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Thread: Kenjutsu Correlations

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    Default Kenjutsu Correlations

    This is an excellent documentary about the Shinkage School of swordsmanship. The documentary was well done and sans politicking. One of the things that I was noticing is the correlations between the movements of the Kenshi and the movements you see of Kosho Ryu Kenshi. These seem to also hold a direct link to the way an aikidoka moves. Take a peek as it is only five minutes long.



    Regards,
    Walt

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    Default Re: Kenjutsu Correlations

    Good video. Combat principles will be the same. Some adjustments in technique like footwork will be different if you have a weapon or not.
    More Shugyo!

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    Default Re: Kenjutsu Correlations

    Quote Originally Posted by gakusei View Post
    Good video. Combat principles will be the same. Some adjustments in technique like footwork will be different if you have a weapon or not.
    Absolutely! I saw a few entering principles and evasions that I have seen a few times in my Kosho Training.

    Good stuff.
    Walt

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    Default Re: Kenjutsu Correlations

    I can't wait to see this. I can't get video on my work computer and I just haven't had the time to log on from home. The correlations of Kosho and Kenjutsu are implied in Kosho Shorei Densho.

    _Don Flatt

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    Default Re: Kenjutsu Correlations

    Finally got to see it. It was good. Although, I think this video's correlations to Kosho are clearer.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InlQtTMK5Ys

    Tell me what you think.

    _Don Flatt

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    Default Re: Kenjutsu Correlations

    Those are good videos. I watched them in entirety on youtube and they are alot of fun. The Kashima Katori Shinto Ryu will have a lot of similarities to MA's from Japan as it is one of their oldest.

    This simply illustrates one of the original points to fighting... If you're not cheating, you're not trying. Like the "good book" says; all warfare is deception. I think Kosho does this well in that it leads an opponent into following a target... while in reality the target is following them.

    Regards,
    Walt

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    Default Re: Kenjutsu Correlations

    Those who think it's all about punching, kicking, locking, and throwing rely on athletic ability to win fights. Much like Kosho, old battlefield arts rely on creating an illusion to defeat the enemy. The use of Kamae to create false centers to attack. Escaping arts are not so much about speed but rather timing and illusion: Timing - move at the right moment after the attacker's intent is made clear. Illusion - the opponent thinks your in one spot and you move without him realizing - he makes his strike and poof your gone depending on his attack you may even be behind him, essentially disapearing from his view.

    _Don Flatt

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    Default Re: Kenjutsu Correlations

    Excellent points Don. The modern battlefield has gone back to many of these tactics due to the fact that modern battle armor only goes so far.

    Regards,
    Walt

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    Default Re: Kenjutsu Correlations

    Quote Originally Posted by kroh View Post
    Excellent points Don. The modern battlefield has gone back to many of these tactics due to the fact that modern battle armor only goes so far.

    Regards,
    Walt
    Funny. Some people wonder why we study these ancient methods, especially if you study sword arts. After all isn't the sword an archaic weapon? Yes, it is but strategy is timeless and natural laws are universal.

    The Kanji for Kempo is taken from some interesting radicals:

    Ken - translates to Fist is made from the radicals for hand and scroll.
    Ho - translates to Law is made from the radicals for water, earth, and to flow.

    From this we can understand that not only does Kempo mean Fist Law or Fist Method on the surface level but a more indepth look shows that Kempo is the study (scroll in hand) of natural law (the flow of water on the earth).

    _Don Flatt

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    Default Re: Kenjutsu Correlations

    I enjoyed both the videos. I think the one showing Master Karodas footwork was excellent. We have several Sword Katas and compete often with them. Have been very successful with them.

    I am most Respectfully,
    sifuroy

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    Default Re: Kenjutsu Correlations

    Quote Originally Posted by sifuroy View Post
    I enjoyed both the videos. I think the one showing Master Karodas footwork was excellent. We have several Sword Katas and compete often with them. Have been very successful with them.

