Counte Dante Movie

[H.A.M.A. Joe]

I hope no one minds me posting this topic under the Hall of Remembrance threads, but I really wanted to share this:

I may be dating myself by recalling this, but, how many other people on the boards recall seeing the original Counte Dante ads in comic books back in the 1970's? I was fortunate enough to have four older brothers who actually ordered his book. I read through that thing over and over again! I've been a martial arts junkie since. :-)

I got a good bit of nostalgia today when I learned that a Chicago area film maker is making a documentary of John Keehan (Count Dante). I don't recall where I read the claim, but the Count allegedly studied a form of Kenpo with an unnamed instructor. I wonder if anyone on the Kenpo boards has information on this?

For those of you who don't know who he was, I have listed links below, including Youtube trailers for the movie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_Dante

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN1_2kz1SCE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-Bqb5pT5N0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuokcPCJ9QM

He was an interesting character for sure!

[bdparsons]

He was an interesting character for sure!

I would agree. He, more than anyone else, was responsible for cheapening the value of the martial arts in the American psyche. Though there have been some runner-ups, The only other person I can think of that even comes close is Jean-Claude Van Fraud.

Bill Parsons
Traingle Kenpo Institute

[H.A.M.A. Joe]

I would agree. He, more than anyone else, was responsible for cheapening the value of the martial arts in the American psyche. Though there have been some runner-ups, The only other person I can think of that even comes close is Jean-Claude Van Fraud.

Bill Parsons
Traingle Kenpo Institute

I have to agree with you somewhat, because anytime people tend to overmystify the martial arts, you get a super hero type feeling about what they're trying to do, and it undermines their credibility.

I can think of many in the arts today that are doing the same thing, maybe not as flamboyant, but the same nonetheless. I recall seeing a certain Kenpo course with certificates for sale as long as the buyer "promises" to practice the forms and techniques in the video program.

On the other hand, I have a fond memory of the Count (John Keehan), because I have him to thank for starting me on the martial path.

I really hope the film maker finishes the movie, it's something that I'm really interested in seeing.

[H.A.M.A. Joe]

Dear Kenpo brothers and sisters:

You can besmirch a dead mans rep all you want but I heard it from my sensei Mike Sanders that the man he called "John", not the Count, could kick butt.

There is some excellent material on the web on Dante, one I remember in particular in particular is a series of articles written by a writer for the Chicago Sun Times. If I get a chance I'll see if I can post a link for you or else you might try to find in yourself.

I wonder if the movie talks about the "dojo wars" of the 60's. Dante actually was caught dynamiting a rivals studio if I'm not mistaken. One man was nearly cut in halk by a samurai sword in another altercation.
My Kenpo teacher at the time told our club about the incident as he was good friends with the man who was John Koncevic?

Those who weren't there or didn't know any of the folks involved have no idea how seriously things were taken back then. There was no fancy "full contact" gear. Fights were fought with bare fist and many fighters were injured. Some of the tournaments back then turned into bloodbaths. Fighters "rumbled" in and out of the dojo. I would take a Sensei from those times oever 90% over of what passes for instructors todays simply because they knew how to fight.

Sure the "Count" was hookey and full of BS but he could back it up. He may have helped start the comic book crap we see today but he has also had plenty of help these last 30 years.

Nelson Kari

I hope my post didn't come off as an attempt to smear his name, because that was not my intention. I simply posted this to share a good memory of a man who unkowingly helped me to find my path to the martial arts.

Yes, the Count was hokey, but I have heard the same about the actual man - he was a progressive martial artist who believed in NHB long before the Gracies arrived in the States, and he could put his fists and feet where his mouth was.

Are you from the Chicago area? If you are, have you had the opportunity to meet any of the Keehan/Count students from back in the day? I remember crossing paths with a Sensei Jaco's students from Chicago during my AKA competing days from the mid 80's to mid 90's. From what I heard, Sensei Jaco was a Keehan/Count student from way back.

