Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 24

Thread: Throwing Arts - Connection-Disconnection Pt.2

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Cobourg ON
    Posts
    1,021
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 13 Times in 11 Posts

    Default Throwing Arts - Connection-Disconnection Pt.2

    What is more fun than taking an opponent and hurling them towards the ground while twisting their limbs into painful positions?
    I can think of a few things......but in martial arts, throwing and locking are my favourites.

    I was always fascinated by the way Steven Seagal would lock up the bad guys and toss them effortlessly through windows, tables, and other hard objects...... it was graceful and nasty all at the same time.

    How glad I was, that during my first kempo class, my new instructor tossed me all around the dojo like a wet noodle. It was quite an experience. I was going to learn how to throw and lock!

    After a few classes (and acquiring some bumps and bruises) I started to notice something; the throwing in my kempo class wasn't like the stuff I was seeing in Steven Seagal's movie's, it was more........brutal.

    That isn't to say it wasn't graceful........it was more unpredictable.
    We were shown the difference between the way aikidoka throw and the way kenshi throw. In Aikido, a person is taught to enter the movement of their attacker and blend (the whole aiki 合気
    thing), and throw them effortlessly across the floor (in it's most basic form). In my studies of Kempo, aiki plays a big role as well.........but instead of throwing someone across the room, we would throw them into an uncomfortable heap right in front of us. A friend of mine that studies Aikido always remarked that it was hard to fall because he didnt know where or how he was going to land. You are taught the classical locks and throws, but they are used somewhat differently.

    Kempo, as I was told, always had locking and throwing and it was taught to us using the same principles employed for striking.

    "How the heck does that work?", you ask.

    Connection and disconnection. One of the same principles used when striking your opponent.
    The difference lies in when; and the length of time you stay connected with your opponent.

    In it's simplest form, the best time to strike or throw your opponent is when they are in a weightless state, in(yin) seeking yo(yang), or disconnection seeking connection. This can happen during almost any kind of movement.

    If an opponent is striking at me with a right hand punch (straight, reverse, hook, jab, etc.), I decide i want him to fall over his own heels by letting him perform a secondary movement. While not an overly damaging move, it puts my opponent in a position with no easy means of egress right at my feet; giving me the option of locking and controlling or escape.
    So how do we get there?

    (DISCLAIMER: Remember, in Kosho Ryu, there are no set techniques......only application of principle. There is no right or wrong as long as your application is correct. This is not a technique contained in a syllabus, it's just something I'm coming up with to demostrate movement.)

    My opponent steps in with a right punch to my face; As I step to angle 3, i use my left arm as a soft,circular, horizontal parry drawing him down towards to the floor gently and allowing him to weight himself (this could end right here if he decides not pursue me, but let's hope for the sake of demonstration he decides to punch or grab me like a good uke!).

    At angle 3 I maintain a slight contact with his arm, as soon as he moves, i will feel it and be able to respond. In this position, he will have to move across his own centre (drawing his right arm back) in order to reach me to grab or strike with his left.

    Yay! He wants to continue his assault by punching me in the face with the big left.

    As he starts his movement to punch my face, I start moving back to where i started (principle: move twice, go back to where you were last).
    This is where i could choose to lay a big strike to his chin, or throw him.

    As his right arm pulls back for the rotation of the left, I drop my left elbow, bringing my hand up into a pseudo reverse middle block (ura chudan uke). I shoot my right hand out, but instead of striking his chin, i place my hand in front and below it. As his rotation continues, my left arm parries his left punch; as his chin makes contact with my right forearm, I am in a solid Sanchin like posture. As his punch continues, his head remains stationary against my arm, folding his upper body over his heels which are checked by my feet. Right before the zenith of his punch, i drop my weight, folding him over.

    In essence, this throw works the way it does by connecting obstacles to parts of my opponents body that do not allow him to recover naturally. Imagine walking down the street talking to a friend beside you, as you face front, you stub your toe on a broken piece of sidewalk as your head makes contact with a low hanging sign (OUCH!!)