    I am most Respectfully,
    sifuroy

    How do the kata that you see Kuroda Sensei doing differ from the ones that you use for competition? I have been doing swordwork since the nineties and some of the competition stuff I see confuses me. Would you possibly have a you tube or other medium to show a sword competition kata and then break it down to see how they relate to "evasive footwork." Although many of the sword guys out there are very elitist and dismiss "tournament kata" as useless... I would like to take the opportunity to ask all about it. If you never ask the question you can't learn from the answer.

    Thank you sir,
    Regards,
    Walt

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    Default Re: Kenjutsu Correlations

    Quote Originally Posted by kroh View Post
    ." Although many of the sword guys out there are very elitist and dismiss "tournament kata" as useless...
    And how is that a bad thing? Please be sure to count me in as one of them

    But seriously, if you have to ask the question of how competition sword kata is different from traditional JSA, I don't believe you have the capacity to possibly correlate traditional sword work with anything else including "Kosho Ryu Kenshi," whatever that is.

    CL

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    Default Re: Kenjutsu Correlations

    Quote Originally Posted by Taisetsu View Post
    And how is that a bad thing? Please be sure to count me in as one of them

    But seriously, if you have to ask the question of how competition sword kata is different from traditional JSA, I don't believe you have the capacity to possibly correlate traditional sword work with anything else including "Kosho Ryu Kenshi," whatever that is.

    CL
    I am aware of how competition forms differs from the practical exercizes of the Japanese Sword Methods but I would like to keep the conversation going. It would be neat to hear from the "other side of the house."

    As for my capacity, I am very new to Kosho and the Japanese sword methods that I know are taught as part of other martial arts. I do not consider myself an expert but I do come on these forums to learn (not the methods themselves but definitely the insights of people like yourself that would help me study).

    Only way to learn from a forum is to ask questions.

    What were your thoughts on the video and how they relate to the footwork and tactics of the japanese empty handed fighting arts?

    Regards,
    Walt

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    Wink Re: Kenjutsu Correlations

    Quote Originally Posted by kroh View Post
    I am aware of how competition forms differs from the practical exercizes of the Japanese Sword Methods but I would like to keep the conversation going. It would be neat to hear from the "other side of the house."

    As for my capacity, I am very new to Kosho and the Japanese sword methods that I know are taught as part of other martial arts. I do not consider myself an expert but I do come on these forums to learn (not the methods themselves but definitely the insights of people like yourself that would help me study).

    Only way to learn from a forum is to ask questions.

    What were your thoughts on the video and how they relate to the footwork and tactics of the japanese empty handed fighting arts?

    Regards,
    Walt
    Hi Walt,

    Please don't take it personally, I knew what you meant. I assumed you were baiting the poor guy into more discourse. And this being a type of "Japanese" Kenpo sword forum, it was only a matter of time until someone took a swipe at those "elitist" sword guys. You know, the ones everyone else is trying to steal their techniques from... and make them better... cause it only makes sense according to their concepts and coolaid.

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    Default Re: Kenjutsu Correlations

    Quote Originally Posted by Taisetsu View Post
    And how is that a bad thing? Please be sure to count me in as one of them

    But seriously, if you have to ask the question of how competition sword kata is different from traditional JSA, I don't believe you have the capacity to possibly correlate traditional sword work with anything else including "Kosho Ryu Kenshi," whatever that is.

    CL
    Sensei Long,
    I do beleive that a number of "Kosho Ryu Kenshi" may be students of yours. That is of course if you are the Sensei Carl Long of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu - appologies if I have spelled the name incorrectly. Kosho Ryu is a Japanese philosophy that encompasses a number of arts- empty hand arts, cultural arts, healing arts, and weapon arts. A core of the philosophy is one of looking for similarities. We study the various arts to see similarities between them. As we understand one art better, we in turn understand them all better. We do have ancillary studies in JSA mostly using Muso Shinden Ryu Kata brought into the Ryu by Sensei Mike Brown - formerly of Rhode Island. A good number of Kosho Kenshi, wishing to further their understanding of JSA, pursue further studies with legitimate JSA teachers like yourself.

    Are there correlations between JSA and empty hand arts such as Jujutsu, Aikido, and Kosho? I think so, but I would also respect your opinion, sir.