Sadly, Sensei Jaco passed away earlier this year, and no doubt took a part of the Keehan/Count legacy with him.

Salute,

Joe

[bdparsons]

You can besmirch a dead mans rep all you want but I heard it from my sensei Mike Sanders that the man he called "John", not the Count, could kick butt.

You will notice that I said absolutely nothing concerning John Keehan's martial arts ability. I was "besmirching" his character, but I hardly think he needed any help from anyone in that area. He acted like a snake-oil salesman and that what he should be considered; he acted like a criminal and that's what he should be considered. I don't buy the "that's the way it was" argument either. Each person is responsible for their own actions. Mike Tyson is/was a great boxer, but he's a criminal and a thug in my book, because his actions demonstrated him to be such. Was John Keehan personally responsible for all the bad things in American martial arts? No, but as I said he was one of the first responsible for making the martial arts a joke in the eyes of the American public. Plenty have followed in his footsteps, believe me. Sorry, just because you can "kick butt" doesn't get you automatic respect in my martial arts eyes. My recognition of someone's martial arts skills is different than earning my respect.

Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

[stone_dragone]

Well said, Bill!

[Senjojutsu]

We are talking about someone who advertised in the back of comic books. You know - 1970s comic books ads - such as the ones for hypnotizing coins, x-ray glasses, fake barf, cardboard submarines and learn how to throw your voice booklets. That is what our MA world needs more of - martial artist ventriloquists who can perform their “world’s deadliest fighting secrets”.

However before the world had the Internet, I do not dispute the fact that sometimes these comic book ads caused many a teenager to get off their butts and visit a local dojo, thus beginning a lifelong martial arts journey. The same could be said about using the local Yellow Pages. However nostalgia has its limits especially when one remembers “a character”. That’s like describing a corrupt politician as “colorful”.

As an FYI there is a copyright lawsuit involved with the making of this movie, between Floyd Webb and the “current master” of the Black Dragon Fighting Society. If you have the time and patience you can wallow through this catfight over on another message board that begins with the letters BULL…

[KENPOJOE]

I hope no one minds me posting this topic under the Hall of Remembrance threads, but I really wanted to share this:

I may be dating myself by recalling this, but, how many other people on the boards recall seeing the original Counte Dante ads in comic books back in the 1970's? I was fortunate enough to have four older brothers who actually ordered his book. I read through that thing over and over again! I've been a martial arts junkie since. :-)

I got a good bit of nostalgia today when I learned that a Chicago area film maker is making a documentary of John Keehan (Count Dante). I don't recall where I read the claim, but the Count allegedly studied a form of Kenpo with an unnamed instructor. I wonder if anyone on the Kenpo boards has information on this?

For those of you who don't know who he was, I have listed links below, including Youtube trailers for the movie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_Dante

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN1_2kz1SCE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-Bqb5pT5N0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuokcPCJ9QM

He was an interesting character for sure!

Hi folks!
To answer some of your questions and comments...
I do have an original copy of "The world's deadliest fighting secrets" as well as the updated version by Bill Aguiar, who was Dante's inheiritor. If you look at that book,for the most part, it is a good collection of various "iron hand" (closed fist) & "poison Hand" (open hand) strikes that are prevalent in Kung Fu,Kenpo and Karate systems as well as an occasion obscure ripping/tearing/gouging hand position that resembled a gang sign! j/k! But overall, it was a valid text and I still recomend it to any kenpoist's library.
As far as the person who taught John Keehan/Count Dante kenpo? Simple. That was Ed Parker! After Keehan/Dante left the USKA & Robert Trias,He would travel to Pasadena for a couple weeks at a time and train with Mr. Parker! John Mcsweeney mentions this in his book "Battleaxe:A Warrior's Tale" and confirmed it to me when we spoke at the 1999 & 2001 Gathering of the eagles! He [Mcsweeney) & Keehan took classes together at that time.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

[KENPOJOE]

We are talking about someone who advertised in the back of comic books. You know - 1970s comic books ads - such as the ones for hypnotizing coins, x-ray glasses, fake barf, cardboard submarines and learn how to throw your voice booklets. That is what our MA world needs more of - martial artist ventriloquists who can perform their “world’s deadliest fighting secrets”.

