryu = Kenpo?

    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
    A couple of things as I see them:

    5) Kata are really idealized modes of movement. Without sparring and other drills, you cannot make proper use of kata, since the techniques are basically extensions of model movements and postures.

    6) I would certainly like to know how Okinawan fighting arts were transmitted to kosho-ryu and other Japanese/Hawaaian ken/mpo systems.
    5. I really dont look at kata as if they're "ideal", or even if they're imaginary fights. i put up a post in the okinawan kempo section explaining my thoughts and conclusions. take a look at the kata "Sanchin"....that pattern is strictly about learning correct form as it relates to breathing and movement.

    6. As far as Kosho goes.....i dont know if i buy into the whole okinawan connection.....especially if it only extends to naihanchi kata. Kosho is about as far removed from okinawan karate as you can get.
    We practice a lot of Okinawan Kata in kosho though. but this is really as a preservation measure. Hanshi Juchnik would like the students of Kosho to be martial arts historians, he is very big on the preservation of teachings of all styles of martial arts.
    the other hawaiian systems adopted whatever influences and forms on their own.

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    Thumbs up Re: Shorin Ryu = Kenpo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave
    It is my opinion that the change to "empty hand" was not necessarily to reflect "bare handed fighting." When the kempo of the okinawans was introduced into the Japanese public school system, they could not very well teach the nerve strikes to 6 year olds, so they preserved the movements by slightly changing the targets and striking weapons to be safer, intending to introduce the knowledge of the vital points later. It would be easy to do, if the movements remained correct.
    Well put Dave!


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

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    Default Re: Shorin Ryu = Kenpo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave
    I don't think that everything is a nerve strike, either. I think that the katas preserved the principles of movement, and that the nerve strike applications were left out of the teaching until the students were older or more mature.
    FULLY agree sir!!


    good insight!


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    Wink Re: Shorin Ryu = Kenpo?

    Hi,
    Regarding Okinawan Kata in Kosho is:
    Respect to Robert Trias.
    Another is as Shawn said, preservation of the Kata.

    Regards, Gary

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    Default Re: Shorin Ryu = Kenpo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary A Brewer
    Hi,
    Regarding Okinawan Kata in Kosho is:
    Respect to Robert Trias.
    Another is as Shawn said, preservation of the Kata.

    Regards, Gary
    nice to see you back, Gary!

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    Wink Re: Shorin Ryu = Kenpo?

    Thanks Shawn,

    First time any moderator on Kenpotalk said that LOL... I have been busy and went to Texas on a Hog hunt. My wife said, I have lost brain cells and regressed to my good/bad old days...LOL Lots of Boar and shooting.

    I see you have a helper (Brother John) I must say I approve of both of you very much.

    Since the thread is still going I thought I would say something in it. It appears if this forum lasts it will get to the right and honorable beginnings.

    Good for all in the world of Kenpo and Martial Arts as a whole.

    Regards, Gary

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    Default Re: Shorin Ryu = Kenpo?

    For part of 1996 and most of 97 I was studying Matsubayashi Ryu down near Jamie Seabrook. While most of what I learn felt odd to me it also had a familiarity. I could also see the corelations between the Tradional Art and the formulations of American Kenpo. It was pretty interesting.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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