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Thread: Offense Or Defense?

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    Default Re: Offense Or Defense?

    My statements were not based on a study of law or a study of the current statistical data compiled from one agency or another. As the statistics and studies are usually flawed by the use of rushed collection and faulty reporting of incidents, a better indicator of the crime and punishment ratio in one's area is better guaged by talking to the LEO's one trains with or knows. I would like the law makers in my country (USA, what people do in their own countries is their busines. We can learn from them but we are not them.) to actually be shown more than numbers. Let them be taken to the streets to see what things are really like. I would like them to have people more accoutable for their actions as the laws in the United States often time are not strict enough.

    My statements about the military were not to say that all soldiers come back with TSD or that they commit crimes becuse of it. I am a soldier and I have been through enough to where I realize that human beings are evil rotten thugs at heart with no true respect for anyone. We might control those urges most of the time but they are there regardless. I have never commited a serious crime and I hope that I never will. My statements were merely to point out that people who have "never been" or "don't know" or "never experienced" tote statistics about like a badge to be right.

    My above statements and the statements in my previous post were merely my opinion as well as what I tell my representives when I write to them about one law or another. I may be overbearing and reactive at times, but I stay involved with my community, vote, and make sure the law makers who represent me know where I stand (there is one senator in my state who is probably sick of my correspondance). In the area I live in, it is better that you throw the first punch if you can't reasonably remove yourself from a bad situation. However, if one is smart, then you can avoid those situations altogether.

    [quote]What actually creates a meaningful amount of safety is personal discretion combined with socially implemented measures./[quote]

    I totally agree but would like to see it come to where I live.

    Regards,
    Walt

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    Default Re: Offense Or Defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcatbonz
    firstly, you have to use that gray thing between your ears.
    secondly, if you're attacking anyone you like because of a perceived threat, you have a problem with restraint and perception.

    I think most rational individuals understand what it feels like to be threatened.
    this isnt walking down the street, looking across the road, seeing someone that looks a little suspicious and then walking across the street and attacking them.......this is the kind of person you're trying to defend yourself against.

    I have a hard time understanding where you are coming from because it really sounds like a victims outlook.
    A victims outlook? What is that?

    Gray matter.. yes.. and mankind has such a successfull history in using it don't they? (incase you missed it.. that was saracasm)

    Here is what troubles me in the previous posts. There is an essence of offence, striking first, pre-emptive attack is the best way to defend yourself.

    Personally.. that reminds me of the Cobra-kai's "Strike first, Strike hard, No Mercy SIR!"

    How sad is it that I remember that line?

    I have a problem with any mindset that says that one exreem is preferable to anyother, the idea teaching a system of defence based on strking first without defining situational limitations, a system that supposidly is based on balance but then focuses on the hard, offencive, or yang. If it is a "Victims outlook" to wish to talk down a situation rather than take someone out just cause they may be in my face saying some unplesent words... then so be it. But woe to anyone who chooses to not be talked down.

    Sorry.. like Celtic.. I too have my peves...
    "Do you have any bactine? Some of this blood is mine."

    "Dear Die-ary, today I stuffed some dolls full of dead rats I put in the blender. I'm wondering if, maybe, there really is something wrong with me."

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    Default Re: Offense Or Defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny
    A victims outlook? What is that?

    Gray matter.. yes.. and mankind has such a successfull history in using it don't they? (incase you missed it.. that was saracasm)

    Here is what troubles me in the previous posts. There is an essence of offence, striking first, pre-emptive attack is the best way to defend yourself.

    Personally.. that reminds me of the Cobra-kai's "Strike first, Strike hard, No Mercy SIR!"

    How sad is it that I remember that line?

    I have a problem with any mindset that says that one exreem is preferable to anyother, the idea teaching a system of defence based on strking first without defining situational limitations, a system that supposidly is based on balance but then focuses on the hard, offencive, or yang. If it is a "Victims outlook" to wish to talk down a situation rather than take someone out just cause they may be in my face saying some unplesent words... then so be it. But woe to anyone who chooses to not be talked down.