    _Don Flatt

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    Default Re: Kenjutsu Correlations

    Quote Originally Posted by Kosho Gakkusei View Post
    Sensei Long,
    I do beleive that a number of "Kosho Ryu Kenshi" may be students of yours. That is of course if you are the Sensei Carl Long of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu - appologies if I have spelled the name incorrectly. Kosho Ryu is a Japanese philosophy that encompasses a number of arts- empty hand arts, cultural arts, healing arts, and weapon arts. A core of the philosophy is one of looking for similarities. We study the various arts to see similarities between them. As we understand one art better, we in turn understand them all better. We do have ancillary studies in JSA mostly using Muso Shinden Ryu Kata brought into the Ryu by Sensei Mike Brown - formerly of Rhode Island. A good number of Kosho Kenshi, wishing to further their understanding of JSA, pursue further studies with legitimate JSA teachers like yourself.

    Are there correlations between JSA and empty hand arts such as Jujutsu, Aikido, and Kosho? I think so, but I would also respect your opinion, sir.

    _Don Flatt
    Hi Don,

    Actually, I don't teach any "Kosho Ryu Kenshi," I only teach Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Kenshi. Some of them coincidentally study "Kosho Ryu" as well. There is a VERY big difference. Its this misunderstanding that just never seems to sink in. All the best! Its a big world.

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    Default Re: Kenjutsu Correlations

    Thank you, Carl.

    I stand corrected. That is a matter of perspective, being a student of Kosho - I saw it as Kosho people studying MJER. But your perspective as Sensei, I beleive is more accurate. Indeed your students are Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Kenshi some of which also study other arts including Kosho.

    Sensei, you still have not answered my question in regards to your opinion on correlations between JSA and Japanese empty hand arts.

    Respectfully,
    _Don Flatt

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    Default Re: Kenjutsu Correlations

    No offense taken sir. "S'all good." As I am an elitist at times myself, it was more a jab at myself to remind me that sometimes pearls can be found amidst regular oysters.

    However, I would love to hear your thoughts on the subject at hand and if you would enduldge me and would prefer...you could always send them via email...

    Best regards,
    Walt

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    Default Re: Kenjutsu Correlations

    Quote Originally Posted by Kosho Gakkusei View Post
    Thank you, Carl.

    I stand corrected. That is a matter of perspective, being a student of Kosho - I saw it as Kosho people studying MJER. But your perspective as Sensei, I beleive is more accurate. Indeed your students are Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Kenshi some of which also study other arts including Kosho.

    Sensei, you still have not answered my question in regards to your opinion on correlations between JSA and Japanese empty hand arts.

    Respectfully,
    _Don Flatt
    Mr. Flatt,

    My posting was not meant as a correction but rather as a clarification. I am familiar with Mr. Juchniks Kosho Ryu method of assimilation very well.

    Re: your question of JSA and Japanese Empty Hand arts...

    That's a very broad question. Japanese empty hand martial arts cover a very broad spectrum. Let me just say that the sword was never meant to be employed as a"Self Defense" weapon. Many modern Japanese empty hand systems were developed as such. So any "similarlity" after that point is moot. If the intention of the technique is diferent, the technique is different.

    Regarding the specific arts you asked about...

    I know the history of Jujutsu and Aikido. Jujutsu definitely has it's roots in japanese military warfare. Jujutsu was developed as an adjunct art for a warrior who would be 'inept' enough to be found in a battlefield conflict withoput his weapon. Jujutsu was primarily developed to KILL ones opponent before he KILLS you. The similarity, if you're looking for one, is that one of the combatants might have a sword. and it's not the jujutsu practitioner.

    Aikidos connection to sword is a bit more dubious. There has been plenty written about Morihei Ueshibas connection or lack thereof to any traditional sword work beyond a very basic level. You can easily find this information with a little research. As a practitioner of both Koryu and Gendai arts, I can tell you that there is very little similarity in the approach Aikido takes to it's weapons and that of Koryu arts. That is of course unless the practitioner has studied a koryu art and gone against the mainstream of the Aikido world and teaches it in a koryu fashion.

