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Thread: Kosho Ryu and China

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    Smile Kosho Ryu and China

    Hi all,
    I thought I would start a new thread and talk about the background of Kosho Shorie Ryu Kempo.

    Lets start with a few questions and see if anyone is interested in the story that is being tracked down and changing as we speak.

    Not really changing just being put together better because of some of the other systems finding that their roots are of a similar nature.

    Remember all roads do not go to the Okinawan Islands. It is very much like the evolutionary tree for mankind. You find quite a few branch's that are close, but not the one we are after.

    Once the arts had a beginning they did have intercourse with other systems and because of the mating, (it was two systems), and then it made up one entity, (system) similar to the complexity of man.

    Anyone want to make a go of it?

    Regards, Gary

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    Default Re: Kosho Ryu and China

    Hell

    I'm just making a go of figuring out the "Gary-ese" in the post.

    Let's take a look at what were the influences of HJnashi Juchnik's training. What aspects of training has Hanshi Juchnik mfollowed up on?

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    Smile Re: Kosho Ryu and China

    Hi Kai,

    Thank you for replying, I am sure we can make a go of this, just because.

    Now Hanshi Bruce.

    Multi talented and very knowledgeable, thick skinned and plods along on the same road daily (path).

    He is a true practioner of the whole pie not just a piece of it (martial arts). Kata, weapons (sword, knife, sai, jo, sticks) and anything else that can and has been turned into a weapon by man.

    Empty hand is one of his specialties, which he has perfected to a masterpiece of precision and very deadly, to say the least...

    I think he is a very good practioner of the arts and at the same time he is struggling with life, like any other human who has a family and other responsibilities.

    So he is a commercial wizard, selling DVD's and his time. Some time to the highest bidder some time it is to the lowest bidder depends on the need for the elusive thing we call money. Puts on Gathering's for the sake of brotherhood of the arts and at the same time putting some of the green in his pocket to be spent quite fast due to his lifestyle.

    The part of Hanshi's abilities that I have captivated on are his video's, seminar's, and personal training.
    I actually spend most of my time in a Dojo of one of his senior Black Belts
    Sensei Pat Kelly.

    I am currently interested in Kosho and FMA (filipino martial arts).
    Hanshi teachs the Angel Cabalas system of Escrima with a twist (hanshi's Kosho added, economy of motion and the natural law of motion, particularly to the movements of the human body).

    Of course Hanshi is still very much into, the seeking of the "whole pie" of Kosho. He received a piece of it from James Mitose and is still working on that.

    Regards, Gary

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    Default Re: Kosho Ryu and China

    Wow pretty warts and all

    Sure Juchnik probably got a idea from Mitose with what he wanted to do, but what were the influences behind the movements

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    Smile Re: Kosho Ryu and China

    Quote Originally Posted by The Kai
    Wow pretty warts and all

    Sure Juchnik probably got a idea from Mitose with what he wanted to do, but what were the influences behind the movements
    Hi Kai,

    Yes.
    Influences, were numerous systems. Tracy's, and if you mention that you have to say Parker for that is where they started and of course William Chow and if you go there then you have to say Mitose.
    He also was involved in Fencing, Escrima, Arnis, Kung Fu, Kickboxing, and many more. He was searching and had mentioned Mitose in one of his classes as being dead (he believed) and got some information from a guard at Folsom prison. The guard thought (was right) he was one and the same as Hanshi was talking about.

    He met up with James Mitose and from there it is pretty well talked about and run into the ground.

    After that period of time the Kenpo world changed course and now Mitose was back into the picture. By Hanshi and Al Tracy and Thomas Mitose.

    Hanshi lived a military youngsters life, both his parents were Officers in the military and he was exposed to Martial arts at an early age and continued from that start. He has over 40 years in Martial arts of some kind or all kinds.
    He has always been very interested in the art of war.
    After James Mitose's death in prison. Thomas Mitose and Bruce were together for about 10 years and then went their own ways.

