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Thread: Kempo Assault!

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    Default Kempo Assault!

    I am a very new beginner in the art of Kosho. I know a few of the kata and a few of the principles and can walk and chew gum at the same time.

    I recently re-enlisted into the military and have to take a short break from the dojo for a few and that got me to thinking. I am currently working on my MACP training to make sure I have that down but I was wondering about how I would be using kosho with it. I can see ( just like any grappling applications) where the main principles of kosho come into play but the main problem I am having is the mindset.

    The things I am interested in are:

    *How to apply some of the weapon applications of Kosho to the weapons I will be outfitted with (James Williams does a nice job of combining his Nami Ryu with Systema to form His System of Strategy Which Seems to work well).

    *How to use the body folding arts to control and arrest instead of hit and fade away.

    *Using Kosho Principles as they apply to the grappling techniques in Level one of MACP.

    I am sure there are other areas that I will investigate and have questions on but those are the big ones right now. The most important thing is getting my Kosho to work real world... that way after I use it I can come back and spew about how great everyone's advice was.

    Regards,
    Walt

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    Default Re: Kempo Assault!

    Quote Originally Posted by kroh View Post
    I am a very new beginner in the art of Kosho. I know a few of the kata and a few of the principles and can walk and chew gum at the same time.

    I recently re-enlisted into the military and have to take a short break from the dojo for a few and that got me to thinking. I am currently working on my MACP training to make sure I have that down but I was wondering about how I would be using kosho with it. I can see ( just like any grappling applications) where the main principles of kosho come into play but the main problem I am having is the mindset.

    The things I am interested in are:

    1. *How to apply some of the weapon applications of Kosho to the weapons I will be outfitted with (James Williams does a nice job of combining his Nami Ryu with Systema to form His System of Strategy Which Seems to work well).

    2. *How to use the body folding arts to control and arrest instead of hit and fade away.

    3. *Using Kosho Principles as they apply to the grappling techniques in Level one of MACP.

    I am sure there are other areas that I will investigate and have questions on but those are the big ones right now. The most important thing is getting my Kosho to work real world... that way after I use it I can come back and spew about how great everyone's advice was.

    Regards,
    Walt
    Good luck in the military, Walt!
    Excuse my ignorance, but what is MACP?

    As far as the application of the principles, the one thing i learned, do not adopt your opponents method of fighting. This was a real hard lesson for me to learn in the beginning. I would find myself going toe to toe instead of sticking to the principles.
    Its also more than just implementing a principle or 2.....it's all of them in action harmoniously that makes it work.

    I've watched a lot of Vladimir Vasiliev and a couple of my Kosho friends have trained with him in toronto. they said that systema and kosho are very similar in application.

    1. What kind of weapons will you be equipped with?

    2. Give me a scenario and how you would approach it. Then we can trade notes.

    3. I love grappling. what kind of stuff is used in level 1?

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    Default Re: Kempo Assault!

    What branch? One of our students was a Marine Combatives instructor a few years ago. He's posted here before, but it's been a while. Maybe I can talk him into checking out this thread or you could send him a PM. His forum "handle" was irongator.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Kempo Assault!

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcatbonz View Post
    Good luck in the military, Walt!
    Excuse my ignorance, but what is MACP?

    As far as the application of the principles, the one thing i learned, do not adopt your opponents method of fighting. This was a real hard lesson for me to learn in the beginning. I would find myself going toe to toe instead of sticking to the principles.
    Its also more than just implementing a principle or 2.....it's all of them in action harmoniously that makes it work.

    I've watched a lot of Vladimir Vasiliev and a couple of my Kosho friends have trained with him in toronto. they said that systema and kosho are very similar in application.

    1. What kind of weapons will you be equipped with?

    2. Give me a scenario and how you would approach it. Then we can trade notes.

    3. I love grappling. what kind of stuff is used in level 1?
    Thanks for the well wishing. I am prior service but my wife just joined too!

    As for MACP... It is the Modern Army Combatives Program and it is the revamped fight program for the US Army. Level 1 is a combination of BJJ and Sambo taught using flow drills like Kali or Old Kata. It was definately different and fun but unfortunately...Not like MMAP (Marine Corps Martial Arts Program).