    Kosho Ryu...who knows...I'm certainly not going to be able to come up with a definitive history of it when nobody else can either. That is not a slam on Kosho, it's just a statement of fact. Take a look around the kenpo world and my reference to Kosho history stands. From what I've seen of it, Kosho Ryu looks like whatever the guy studied before he became a Kosho Ryu guy. Mr. Juchniks kempo to me looks like a Philipino/Tai Chi/Tae Kwon Do art, others look like a Cerio Kenpo, others look like Villari, still others like Mike Brown, look a little like the limited amout of Aikido he used to study. It's a smorgasboard of whatever comes to it, and whatever is added to it in order to make it look "similar," by applying KOSHO CONCEPTS to it. Nothing wrong with that unless someone tries to pass it off as something that it's not. So I don't really see how I can draw a correspondence to an art form that is not rooted in Japanese Sword work as far as anyone can prove.

    RE: the videos...

    The first one just looked "Odd" (not bad just "Odd") to me. Not quite being taught or demonstrated like any JSA I had ever been witness to. After researching this group a bit you will understand why.

    The second one by Kuroda is a fine example of Japanese swordsmanship. But not for the reasons being offered by the commentator. So I wouldn't draw any conclusions as to the correspondence of techniques to other arts unless you have actually studied with and understand what Mr Kuroda is actually doing. Not what he appears to be doing.

    Re: Studying the similaries....

    OK, this is where I have a REAL PROBLEM with others thoughts on the subject. Allow me to give an example...

    You walk into a store that advertizes that it sells motorcycles. But there is nothing like you want on display. You tell the salesman that you want to buy a specific kind of motorcycle in a specific color and he tells you that you shouldn't look at the differences between bikes, you should see the similarities. So he then takes you over to his product and asks you to sit on this one. You have to get on his product just like the one you requested. He reminds you of the similarity. Then he tells you that you can put another passenger on the back of his bike just like the one you requested but it won't be very confortable, just like the one you requested. He shows you that his product is the same color silver as the one you requested, another similarity. When you start to notice a difference in the two products, he brings you back to the fact that it's the similarities that you're looking for, not the differences. So you buy the product. And no one feels sorry for you when you arrive at home riding Trigger or the Lone Rangers Horse, Silver.

    You see, martial arts styles aren't based on similarities, they never have been. They are defined by their differences, PERIOD. And in my opinion, anyone who would have you believe otherwise is trying to sell you a product that looks like a Duck, walks like a Duck but somehow never Quaaks or tastes like a Duck. Perhaps it's just a picture of a Duck...or someones idea of a picture of a Duck.

    To be honest, I think that all of the arts are tremendous and have great value. My only objection is when they are being peddled off as something that they are not.
    Last edited by Taisetsu; 02-15-2007 at 08:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Kenjutsu Correlations

    Sensei Long,

    Thank you for a well thought out and informed opinion. I think coming from a historical perspective it would be foolish and difficult at best to disagree with your point of view. I think your point is important but I don't think being similar equates to being a replacement for. That is not the nature of the Kosho. Kosho encourages the discovery of similarities, which can only be found thru study. The idea is inclusion rather than replacement. A better way to put your analogy would be to go to the motorcycle dealership and the salesman not only gives the bike you wanted but lets you know about car models, styles of architecture, makes of computers, artists, music, women or men if that's your thing, literature, carreer choices, hobbies, etc. that you probably would enjoy based on that preference. This may explain your observations about Kosho as it is not really a style but rather a study.

    That being said, personally, I have been inspired to study JSA as a result of my studies of Kosho. Right now I have to study from a far. I practice the few Kata I know, read books, and watch videos. Perhaps one day I will have the opportunity to join the ranks of the Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu and study from you more in depth. I know from my perspective that I don't know enough about particulars of the Japanese Sword and what unique treasures the study of Koryu would have to offer but from what I can see there is much that is applicable to enhancing other areas of life- martial studies and otherwise. It's the similarities that makes the study of sword arts relevant otherwise you are wasting time studying an outmoded art with an archaic weapon with no application to life outside of a club.

    _Don Flatt

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