    Bruce Juchnik has an insatiable appetite when it comes to history and information regarding Martial arts. There is a lot more information now due to the internet.
    San Jose Kenpo has a lot of information as does Tracy and other websites.
    Some good, some bad and some ugly website are out there also, depending on your take on the information and your bent to a view that has been purported.

    I have seen much documentation and heard many stories and read even more about it in the last couple of years than in any other time in my life.
    I have known Bruce since in the late 80's and Pat Kelly since the early 90's.

    I hope more will come out in the future (regarding the story of where this particular branch of Martial Arts stems (Kosho Shorei Kempo). I understand there are several books in the works, so we will see.

    Regards, Gary

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    Default Re: Kosho Ryu and China

    Well since Tracy's Kenpo came be traced back to little ol' ed parker, lets assume that parker's and it's variations are a seperate topic? Shall we?
    So what is Hanshi's main influence physically, mentally and conceptually

    Escrima
    Tracy's Kenpo
    White Crane Kung Fu

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    Smile Re: Kosho Ryu and China

    Quote Originally Posted by The Kai
    Well since Tracy's Kenpo came be traced back to little ol' ed parker, lets assume that parker's and it's variations are a seperate topic? Shall we?
    So what is Hanshi's main influence physically, mentally and conceptually

    Escrima
    Tracy's Kenpo
    White Crane Kung Fu
    Hi Kai,

    Is this a statement? Or a question?

    Now regarding the topic.

    I have read and understand more now as to the importance of Chinese history and the distribution of their arts to the Ryukyu's and to the Islands of Japan and Indonesia and the Filipines, the boxers of China and the countries that lie on her borders. The Chinese go back 6500 (conservative) years with a form of writing that was and is still in use.

    The Ryukyu's brought us what we now call Karate.
    India to China brought us Kempo. (some even go further back then that)

    To understand this you have to go to the history by Historians and Anthropologist (both physcial and cultural) to get the story on a less crooked path.

    Regards, Gary

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    Default Re: Kosho Ryu and China

    Great ancient History lesson



    But what does that have to do with the modern style of Kenpo??



    What did/does Hanshi J bring into the system??

    What direction will Hanshi go?



    These are much more usefull questions then the Kosho and China nonsense

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    Default Re: Kosho Ryu and China

    Quote Originally Posted by The Kai
    Great ancient History lesson



    But what does that have to do with the modern style of Kenpo??



    What did/does Hanshi J bring into the system??

    What direction will Hanshi go?



    These are much more usefull questions then the Kosho and China nonsense
    todd.....i thought you had a nidan in kosho ryu?
    it always seems like you are so hostile whenever kosho is mentioned.
    am i wrong about this?

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    Smile Re: Kosho Ryu and China

    Quote Originally Posted by The Kai
    Great ancient History lesson
    But what does that have to do with the modern style of Kenpo??
    What did/does Hanshi J bring into the system??
    What direction will Hanshi go?
    These are much more usefull questions then the Kosho and China nonsense
    Hi Kai,

    What direction will Hanshi Go? Only Hanshi know!

    China nonsense.
    Well the reason for the China nonsense is because so many of the so called KeM/npo (mitose) experts are saying it all goes back to Okinawa and its art because of a few similarities. Kenpo and Kempo are similar because of the last 60 years of misinformation that has come out of the Hawaii campaign.

    What is so ridiculous is to say Mitose had nothing much to do with it.

    Another very blatent BS story that is continuing to be spread by these websites and forums is the fact that Mitose and Mobobu were related, yes related because they taught martial arts but other wise sorry, NO, Motobu was Royality from Okinawa.
    Just like saying The American Indian, and the wave of immigrants who landed on their shores were related because they put them into some type of bondage. (Japan subjugated the Ryukyu people).

    The martial Art of Koja and Goju ryu both have a branch in Okinawa, but the root of existence comes from China.

    Anyway that is the reason I am starting in China.