    Weapons equiped for me as an MP will usually be some m16 variant (m4 if I'm lucky), Pistol, and a Big Whopping knife ( fan of four of five inchess for a fighting knife...what can I say...whopping to me aint much ;-)

    Typical scenarios used would either be arresting some one ( a lot of the folding/holding arts from kosho are self explanatory here) or building entry (Much like in the above System of Straegy clip.).

    Just basically looking for suggestions in how to use my Kosho powers for evil.... :-D

    Here are some xamples of stuff...

    Combatives Manual

    Combatives matches

    Intro to Army Combatives

    Regards,
    Walt

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    Kosho Gakkusei is offline
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    Default Re: Kempo Assault!

    With the exception of the weapons techniques most of what I saw in the manual appears to be derived from Brazilian Jujitsu and Boxing. BJJ was derived from Judo and Mitose said that Kosho Ryu Kempo is similar to Judo and to Boxing. Kosho principles will definitely apply to this type of training.

    Good Luck!

    _Don Flatt

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    Default Re: Kempo Assault!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kosho Gakkusei View Post
    With the exception of the weapons techniques most of what I saw in the manual appears to be derived from Brazilian Jujitsu and Boxing. BJJ was derived from Judo and Mitose said that Kosho Ryu Kempo is similar to Judo and to Boxing. Kosho principles will definitely apply to this type of training.

    Good Luck!

    _Don Flatt

    Good Call, Thanks Don...
    Regards,
    Walt

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    Default Re: Kempo Assault!

    Ahh... memories of Benning in the dog days of August!

    Black Flag?

    What Black Flag???

    That's a nice intro video to MAC by the way...

    My nephew-in-law is currently an E-5 in the Rangers... and he and I plan on doing some MAC training once he's done playing in the big sandbox...

    OOH! RAH!!!

    Andrew M. Goodwin - Student of the arts
    Middletown, DE

    Blue Belt in Kenpo (5/12)
    9th Kyu in Budo Taijutsu (5/12)
    2nd Brown in TSD (8/98)

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    Default Re: Kempo Assault!

    Quote Originally Posted by MSTCND View Post
    Ahh... memories of Benning in the dog days of August!

    Black Flag?

    What Black Flag???

    That's a nice intro video to MAC by the way...

    My nephew-in-law is currently an E-5 in the Rangers... and he and I plan on doing some MAC training once he's done playing in the big sandbox...

    OOH! RAH!!!
    Hey...Good luck to your nephew in the Box. I used to be in 3-75. Good times.

    Regards,
    Walt

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    Default Re: Kempo Assault!

    Quote Originally Posted by kroh View Post
    Thanks for the well wishing. I am prior service but my wife just joined too!

    As for MACP... It is the Modern Army Combatives Program and it is the revamped fight program for the US Army. Level 1 is a combination of BJJ and Sambo taught using flow drills like Kali or Old Kata. It was definately different and fun but unfortunately...Not like MMAP (Marine Corps Martial Arts Program).

    Weapons equiped for me as an MP will usually be some m16 variant (m4 if I'm lucky), Pistol, and a Big Whopping knife ( fan of four of five inchess for a fighting knife...what can I say...whopping to me aint much ;-)

    Typical scenarios used would either be arresting some one ( a lot of the folding/holding arts from kosho are self explanatory here) or building entry (Much like in the above System of Straegy clip.).

    Just basically looking for suggestions in how to use my Kosho powers for evil.... :-D

    Here are some xamples of stuff...

    Combatives Manual

    Combatives matches

    Intro to Army Combatives

    Regards,
    Walt
    I've been thinking about my reply, Walt, and this is what I've come up with.
    I saw a special on A&E or some such channel that was talking about how the rangers had adopted BJJ as their new "fighting style". If I remember correctly, I believe they even talked to Rorion Gracie.
    Here is my problem with that decision. BJJ is first and foremost a sport based on Judo......this is no secret.
    Advanced hand to hand combatives should work on avoiding and blocking any kind of takedown and should forget about trying to fight on the ground.......its hard enough fighting on the ground, let alone doing it covered in gear.

