Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 41 to 57 of 57

Thread: Striking Serpent's Head: What Good is It?

  1. #41
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,034
    Thanks
    167
    Thanked 742 Times in 432 Posts

    Default Re: Striking Serpent's Head: What Good is It?

    If the person has a lot of forward momentum, why not just do a tackle technique?

    Tracy's has an equivalent technique, Front Bearhug, with 4 variations at Orange Belt (plus a bonus variation that comes later) - but that's assuming you screwed up and let them get you in a bear hug in the first place. However, Bearhug B, C, D and E can be done if they are pushing forward, pulling back or trying to lift you up (E is really good there)

    Whether you modify the technique or not is up to you. However, sprawls don't work so well against bear hugs, and "front bearhug" does not work so well against a low shoot. Totally different attacks. I'd rather work both.
    Kenpo, moving in open piecewise Bézier curves since 2011

    Trying hard not to lapse into speaking kenponics

    Been doing computers since 1982, on forums, chats and all for nearly 3 decades. Only ever blocked one person.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to J-squared For This Useful Post:

    JamesB (07-09-2009)

  3. #42
    JamesB is offline
    KenpoTalk
    1st. Brown Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Cheltenham, UK
    Posts
    844
    Thanks
    566
    Thanked 545 Times in 314 Posts

    Default Re: Striking Serpent's Head: What Good is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkside View Post
    So, I take it you don't anchor your elbow while pulling their head back for the strike to the throat? I never stated that anchoring the elbows is THE lesson to be taken away from this technique, that should always be practiced. However anchoring the elbow that is peeling the head back has a distinctly different effect than not doing so. I wasn't implying anything else..
    Doc said it right... sorry for the confusion. Yes, what I was trying to say is that anchoring the elbow is all well and good, but without a response to the bearhug then it isn't much use.

  4. #43
    JamesB is offline
    KenpoTalk
    1st. Brown Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Cheltenham, UK
    Posts
    844
    Thanks
    566
    Thanked 545 Times in 314 Posts

    Default Re: Striking Serpent's Head: What Good is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    How do you guys deal with that initial assault?
    This is the question we should be looking to answer here.

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to JamesB For This Useful Post:

    Drew (07-09-2009)

  6. #44
    Drew is offline
    KenpoTalk
    3rd. Brown Belt
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    711
    Thanks
    556
    Thanked 587 Times in 326 Posts

    Default Re: Striking Serpent's Head: What Good is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    I was going to say something, but as I looked further I think James B summed it up pretty well. So I'll just say "What He said."
    Yeah, I am late to the party too.
    A little learning is a dangerous thing;
    drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
    there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
    and drinking largely sobers us again. --Alexander Pope

  7. #45
    Drew is offline
    KenpoTalk
    3rd. Brown Belt
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    711
    Thanks
    556
    Thanked 587 Times in 326 Posts

    Default Re: Striking Serpent's Head: What Good is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    I think it's more likely that someone would shoot on me than run up and try to put me in a bear-hug as one would see on Monday Night Raw.

    It's just not that likely today, maybe in the 60's it was...but not now.
    Ya never know when you're going to get mugged by a WWE guy...I look at the technique primarily as a solution to a cross-gender attack where the attacker is trying to move the victim somewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    I'm probably going to replace this technique in my curriculum with a sprawl adding in a few follow ups. I think that would be a greater benefit to my students in terms of self-defense.
    The sprawl could work if they are shooting low, but what I don't like about it is that you are giving up your base and playing their game. Every time I ever tried to get cute with a BJJ guy and think I could play their game better, I was quickly submitted. I came to believe it takes significant skills gained from training to be able to out grapple a grappler. So, I prefer the solutions where you remain in erect posture, maximally aligned, and using the attacker's own body against them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    I do like the technique as altered for females; however, because they could find themselves lifted up by a male in various scenarios that another male wouldn't likely find themselves in.

    In this case I insert a knee to the groin with the intent of canceling the attacker's height zone and allowing the female to get her feet back on the ground. The follow up from there is pretty much the same as most practice the technique though. So I don't think it's entirely useless; just useless against a shoot (which is the more probable attack I think.)
    I don't think this solution is that good because it hasn't really dealt with the forward momentum and without indexing the body and misaligning the attacker, they'll still be able to lift the victim. And if they catch the victim unaware and quickly close the gap, the knee may not be an effective weapon. Especially if they grab low on a short woman and pull her up high. While it may work, I would still prefer to stack the deck more in my favor than what this would provide.
    A little learning is a dangerous thing;
    drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
    there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
    and drinking largely sobers us again. --Alexander Pope

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Drew For This Useful Post:

    Doc (07-09-2009),J Ellis (07-09-2009)

  9. #46
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    West Michigan
    Posts
    1,926
    Thanks
    1,670
    Thanked 2,837 Times in 1,262 Posts

    Default Re: Striking Serpent's Head: What Good is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    I think it's more likely that someone would shoot on me than run up and try to put me in a bear-hug as one would see on Monday Night Raw.