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Cobourg ON
    Posts
    1,021
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 13 Times in 11 Posts

    Default Re: Throwing Arts - Connection-Disconnection Pt.2

    Ok.....i was hoping some other people would add to my thoughts.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    6,026
    Thanks
    1,199
    Thanked 1,520 Times in 909 Posts

    Default Re: Throwing Arts - Connection-Disconnection Pt.2

    Quote Originally Posted by blackcatbonz
    but in martial arts, throwing and locking are my favourites
    Oh yeah, I know what you mean! My instructor calls me "sticky hands" not because I know anything at all about Wing-Chun, but because I have a habit of "holding" onto folks when I check and so forth. LOL

    Could you elaborate a little more in layments terms? I'm not familiar with some of the ones you used.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

  4. #4
    kroh's Avatar
    kroh is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Blue Belt
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Rhode Island, USA,
    Posts
    410
    Thanks
    99
    Thanked 115 Times in 79 Posts

    Default Re: Throwing Arts - Connection-Disconnection Pt.2

    sorry about not noticing this thread earlier...work and life, not to mention a bit of Kosho Ryu got in the way.

    The one thing several people in the arts that study blending techniques tell me all the time is that:

    Aiki is not for letting the opponent move on past. Aiki is for allowing him to set himself up so I can face plant him in front of me. How am I going to laugh at him if he lands six feet that way?
    The only art that uses these dynamics and throws the other guy away is Aikido. This is done because of Ueshiba's philosophy. "One strike from an aikido-ka kills." Of course this is not the way that it is seen in the United States but they still maintain the protection aspect of Aikido bcause of it (protect Uke from me and himself).

    IN my short time in Kosho the one thing that I have noticed is that a lock is never really a lock and a throw is never really just a throw. Kosho seems to play cat and mouse with an opponent while some martial arts such as the various jujutsu ryuha would rather finish the opponent off right away )opponent gives incoming attack and bugeisha face plants him so that he is easier to stab). Higher level Kosho seems to adopt a more fearsome attitude but at the level I am seeing it at it seems to redirect and then get nasty.

    One example is from one of the forms I am learning. The throw from the kata is more a redirection that sets Uke up to get beaned in the skull when he turns to get a bead on Tori. So the throw is not really a throw it is meant to unbalance. Once again...Not Segal...but then again...

    I never looked good in a pony tail and prayer beads anyway.

    Regards,
    Walt

  5. #5
    gakusei's Avatar
    gakusei is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Green Belt
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    516
    Thanks
    22
    Thanked 32 Times in 31 Posts

    Default Re: Throwing Arts - Connection-Disconnection Pt.2

    Kosho can seem like cat and mouse because fights are dynamic. Your opponent wont stand there after one punch and let you throw techniques all day. During demos, it also shows that you can maintain control of your opponent until you decide the dance is over.

  6. #6
    hollywood1340's Avatar
    hollywood1340 is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Orange Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Missoula, MT
    Posts
    119
    Thanks
    110
    Thanked 54 Times in 29 Posts

    Default Re: Throwing Arts - Connection-Disconnection Pt.2

    Why I enjoy HKD.
    "When someone offers you something, a hand, or a foot, they are saying "I wish to be your plaything" Why let them go? Their body is your canvas, and pain your brush. Have fun"
    Me
    James D. "Vaudeville" Maxwell
    Missoula, Montana

    "Flow without direction is spary"
    C. Crews


    The IKKO WILL take over the world, the Golden One will have his reckoning. Prepare mere mortals, a wonderful begining awaits you all!

  7. #7
    kroh's Avatar
    kroh is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Blue Belt
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Rhode Island, USA,
    Posts
    410
    Thanks
    99
    Thanked 115 Times in 79 Posts

    Default Re: Throwing Arts - Connection-Disconnection Pt.2

    Quote Originally Posted by gakusei
    Kosho can seem like cat and mouse because fights are dynamic. Your opponent wont stand there after one punch and let you throw techniques all day. During demos, it also shows that you can maintain control of your opponent until you decide the dance is over.
    That's actually a good point. I volunteered a friend of mine in class the other day to bring this up. I asked the instructor how kosho deals with the seasoned fighter. The worst case scenario if you will. In JKD and Kali and the previous Kempo systems I studied...This was often the test for what worked and what didn't. The instructor summed it up in a quote I had heard years earlier.

    Make every move in your opponent a mistake for him.
    They actualy deal well with the concept of a seasoned fighter but it doesn't resemble the beginner Koshso anymore. It starts to look more like Aikijutsu. Blend and evade the attack until a suitable time could be found to blast the guy. And to get back on point, the "throws" used come into play as they use skeletal and muscular strikes as throws (balance breaks)to disrupt the balance (kuzushi) and thus give the Tori that half second to disrupt the guy's good feeling about himself (pain).

    Works for me...