    I watched the James Williams clip, and I must say, when i see that, I see the same principles that we work on in Kosho.......Tactical positioning combined with offensive striking.
    I think a mistake people make when they think of Kosho is that it is all defense.
    My only experience with restraining or moving people was as a bouncer.
    This helped me to refine my approach and positioning tactics.
    I never made myself square to someone......only to the side, behind, or with my body 90 degrees to theirs.
    Just taking that position was my "first" move. I would be close enough to jam movement and maintain control if needed, but far enough away to move freely in any direction.

    Get a training partner and start out approaching them from various angles.
    Have them try and get your front, meaning squaring their shoulders to yours so that you're eye to eye, keep your position and direct their movement.

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    Default Re: Kempo Assault!

    Hey Shawn...

    AS for the MACP program being purely BJJ, that is not the entirety of the process. MACP is designed with sambo and BJJ for the first level because grappling is easier to learn than learning the timing, rythm, and power of a precussive style. And God knows that the evasive nature of arts like Systema, Aikido, and Kosho take forever to learn. The basic level of Combatives (MACP) can be taught to troops in 15 hours. With practice it becomes rather effective. They tell you while going in to take some one down that you could take shots comming in.

    Level 2 and 3 are more progressive teaching precussion takedowns (throwing) as well as weaponry. The thing to understand about MACP is that it is very rudimentary and that it is meant to get you out of a situation untill

    A. You get your weapon or some one elses back online
    B. You have friends show up to give you a hand in putting down the SOB.

    But as it is very basic I am currently supplimenting my training and I want to make sure that the striking, folding, and escaping arts that I am learning in Kosho are applied with the mindset that ...if I have to escape... it is only a matter of feet so that I may regain control.

    I am not a big fan of the descision to teach it exactly how they teach it (all grappling with no striking ability trained in the beginning) but the methods they use are rock solid and having your soldiers wrestle around for an hour is great excersize as well as being fanastic for teaching that won't quit attitude.

    Always a pleasure, Sir.
    Regards,
    Walt

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    Kosho Gakkusei is offline
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    Default Re: Kempo Assault!

    BJJ done by a skilled practicioner who utilizes skill, angles, and leverage rather than brute strength is a beautiful art and you will find many similarities between BJJ and Kosho. Unfortunately, most practice from an ego base but this is also the case for most Martial Artists regardless of their chosen art. BJJ tends to also be prejudiced against stand up fighting. To maintain a Kosho mindset undertaking this type of training you will need to look for similarities and try to stay aware of when you are boxed in by your study and bust out of the box.

    _Don Flatt

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    Default Re: Kempo Assault!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kosho Gakkusei
    To maintain a Kosho mindset undertaking this type of training you will need to look for similarities and try to stay aware of when you are boxed in by your study and bust out of the box.

    _Don Flatt
    Nicely put Don. BJJ is a tight martial art when practiced without the "ring mind set" that most often accompanies it.

    Regards,
    Walt

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    Default Re: Kempo Assault!

    Quote Originally Posted by kroh View Post
    Hey Shawn...

    AS for the MACP program being purely BJJ, that is not the entirety of the process.
    1.MACP is designed with sambo and BJJ for the first level because grappling is easier to learn than learning the timing, rythm, and power of a precussive style.
    2.And God knows that the evasive nature of arts like Systema, Aikido, and Kosho take forever to learn.
    3.The basic level of Combatives (MACP) can be taught to troops in 15 hours. With practice it becomes rather effective. They tell you while going in to take some one down that you could take shots comming in.

    4.Level 2 and 3 are more progressive teaching precussion takedowns (throwing) as well as weaponry. The thing to understand about MACP is that it is very rudimentary and that it is meant to get you out of a situation untill

    A. You get your weapon or some one elses back online
    B. You have friends show up to give you a hand in putting down the SOB.

    5.But as it is very basic I am currently supplimenting my training and I want to make sure that the striking, folding, and escaping arts that I am learning in Kosho are applied with the mindset that ...if I have to escape... it is only a matter of feet so that I may regain control.

    I am not a big fan of the descision to teach it exactly how they teach it (all grappling with no striking ability trained in the beginning) but the methods they use are rock solid and having your soldiers wrestle around for an hour is great excersize as well as being fanastic for teaching that won't quit attitude.