    What is kind of funny is the very thing these people who are from and were in the Hawaiian Islands did not want to be known is the art they are teaching is from Hawaii because of Mitose being there and they learning it from him.

    But the truth is just that, the truth.

    Hanshi brought in forms that he felt honored certain people who were responsible for the information he was after when he started his journey on spreading the name of James Mitose and he did it with Carte Blanche.

    It goes like this riddle "You remind me of a man, What man? The man with the power. What power? The power of whodo, whodo? You do, I do what?
    Remind me of a man.

    So that little limerick. Is all the answer anyone needs to know about Hanshi's
    Power, and where he is going with Kosho.

    Regards, Gary

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    Default Re: Kosho Ryu and China

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary A Brewer
    Hi all,
    I thought I would start a new thread and talk about the background of Kosho Shorie Ryu Kempo.

    Lets start with a few questions and see if anyone is interested in the story that is being tracked down and changing as we speak.

    Not really changing just being put together better because of some of the other systems finding that their roots are of a similar nature.

    Remember all roads do not go to the Okinawan Islands. It is very much like the evolutionary tree for mankind. You find quite a few branch's that are close, but not the one we are after.

    Once the arts had a beginning they did have intercourse with other systems and because of the mating, (it was two systems), and then it made up one entity, (system) similar to the complexity of man.

    Anyone want to make a go of it?

    Regards, Gary
    I'll go with a base of Shorei Ryu with an emphasis on pressure points as taught by the monk Koshokun.

    Koshokun + Shorei Ryu = Koshoshorei
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


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    Smile Re: Kosho Ryu and China

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave
    I'll go with a base of Shorei Ryu with an emphasis on pressure points as taught by the monk Koshokun.

    Koshokun + Shorei Ryu = Koshoshorei
    Hi Dave,

    I see that you have been listening to Master Ray, or actually it could have come from any of the seniors such as Master Ted or of course Master Al.

    You know when I saw this post my mind started racing (as it some times does) seeing the word Sho and Kun and then my mind goes to the Kanji and Kana.

    This is all part of the training that is in Kosho Shorei Ryu that Hanshi teach's in his advanced seminars.

    The more you learn the more you realize how much information that is out in the world about things you are not privy to.

    When I say that I am talking about the various organizations that are for the public domain, sure it becomes public to a degree but you have to belong to the organization to learn the (secret hand shake sort of).

    Well, in Kosho it is not about the secrets it is about the quanity and quality of information that is out in that part of the Martial Arts world.

    I believe Tracy's is like that. One of the reason's for so many additional tec's then say AK. Master Tracy went to the college of Karate and did not stop learning when he parted from AK.

    I am not being disrespectful of the AK or tooting the horn of Tracy's.

    I am just stating the truth and it is very hard for someone who has not gone to college and learned what is at the higher institution of learning to be able to understand what the professor is teaching (Hanshi or Master Ray).

    Or lets say, the Microsoft system of windows 2000 can read what the windows system 95 can read but can it be reversed. That is pretty simplistic?

    Does that make sense?

    Regards, Gary

    PS. I Spelled the word Kojo (Koja wrong), sorry about that, typo, late or what ever. It is Kojo, it is a family art handed down by the decendants of Chinese origin, they imigrated to Okinawa in 1393 along with the others who are called the thirty six families ( Patrick McCarthy, Bubishi). G
    Last edited by Gary A Brewer; 07-31-2005 at 01:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Kosho Ryu and China

    Fascinating

    History without the burdun of facts, records or any such things

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    Smile Re: Kosho Ryu and China

    Quote Originally Posted by The Kai
    Fascinating

    History without the burdun of facts, records or any such things
    Hi Kai,

    Would you like me to use the author of the information I am relating to you more than one time in a post?

    OK, so once again I will say "Patrick McCarthy" Bubishi, he translated it into
    English with the help of his wife and it is now available through Amazon.com.

    I will add also, I read some of the same information. "Mark Bishop" in his book
    Okinawan Karate.