    Regards,
    Walt

  8. #8
    kempo is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. White Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    25
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Throwing Arts - Connection-Disconnection Pt.2

    Walt i am curious who do you study Kosho with.

    All the best George

  9. #9
    kroh's Avatar
    kroh is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Blue Belt
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Rhode Island, USA,
    Posts
    410
    Thanks
    99
    Thanked 115 Times in 79 Posts

    Default Re: Throwing Arts - Connection-Disconnection Pt.2

    Hey George,

    I study in Rhode Island under Walter (Rusty) Rowe and Ray Olson who are instructors under Mike Brown. I started the class in December. Been fun so far as my prior experience has both helped and hindered my study of it.

    Definately fun though...
    Regards,
    Walt

    P. S. Your turn....

  10. #10
    Kosho-Monk is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. White Belt
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Jaffrey, NH
    Posts
    45
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Throwing Arts - Connection-Disconnection Pt.2

    One of the nice things about Kosho is that it helps you understand that you can use basically the same movement and, depending on how long you maintain contact for, you can create a strike or a throw or even some other result.

    I like to teach one technique and then show many variations in which the ending is different.

    In Kosho the highest level is when one defends himself without the use of physical force. So if you see a Kosho Ryu practitioner totally dominating their uke with strikes, they are not displaying the higher levels of the art.

    Mike Brown Sensei is truly a master of the higher levels. If he hits you it will hurt, a lot. But his true mastery is displayed in the way he can avoid the attack and create nearly impossible situations for the attacker. All of this is done with very little body contact and energy on his part.


    With respect,
    John Evans

  11. #11
    kempo is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. White Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    25
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Throwing Arts - Connection-Disconnection Pt.2

    Great teachers, Tell them George said hi.

    Sensei Jeff Driscoll started me on the kosho path, i also trained with Sensei Brown. Hanshi is coming to My school the first weekend in March, your more than welcome to attend.

    All the best

    George Chaber

  12. #12
    kempo is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. White Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    25
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Throwing Arts - Connection-Disconnection Pt.2

    Also, the nage of kosho is very intersting because the elements are distilled to the simplest terms and theorys, (unless Hanshi is explaining it)
    but, the throwing within Kosho is found in many arts, just have to look and be concious of how you practice and apply it.


    All the best,

    George

  13. #13
    kroh's Avatar
    kroh is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Blue Belt
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Rhode Island, USA,
    Posts
    410
    Thanks
    99
    Thanked 115 Times in 79 Posts

    Default Re: Throwing Arts - Connection-Disconnection Pt.2

    Quote Originally Posted by kempo
    Great teachers, Tell them George said hi.

    Sensei Jeff Driscoll started me on the kosho path, i also trained with Sensei Brown. Hanshi is coming to My school the first weekend in March, your more than welcome to attend.

    All the best

    George Chaber
    I will say hello for you...Where are you located?
    Regards,
    Walt

  14. #14
    kempo is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. White Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    25
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Throwing Arts - Connection-Disconnection Pt.2

    Bethel, CT

    where we are buried under 2 feet of snow.

    School is Karate America

    your welcome to stop in anytime you are in the area

    All the best

    george

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Cobourg ON
    Posts
    1,021
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 13 Times in 11 Posts

    Default Re: Throwing Arts - Connection-Disconnection Pt.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kosho-Monk
    1.One of the nice things about Kosho is that it helps you understand that you can use basically the same movement and, depending on how long you maintain contact for, you can create a strike or a throw or even some other result.

    I like to teach one technique and then show many variations in which the ending is different.

    2.In Kosho the highest level is when one defends himself without the use of physical force. So if you see a Kosho Ryu practitioner totally dominating their uke with strikes, they are not displaying the higher levels of the art.

    Mike Brown Sensei is truly a master of the higher levels. If he hits you it will hurt, a lot. But his true mastery is displayed in the way he can avoid the attack and create nearly impossible situations for the attacker. All of this is done with very little body contact and energy on his part.


    With respect,
    John Evans

    1. i think this is an element that is overlooked in a lot of martial arts (ones that ive experienced)
    this is also the reason i like looking at the movements in kata.
    ive said before, a good technique to me equals something that can be used regardless of the attack.
    if you take a movement from a kata......have someone come at you every way conceivable and see what you get out of the movement.......the principles should be applicable to almost any attack.

