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Thread: Joint Locks

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    Default Joint Locks

    I think one of my favourite things to practice are the various joint locks.
    When I first started training they were the most difficult thing to execute, so it sort of became my personal mission to learn to apply them as effortlessly and to any conceivable attack.
    I have since learned that this aspect of martial arts is just another lifelong study......you always uncover new angles and learn to apply them just so.
    Sankyo is the one that I had the most difficulty learning how to apply but has since become my favourite because I find it so versatile.

    What are your favourite types of locks?

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    Mike Moore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Joint Locks

    I like Chin Na plus i have a friend who is a 5th degree black and knows them all.
    I have him teach me them at work in between sparring in our uniforms boots and all,kinda funny to see us walk out of the prison with boot marks all over us.
    Just another Lifelong student Walking the Endless journey of Kenpo.(and Loving it)

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    Default Re: Joint Locks

    There' not a lot of margin for error when applying a joint lock. You have to be "on your game" or they will not be effective. It's a good thing you practice them a lot.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Joint Locks

    I am not a big fan of locking the joint unless it is for a specific purpose. Locking the joint for the sake of holding uke in place seems to be ok but in a real altercation I would want to remove myself from the situtation as fast as possible and freezing the joint requires me to hold on (not able to run with associated thug attached).

    I like locking joints that lead to either breaking or temporary disruption to the service of a limb (such as over exertion or hyperextension). Should I attack some one with a straight punch to the jaw and the attack is interupted, I would want to attack on an open line to disrupt the chump's ballance so i could follow the blocking limb into a locked position, freezing his stance, and allowing me to damage him enough to knock his can to the deck. In Kosho they often refer to this as a skeletal freeze and can be gotten into in a variety of positions and methods.

    The lock I fall into the most would be the arm bar where I have uke's wrist in one hand and either my opposite forearm or armpit (body weight) on the uke elbow. From this position I try to off balance them into changing levels and tryng to recover (uch as sending them to te ground and them wanting to stand up) or to move forward and turn (so i can attack along an incomming line).

    Cool thread,
    Regards,
    Walt

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    Kempojujutsu is offline
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    Default Re: Joint Locks

    Joint locks are a great tool if used right. Just like kicks are great, they shouldn't be used all of the time. With joint locks it helps to get the opponent off balance either standing on his tippy toes or dropping him to his knees. Joint locks must be used with strikes to help set them up. One must know (feel) for the locks and know when to move to something different if it's not working. Locks work great if a guy grabs you, it's harder to get them from a punching or kicking situation, but it can be done.

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    Default Re: Joint Locks

    They give you another level of response. Yes, eventually you have to let go. But, they give you time to talk to the person about the error of their ways.
    More Shugyo!

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    execkenpo is offline
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    Default Re: Joint Locks

    Quote Originally Posted by gakusei View Post
    They give you another level of response. Yes, eventually you have to let go. But, they give you time to talk to the person about the error of their ways.
    I agree with much of what has been said by the others, but I especially like your approach here. I think a joint lock can be used in situations that 'aren't critical' to de-escalate the conflict. Think about your drunk uncle Joe at the family wedding...you really don't want to kenpo his a** because he acted like one...a joint lock can be useful here. How about on the school yard? Kids get into trouble occassionaly. Here we have a zero tolerance policy toward violentce, sometimes to the extreme. A simple joint lock can be used in a school yard scuffle without doing damage, OR leaving MARKS

    Personally I like locks and have been experimenting with them quite a bit

    Just my .02

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    execkenpo is offline
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    Default Re: Joint Locks

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Dear Kenpo brothers and sisters:

    Personally I like joint locks a lot! There is an important thing to remember about them, they rely for the most part on pain compliance.

    I had a brother who I used to train with become a state trooper who told me about several wrists that he had broken on perps who for whatever reason were immune to pain. Crack, meth maybe?

    They are all items for the MA toolbox but are not the "be all, end all" techniques that some might think.

    Nelson
    What makes kenpo great is that we have an answer for our opponents reactions in combat. If one technique doesn't work or he counters, we have the tools to deal with it and flow/graft into another option. I think with joint locks they can be used as an initial deterrant to further violence, but if you aren't successful, your kenpo skills are there. I would not suggest using joint locks as your sole defencive mechanism (except for on drunk uncle Bob), but they are definatley something to have in your toolbox. I wonder too, from a legal stadnpoint, if you attempted to use a less agressive form of dfence and were forced into using kenp as it is done best, would that work to you radvantage, legally speaking?

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    Default Re: Joint Locks

    I would like to have had more training in joint locks. We touched on them in some techniques, but for the most part. What I learned of them was through my own research.