    It is pretty much a fact of knowledge that the Chinese have had an ideogram based writing for thousands of years.

    Now If we take that as a fair observation...Put it to the same thought pattern regarding the borrowing of their writing by a country such as Japan (they borrowed it and changed it) and them using this writing for the last 1200 years.
    Do you think we can say they also borrowed their Martial arts?
    (as did the rest of the various countries I mentioned earlier.)

    I will be more diligent in my reference's if you want. Last but not least I will point out that you are not contributing, only sniping.

    Kai, why don't you answer the direct question put to you by Shawn???

    Regards, Gary

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    Default Re: Kosho Ryu and China

    Oh, I thought you were trying to connect the Mythical Kenpo Temple again.

    But yes the bubish is a excellent read, with nothing to do with Kenpo

    I PM's Shawn is that okay with you?

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    Smile Re: Kosho Ryu and China

    Quote Originally Posted by The Kai
    Oh, I thought you were trying to connect the Mythical Kenpo Temple again.

    But yes the bubish is a excellent read, with nothing to do with Kenpo

    I PM's Shawn is that okay with you?
    Hi Kai,

    I am glad you did a PM to Shawn, am greatly relieved. LOL

    We were in China, and if you are going to make a statement as above, regarding Kem/npo, (you might read a little more of the Bubishi and Kempo and Shorei and Shorin) maybe please take your own advise and give me some reference's.

    That way we will keep this on the same playing field.

    Regards, Gary

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    Default Re: Kosho Ryu and China

    Actually I probably have red the same material as yourself. However they must not have the same chapters

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    Smile Re: Kosho Ryu and China

    Quote Originally Posted by The Kai
    Actually I probably have red the same material as yourself. However they must not have the same chapters
    Hi Kai,

    The Bubishi that was written (translated) by Patrick McCarthy actually came out much later than the stuff you are referring to when you are talking about the information that Hanshi has in some of his books.

    I personally talked to Patrick McCarthy and in our conversation I asked him questions and talked about Mitose and Hanshi. He mentioned he runs up against the same misinformation that has plagued Hanshi and the propaganda machine that is out there to discredit him (Hanshi and Himself).
    In fact he gave an interview to Mark V Wiley and was discussing it in the interview (his plague of attacks by the old martial arts community).

    He also stated in his conversation to me, that Hanshi was a good historian or at least had someone who was giving him the right information.

    Now the Temple. The name "Kin Kai Zan Dion Kyoji" is that the one?

    As far as reading the same books and same chapters I guess if you are reading with a closed mind or an open one, might be the difference in the way you are interpretating what you are reading.

    The "Bible" . See what I mean regarding this one book for instance?

    I certainly would not read the Bubishi if I was an aspiring Kajukenbo person who wants to understand the origin of the Pinan Katas.

    Why? Because if I went back to the Master's who were telling me his side of the story I would probabley question them further. Then have to ask more questions, that might lead to my expungement.

    Now lets take your handle "The Kai" in English can be taken on face value if you are only aware of one answer. But without the Kanji or Chinese Character to accompany it you are going to have to explain, because it has many different meanings.

    Maybe that might help, so go purchase a Kanji book and then we can go from there. OK

    Regards, Gary

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    Default Re: Kosho Ryu and China

    Dude


    Man --it so real to you, it's fascinating to watch

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    Smile Re: Kosho Ryu and China

    Quote Originally Posted by The Kai
    Dude


    Man --it so real to you, it's fascinating to watch
    HI Kai,

    Reality is in the eye of the beholder. Also in the giver and receiver of pain delivered with precision and timing.

    The sweet science (boxing) is a perfect example.

    History is one thing and the practice of it another. Now one thing we both know and understand is that for all the other BS Hanshi is a great MA Dude.

    Now how about the Kanji I was refering to in your Handle (The Kai). Which radical? Come on Kai, no way are you going to skirt this one. LOL

    Regards, Gary

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