    2. the escaping arts are the basis of all that is kosho (in my opinion). they should be the first thing taught.....and everything subsequent should be shown from the standpoint of escaping. i dont mean escaping in the literal sense of the word i.e. running away.......more in the sense of keeping yourself out of harms way.
    the one major problem you can run into though is creating a martial artist that is afraid to hit someone.

    i think more than anything though, understanding escaping really enhances the other aspects by giving you insight into timing and distance.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Cobourg ON
    Posts
    1,021
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 13 Times in 11 Posts

    Default Re: Throwing Arts - Connection-Disconnection Pt.2

    btw......welcome to KenpoTalk, kempo!

  17. #17
    kroh's Avatar
    kroh is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Blue Belt
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Rhode Island, USA,
    Posts
    410
    Thanks
    99
    Thanked 115 Times in 79 Posts

    Default Re: Throwing Arts - Connection-Disconnection Pt.2

    Thanks for the invite...Might have to take you up on that ...

    Speaking of Snow, I find that working outside (especially in snow) really puts tai sabaki and the ability to stay connected to your opponent to the test. Ever try doing all that fancy footwork outside? Rocks, sticks, vagrants, anything lying around could possibly get in your way and screw up the timing and distancing that makes a proper throw effective.

    Practicing outside is a really great way to learn to off set this but it is not the end all be all method? I know that Roman Soldiers use to train by scattering large bits of wood or old beds onto the training ground so the footing would be uneven and treacherous. Great way to work around things like that.

    And one last thing about fresh snow...great for Ukemi...bad if its yellow.
    Regards,
    Walt

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Cobourg ON
    Posts
    1,021
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 13 Times in 11 Posts

    Default Re: Throwing Arts - Connection-Disconnection Pt.2

    working in the snow really sucks with bare feet.

  19. #19
    kroh's Avatar
    kroh is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Blue Belt
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Rhode Island, USA,
    Posts
    410
    Thanks
    99
    Thanked 115 Times in 79 Posts

    Default Re: Throwing Arts - Connection-Disconnection Pt.2

    What is really a lot of fun is to find some fresh powder and really practice receiving attacks from an opponent trying to take your head off. When the right amount of technique ( and a little bit of kosho mojo ) you can really send them into the deck and not have to worry about those pesky injuries. Training in the snow is a lot of fun but you have to be careful not to get any of it down your shirt. When you take ukemi and fall on your back...{{{{Shiver}}}

    the escaping arts are the basis of all that is kosho (in my opinion). they should be the first thing taught.....and everything subsequent should be shown from the standpoint of escaping. i dont mean escaping in the literal sense of the word i.e. running away.......more in the sense of keeping yourself out of harms way.
    I find that the escaping side of Kosho trains proper body position well so that throws come off as effortless. One of my instructors likes to throw. But he also likes to practice the evasie side of kosho in conjunction. Being on the "inside", what some of the JKD guys call, Trapping Range, is a dangerous place because there is really no advantage for either side. I find that when he gets in this position ( i always volunteer a freind of mine for the demmo...I know better) he really has a sense (instinct, not any of that hocus pocus) of how to off balance the guy and where to be so as not to get hit. I have seen some Aikidoka taking shots have a hard time "realizing" their art in the context of combative motion. Part of the problem was exactly what you mentioned. They had all the skill and will to throw the guy but lacked the proper position and timing to do so. I think the escaping arts teahc this really well.

    the one major problem you can run into though is creating a martial artist that is afraid to hit someone
    I have an instructor like this. He never wants to hit anyone. He says his best strategy is to use the escaping arts to free himself from melee range and then pull out his gun and shoot the "basstid!"

    Whether he has actually pulled this off or not is a matter of some conjecture but the theory sounds solid.

    Regards,
    Walt

  20. #20
    kempo is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. White Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    25
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Throwing Arts - Connection-Disconnection Pt.2

    Escaping is everything within Kosho, but one must realize that escaping must be looked at through the philosphy of kigan, kiasu, and hoken. Also the Octagon has been used in other arts and cultures for a long time. Thin kAikido, Pa kua, Filipino kali, Judo and all classical jujutsu. but i have never seen the depth that Kosho has for the octagon

    All the best

    George

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Remove Ads

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Some Martial Arts Definitions...
    By Bob Hubbard in forum Humor
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 01-10-2011, 02:00 AM
  2. Connection - Disconnection
    By Blackcatbonz in forum Japanese Kempo
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 01-04-2006, 09:48 AM

Search tags for this page (caching method: table, memcache)

kosho ryu sucks

Click on a term to search our site for related topics.