However before the world had the Internet, I do not dispute the fact that sometimes these comic book ads caused many a teenager to get off their butts and visit a local dojo, thus beginning a lifelong martial arts journey. The same could be said about using the local Yellow Pages. However nostalgia has its limits especially when one remembers “a character”. That’s like describing a corrupt politician as “colorful”.

As an FYI there is a copyright lawsuit involved with the making of this movie, between Floyd Webb and the “current master” of the Black Dragon Fighting Society. If you have the time and patience you can wallow through this catfight over on another message board that begins with the letters BULL…

Hi folks!
About the whole comic book ads thing, I believe I was told at one point he [dante] was making in the vicinity of 10 to 20,000 a month from those ads! and this was in the early 1970's! Later, Toroyaro Miazaki would offer a "karate record" & instructional booklet,Andy Linick would offer his book on nunchaku as well and let's not forget the "universal self defense" course offered through charles atlas' company...
Due to the entire lawsuit thing, I have to keep my comments to a minimum.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

[punisher73]

KenpoJoe,

That was VERY interesting. I have heard of Counte Dante many times but never had heard the part about his Kenpo connection or that he had done some training with Ed Parker.

Did he achieve any rank in AK, or just did training to expand on his own studies?

[John M. La Tourrette]

Sure the "Count" was hookey and full of BS but he could back it up. He may have helped start the comic book crap we see today but he has also had plenty of help these last 30 years.

Actually,
My opinion is different.
If he could back it up, which he could and did, then what he did is NOT hookey.
It was real for a certain type of person, the type that would walk into your school and whomp on you if he felt you had dissed him or his style.

I actually like that attitude and I do respect those that have it.

They have a kinesthetic learning base and do "hands-on" with those that slander them.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette
Ps. I do have all his materials around (someplace) and I think many of his Kenpo moves are very effective, even if they are mostly mayhem, which just is NOT allowed in today's world of lawyers, law enforcement and juries.

[John M. La Tourrette]

Dear Dr. John,

It's nice to see you back online again! My comments about the "Count" being "hookey" refer more to the ways in which he marketed himself as "The World's most dangerous fighting man" among other similiar items.
The picture of him as a hairdresser in one of his books with a lovely young lady comes to mind under the "Worlds most dangerous man" logo.

I was always taught that John Keehan alias the "Count" knew how to fight and backed it up with action. A rare comodity these days it seems.

Respectfully,

Nelson Kari

Now you are talking about his marketing/advertising, so since you started the thread I assume we are still on topic.

His marketing did work.

Something that works is not hookey, even though some were offended.

Some people are offended by his marketing. Most of the posts I read here that stated that are justing in agreement frame with the first post. "OH, Mr. X said it's hookey, then I want to be like Mr. X so I'll non-thinkingly agree with that statement".

Those who do marketing well acknowledge the fact that certain types of advertisments do well with a certain juvenile mind set (I also have a juvenile mind set some of the time especially with women, guns, NLP, Hypnosis and martial arts. I want anything I can find on those topics and I don't give a rat's ass if it's good or bad, I WANT IT!).

Other types of marketing do well with a family mind set, especially where the woman literally makes all the decisions.

That mind-set shows up here, on martial talk, and at the studio on a continual basis.

I will NOT change my marketing to appeal to a type of creature I do not want, or like or respect.

I'm sure that John Keehan had some of the same thoughts.

Nice topic Nelson.

I'm glad you brought it up.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

[Celtic_Crippler]

Now you are talking about his marketing/advertising, so since you started the thread I assume we are still on topic.

His marketing did work.