    Sorry.. like Celtic.. I too have my peves...
    I think there's a conceptual problem here.

    The idea of "no first attack" is discussed here nicely:

    http://www.geoffthompson.com/guest_w...ethy_page3.htm

    What Funakoshi meant is not an actual attack, but that you should always be the one to form the intention to inflict harm last. To form the intention and attack before the other person commits to doing you harm is a skill encompassed within sen (timing methods) and various methods for sensing intentions. Form this point of view, attacking in response to the honest intention to harm you is the same as attacking in response to the act itself.

    Within that context it is important to exercise proprtional methods as best as you are able *and* to make sure that these methods deescalate the situation.

    In many cases this means letting go of some common scenarios for conflict. One thing I find in talking to many martial artists is that they have relatively arbitrary standards about when to act, limited to any perceived insult to personal space or autonomy. To put it another way: They want to stay and win the fight with the dude outside the bar, but they won't help people who are actually being beaten up by said guy. Instead you must be willing to accept insults and even trivial harm for the larger goal of self-protection, community protection and deescalation.

    The other aspect of this is the ability to view intervention boradly. This is sometimes a problem depending on the limitations of your curriculum. If a system only encompasses physical self-protection you will have to do the work to extend the principles to nonphysical conflicts. The other aspect is one of competence. The training methods in many branches of kenpo (including my own) begin with methods of *maximum* response. Striking (including torquing energy applies to joints) is about as aggressive as you can get. More nuanced methods often come later. But the fact is that many conflicts can be stopped just by changing the way your voice sounds or assuming an appropriate posture, but this sort of thing is just not as reliable.

    But in general, acting in response to sincere intention to harm is equivalent to acting in response to an overt attack.

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    Default Re: Offense Or Defense?

    How sad is it that I remember that line?
    There are a few of us here who share your pain.

    AS for the offensive nature of some of the posts, I am all in favor for offense as long as you cannot reasonably extract yourself from the bad situation that called for it. And of course, using gray matter should be a matter of training. Some of the training we do should include a course on the law of the land as well as in discipline of action. We SHOULD be responsible for our actions but if there is no reasonable way out of the tough spot, you might as well throw the dice and try to make an avenue of escape. If some one is trying to throw a punch...use your head and deal with it. That is what we train for. If they are trying to kill you, don't try and ballance reasonable force with what might happen IF you make it. Too much thinking and not enough action is bad for business. Deal with it...that is what we train for.

    My personal opinion is to be offensive and bull out of the tough spot so that one can create an avenue of escape. That is when you call the police into things (as we lowly mortals don't get paid to put people in their place).

    After you get out and are in a reasonable position of safety, then you can worry about all the niceties of society. As tempers flair it is important to stay calm even though you know life as you know it is about to take a twirl down the drain. Train for this as stress and adrenal dump are a huge part of a fight. Jim Wagner, Hoch Hochheim and others are making some inovative training in this area and you can learn a lot by reading up on some of their stuff.

    Regards,
    Walt

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    Default Re: Offense Or Defense?

    great link and explains far better than I have in my view of the pre-emptive strike.
    "Do you have any bactine? Some of this blood is mine."

    "Dear Die-ary, today I stuffed some dolls full of dead rats I put in the blender. I'm wondering if, maybe, there really is something wrong with me."

    -JTHM

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    Default Re: Offense Or Defense?

    The offensive mindset is much more than a pre-emptive strike, something that I was intimating in my first post.
    Thinking and being offensive requires you to look at your training in a different way and to study arts that are a bit deeper than just the physical movements of self defense.
    Things like debana-waza, posturing to jam your opponents movements, NLP; there are plenty of things one can do to be preparatory and act offensively without throwing the first punch.

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    Default Re: Offense Or Defense?

    NLP as a offensive preparation? I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that before.

    Care to elaborate? You have me very intrigued!