    Always a pleasure, Sir.
    Regards,
    Walt
    Hi Walt,

    1. I realise from a technical standpoint, soldiers are taught things in a manner that allows for quick adoption and daily usage. The technical nature of BJJ fits right in with this.
    2. This is very true.......I think one of the reasons is, the movement is not taught from a technical standpoint A>B>C>D, but rather a feel standpoint. I guess this is perhaps why Systema was for special forces guys that could spend more time working on their H2H skills.
    The very nature of arts like kosho, aikijutsu, systema, is to not be there when the attack arrives, or at the very least, redirect the attack.
    The only way to learn how is just doing it all of the time. eventually you just start moving that way, but there are certain rules (principles) that you need to follow to make it work.
    3. You said you were going to be MP right? For that job I would think you need a little extra something or edge to go beyond what the troops get.

    4-5. This is where the Kosho training can really come in.
    Try to think of the "escape" in simple terms of tactical repositioning. Move with purpose, if you are restraining someone and they move to strike, put yourself in the position that causes a fold directed by their movement .
    Jmaes Williams had some awesome examples in that SoS clip. His weapon made for a great tool to fold people up.

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    Default Re: Kempo Assault!

    Try to think of the "escape" in simple terms of tactical repositioning.
    I really like the way that you put that. This leaves more to interpretation rather than a word of finality like escape. AS I already have a good grasp of the bascis of comabtives, I can spend more time practicing the elusive nature of Kosho.

    Great response, Shawn, Always my pleasure.

    Regards,
    Walt

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    Default Re: Kempo Assault!

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcatbonz View Post
    Try to think of the "escape" in simple terms of tactical repositioning.
    What a great way to describe what Kosho Escaping Arts are!!!
    Alot of people I talk to don't get it when I talk about it. Non-Martial Artists think your talking about Houdini or getting out of Prison. And many Martial Artists think your talking about breaking grabs, holds and locks. I've been using the terms evasion but that doesn't give the impression of the potential for counters, locks, and throws that Kosho Escaping Arts provide.

    _Don Flatt

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    Default Re: Kempo Assault!

    Yeah,

    Shawn hit the nail (counter rotational of course) on the head with that one. I would like to think that using Kosho this way would make it very valuable to my carreer (once the Army sees fit in sending me to school...Stupid Army).

    Regards,
    Walt

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    Default Re: Kempo Assault!

    escaping is the cornerstone of kosho, that's my opinion anyway.
    Hanshi has the definitive answer on that one.
    I would say 90% of what we do is based on the ability to escape.
    once i have moved, it's pretty easy to figure out where the guy trying to attack me is going (trying to kick my butt).
    Knowing that makes kuzushi easier, which makes throwing and locking easier.
    the best way to develop the skill is to drill, drill, drill.

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    Kosho is offline
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    Default Re: Kempo Assault!

    escaping is the cornerstone of kosho, that's my opinion anyway.
    Hanshi has the definitive answer on that one.
    I would say 90% of what we do is based on the ability to escape.
    once i have moved, it's pretty easy to figure out where the guy trying to attack me is going (trying to kick my butt).
    Knowing that makes kuzushi easier, which makes throwing and locking easier.
    the best way to develop the skill is to drill, drill, drill.

    __________________
    shawn

    I agree shawn. i also like that when i touch and have little contact with my attacker i can feel how he or she is going to move and by shifting there weight you control there movement and you place them where you want them to be. for your counter or escape. I have deshi 2 on the 27,28,29 of jan with hanshi looking forward to this.
    Kosho

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    Default Re: Kempo Assault!

    I'm going too. Can't wait. See you there, Steve.

    _Don Flatt

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    Default Re: Kempo Assault!

    How often do you get to use the manuevers that you're practicing with a resisting partner (ie. some one trying to take your head off?)? One of the things I have been finding is that a lot of the kosho subtlties are taking me a long time to train and that I am either having to revert to my jkd or kali training to get the job done with a resisting opponent. I see where the Kosho is supposed to be taking me but I am just not there yet.


    Regards,
    Walt

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