Something that works is not hookey, even though some were offended.

Some people are offended by his marketing. Most of the posts I read here that stated that are justing in agreement frame with the first post. "OH, Mr. X said it's hookey, then I want to be like Mr. X so I'll non-thinkingly agree with that statement".

Those who do marketing well acknowledge the fact that certain types of advertisments do well with a certain juvenile mind set (I also have a juvenile mind set some of the time especially with women, guns, NLP, Hypnosis and martial arts. I want anything I can find on those topics and I don't give a rat's ass if it's good or bad, I WANT IT!).

Other types of marketing do well with a family mind set, especially where the woman literally makes all the decisions.

That mind-set shows up here, on martial talk, and at the studio on a continual basis.

I will NOT change my marketing to appeal to a type of creature I do not want, or like or respect.

I'm sure that John Keehan had some of the same thoughts.

Nice topic Nelson.

I'm glad you brought it up.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

Hmmmm...well...that's actually an excellent point.

Granted, he may have greatly contributed to making martial arts into a cartoony joke with the American public, but his marketing scheme obviously made him a lot of money and got him a lot of students.

...that's what marketing's for. To drive foot traffic to your business or service's door. To generate business...and his business was teaching martial arts (when he wasn't hair dressing I suppose, lol.)

Speaking of image, many "businessmen" have the stereotype of being unscrupulous jerks who's sole purpose in life is to find ways to part you from your money. He was a martial artist, and he was a businessman.

I suppose some would say that a martial artist should display better "character." I personally feel that way myself, but that's probably why my income does not come from teaching martial arts..... my paychecks actually come from working in marketing! ROFL

[Richard Finn]

I must have grown up with the wrong comic books. I never heard of the guy till this thread

[John M. La Tourrette]

I must have grown up with the wrong comic books. I never heard of the guy till this thread

Maybe you are not old enough?

Actually, joking aside, I think it was the later part of the 60's, maybe the early part of the 70's.

John K. not only advertised in comic books but also advertised in Men's Magazines.

I did adapt his "Deadliest Man Alive" Advertisement for Soldier of Fortune magazine, but they had just been sued for the "hitman" ad and refused to take it.

That was interesting.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

[John M. La Tourrette]

I suppose some would say that a martial artist should display better "character." I personally feel that way myself, but that's probably why my income does not come from teaching martial arts..... my paychecks actually come from working in marketing! ROFL

Well,

What does that mean?
Ed Parker was definitively a businessman, and when you look back you can see how he was definitively a "self-promoter" (referencing advertising, not black belts, but it could definitively be historically construed that way also).

John Keehan, his student, did the same.

Some say that they had different morals and are damned ready to throw out the baby with the dishwater.

I'm curious to why you don't use your marketing expertise with your studio?

I do, and I'm very glad to have those learned, effective skills.

Sincerely,
Dr. John M. La Tourrette

[Celtic_Crippler]

Well,

What does that mean?
Ed Parker was definitively a businessman, and when you look back you can see how he was definitively a "self-promoter" (referencing advertising, not black belts, but it could definitively be historically construed that way also).

John Keehan, his student, did the same.

Some say that they had different morals and are damned ready to throw out the baby with the dishwater.

I'm curious to why you don't use your marketing expertise with your studio?

I do, and I'm very glad to have those learned, effective skills.

Sincerely,
Dr. John M. La Tourrette

I posted that for the irony it entailed. LOL

I just teach, the studio belongs to my original Kenpo instructor. I've done some things for him on the side, but he does little to no marketing at all.

Marketing your school and services is imperitive if you plan on making a profit (which is probably why sifu stays in the red...but I digress)

However, I know we've lost students because we do not cater to some accepted practices in today's Western martial arts business environment. For instance, we don't test every month....our students test once they demonstrate they know the material..however long that takes. I see that as adhering to a value that we will not compromise for commercial gain. I'm not accusing anyone here of doing that..just using that as an example.