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    Default Re: Offense Or Defense?

    Help the newbie out.... NLP?

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Offense Or Defense?

    NLP = Neuro-Linguistic Programming.

    As far as what it is....there are a ton of definitions.

    Some call it an exaggerated form of hypnosis, others call it a form of pop psychology.

    It's basically an attempt to create a science of persuasion...specifically, to use words to influence actions. There are some corporate sales coaches that teach NLP in sales training. There are also a bunch of books that can teach NLP for things like picking up a mate, or improving oneself.

    As far as whether it works...some folks say it does, when taught and done properly...but the challenge is "properly". NLP gets to be a bit squishy and...much like anything that can't be "proven", there are a bunch of hacks out there that don't know what they are talking about, claiming to teach it.

    Strange correlation to MA

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    Default Re: Offense Or Defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by lady_kaur
    NLP = Neuro-Linguistic Programming.

    As far as what it is....there are a ton of definitions.

    Some call it an exaggerated form of hypnosis, others call it a form of pop psychology.

    It's basically an attempt to create a science of persuasion...specifically, to use words to influence actions. There are some corporate sales coaches that teach NLP in sales training. There are also a bunch of books that can teach NLP for things like picking up a mate, or improving oneself.

    As far as whether it works...some folks say it does, when taught and done properly...but the challenge is "properly". NLP gets to be a bit squishy and...much like anything that can't be "proven", there are a bunch of hacks out there that don't know what they are talking about, claiming to teach it.

    Strange correlation to MA

    social engineering.

    basically?
    "Do you have any bactine? Some of this blood is mine."

    "Dear Die-ary, today I stuffed some dolls full of dead rats I put in the blender. I'm wondering if, maybe, there really is something wrong with me."

    -JTHM

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    Default Re: Offense Or Defense?

    So if some one walks up to me and asks to pass by and I draw my side-arm and say, "No, leave now, " does that qualify as NLP?

    Regards,
    Walt

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    Default Re: Offense Or Defense?

    NLP is interesting to say the least.
    I wouldnt call it exact science......but I would argue if any science is exact.
    The best thing to do is read about what it is and what it does, see if it rings any bells.
    It's just another tool.

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    Default Re: Offense Or Defense?

    I personally have never been knocked out although I Have seen stars and bled a bit.
    I feel better walking away from a fight if I was not the first person to throw the punch but thats just me,That may change if I am ever knocked out with a single punch but til then I will let let my opponent throw the first strike.What kind of martial artist would I be If I cannot deal with an initial attack and be able to counter.
    Just another Lifelong student Walking the Endless journey of Kenpo.(and Loving it)

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    Default Re: Offense Or Defense?

    There's a simple way to state the mindset of these offense oriented people:
    "Don't bother me and I won't bother you."
    LOL.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Offense Or Defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Moore
    I personally have never been knocked out although I Have seen stars and bled a bit.
    I feel better walking away from a fight if I was not the first person to throw the punch but thats just me,That may change if I am ever knocked out with a single punch but til then I will let let my opponent throw the first strike.What kind of martial artist would I be If I cannot deal with an initial attack and be able to counter.
    maybe a dead one?

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    Default Re: Offense Or Defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    There's a simple way to state the mindset of these offense oriented people:
    "Don't bother me and I won't bother you."
    LOL.
    Expertly put!

    Regards,
    Walt

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    Default Re: Offense Or Defense?

    I have been able to talk, conive,or intimidate my way out of every fight save for one.... i let him make the first move... while still trying to talk him down... I appologized to him afterwards for hurting him... but I did remind thim that he was warned.
    "Do you have any bactine? Some of this blood is mine."

    "Dear Die-ary, today I stuffed some dolls full of dead rats I put in the blender. I'm wondering if, maybe, there really is something wrong with me."

    -JTHM

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    Default Re: Offense Or Defense?

    "It's often a man's mouth broke his nose." -Old Irish saying..
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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