    1stJohn1:9

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    Default Re: Joint Locks

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Dear Kenpo brothers and sisters:

    I'd like to recommend a couple of great books on Jiu Jitsu that are packed with joint locks.

    "The Complete Kano Jiu Jitsu" by Hancock and Hitashi
    "Jiu Jitsu Complete" by Kiyose Nakae

    My favorite joint locks are for the most common hand grabs. I also like other types of Jiu Jitsu "tricks" that use common objects like pen and pencils to control aggressive opponents without KO'ing them or causing great bodily injury.

    Nelson
    Wally Jays book is also a great resource. His son Leon has produced a DVD which is pretty good. He goes over the techniques numerouse times and in slow motion. I have it and I like it.

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    Default Re: Joint Locks

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Dear Kenpo brothers and sisters:

    Personally I like joint locks a lot! There is an important thing to remember about them, they rely for the most part on pain compliance.

    I had a brother who I used to train with become a state trooper who told me about several wrists that he had broken on perps who for whatever reason were immune to pain. Crack, meth maybe?

    They are all items for the MA toolbox but are not the "be all, end all" techniques that some might think.

    Nelson
    This is kind of an example of having a tool, but not knowing when it is useful.
    If your going to be using locks, you have to train with great regularity in order to understand when the lock is in a useful range.
    You have to also remember that not all locks operate by simply causing pain......some operate by controlling the body structure, so while not entirely comfortable, they seem to have this odd way of preventing you from moving; this is the kind of lock that is useful for someone that is drunk or on drugs.

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    Kosho Gakkusei is offline
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    Default Re: Joint Locks

    I have to agree with Shawn. If you think that joint locks are just for pain compliance then your understanding of joint locks is limited. Pain compliance is only useful for those who feel pain and care whether or not they get injured. For example, in UFC they tap because they don't want a broken arm.

    Outside of mere pain compliance, Joint locks are useful for; 1. Buying some time for you to talk to the aggressor. 2. Offsetting the attackers body to set up a throw. 3. Positioning the attacker so you not only lock up one joint but his entire skeletal structure so he is unable to shift his weight and therefore limit if not eliminate his ability to move.

    _Don Flatt

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    Default Re: Joint Locks

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcatbonz View Post
    This is kind of an example of having a tool, but not knowing when it is useful.
    If your going to be using locks, you have to train with great regularity in order to understand when the lock is in a useful range.
    You have to also remember that not all locks operate by simply causing pain......some operate by controlling the body structure, so while not entirely comfortable, they seem to have this odd way of preventing you from moving; this is the kind of lock that is useful for someone that is drunk or on drugs.
    Ain't that the truth!!!! When striking you can get away with slightly missing a target and still get lucky enough to cause damage, but joint locks require more finesse and hands-on regular training in order for one to truely understand them and how they work. IMHO =-)
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Kosho Gakkusei is offline
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    Default Re: Joint Locks

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    Ain't that the truth!!!! When striking you can get away with slightly missing a target and still get lucky enough to cause damage, but joint locks require more finesse and hands-on regular training in order for one to truely understand them and how they work. IMHO =-)
    Here, here. Experimenting is key. Hanshi Bruce Juchnik is fond of saying, "Recess is the most important part of school. Go play."

    _Don Flatt

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    Default Re: Joint Locks

    Quote Originally Posted by Kosho Gakkusei View Post
    Here, here. Experimenting is key. Hanshi Bruce Juchnik is fond of saying, "Recess is the most important part of school. Go play."

    _Don Flatt
    I like play time.

    At the IKCA seminar in Vegas this past summer, they invited Joe Lansdale of Shen Chuan fame to hold a class. I thought I'd do fine having a jiu-jitsu background but boy did I get a wake up call when it came to joint locks, manipulation, and controlling body structure. In the first few minutes of the class this rather demure female had me on the ground tapping furiously and begging her to let me go!!! ROFL. As Professor Lansdale likes to say, "It hurts cause it works."
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Joint Locks

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcatbonz View Post
    What are your favourite types of locks?
    Personally, I prefer Kotegaeshi, Shihon, & Kata Gatamae.

    Kotegash provides a good quick throw useful for escaping while causing little harm to the attacker.

    Shihon opens the door for both gentle & devastating throws. One throw when used in conjunction with an Osoto Gari could be deadly. Besides if applied standing shoulder to shoulder facing the opposite direction - very painful and extremely hard if not impossible to get out of.

    Kata Gatamae is good for subduing the opponent and less painful/destuctive than most locks. If you do want to be destructive the opponnent is in position for a knee to the face.

    _Don Flatt

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