    It's just not that likely today, maybe in the 60's it was...but not now.

    If somebody shoots on me now I really don't see this entry as practical or effective. As previously stated it really doesn't deal with the vast forward momentum.

    I'm probably going to replace this technique in my curriculum with a sprawl adding in a few follow ups. I think that would be a greater benefit to my students in terms of self-defense.

    I do like the technique as altered for females; however, because they could find themselves lifted up by a male in various scenarios that another male wouldn't likely find themselves in.

    In this case I insert a knee to the groin with the intent of canceling the attacker's height zone and allowing the female to get her feet back on the ground. The follow up from there is pretty much the same as most practice the technique though. So I don't think it's entirely useless; just useless against a shoot (which is the more probable attack I think.)
    When working in the jail, I saw this exact scenario happen quite a few time. One inmate would bearhug, then pick up and slam the other guy down on the floor. It was not an attempted shoot or suplex, just a big strength based bear hug. KO'd the other guy everytime it happened.

    So I wouldn't toss out that attack quite yet. It also was not the "entry" technique it was when they were in clinching range after the fight had started.
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

  10. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to punisher73 For This Useful Post:

    Dr. Dave in da house (07-09-2009),J Ellis (07-09-2009),JamesB (07-09-2009),Mac (07-09-2009),Rolls_Royce_Phantom (07-09-2009),Ronnak01 (07-10-2009)

  11. #47
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Dana Point, CA
    Posts
    2,342
    Thanks
    2,295
    Thanked 4,372 Times in 1,426 Posts

    Default Re: Striking Serpent's Head: What Good is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    When working in the jail, I saw this exact scenario happen quite a few time. One inmate would bearhug, then pick up and slam the other guy down on the floor. It was not an attempted shoot or suplex, just a big strength based bear hug. KO'd the other guy everytime it happened.

    So I wouldn't toss out that attack quite yet. It also was not the "entry" technique it was when they were in clinching range after the fight had started.
    I got in more than my fair share of brawls bouncing and rabble-rousing, where I saw quite a lot of asundry shoots, as well as "kamikaze bm-rushes", where guy ran in and latched on in order to swing wildly, pull hair, rip shirts, etc. But I never did see what you just described above. I also never worked the jails, which are unique environments that seem rich in scenarios I've not been exposed to: A gentleman on another site is a guard at a max security place, and write of some pretty unkind stuff, happening fairly regularly.

    Some of it, too, may be that -- as a bouncer, I tended to rely more on kickboxing and judo/jujutsu, instead of sticking my fingers in somebody's eye, rapping them oin the back of the skull, or punching them in the windpipe (liability and freedom issues). If someone lunged at me to ensnare me for a bearhug, I would not have known...cuz I was thinking about rushing them for a choke, throw, or control, and they just saved me the jeaporday of having to close range; I generally thanked them by turning their position and momentum into a control after interception.

    Thank you for sharing your experience. I think these sorts of insights provide a context of application that's vital to the understanding and application of the art.

    D.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dr. Dave in da house For This Useful Post:

    J Ellis (07-09-2009),punisher73 (07-10-2009)

  13. #48
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    West Michigan
    Posts
    1,926
    Thanks
    1,670
    Thanked 2,837 Times in 1,262 Posts

    Default Re: Striking Serpent's Head: What Good is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    I got in more than my fair share of brawls bouncing and rabble-rousing, where I saw quite a lot of asundry shoots, as well as "kamikaze bm-rushes", where guy ran in and latched on in order to swing wildly, pull hair, rip shirts, etc. But I never did see what you just described above. I also never worked the jails, which are unique environments that seem rich in scenarios I've not been exposed to: A gentleman on another site is a guard at a max security place, and write of some pretty unkind stuff, happening fairly regularly.

    Some of it, too, may be that -- as a bouncer, I tended to rely more on kickboxing and judo/jujutsu, instead of sticking my fingers in somebody's eye, rapping them oin the back of the skull, or punching them in the windpipe (liability and freedom issues). If someone lunged at me to ensnare me for a bearhug, I would not have known...cuz I was thinking about rushing them for a choke, throw, or control, and they just saved me the jeaporday of having to close range; I generally thanked them by turning their position and momentum into a control after interception.

    Thank you for sharing your experience. I think these sorts of insights provide a context of application that's vital to the understanding and application of the art.

    D.
    Thanks for sharing yours. I enjoy learning from yours (and others) experiences from security and bouncing. It's a different mindset and implimentation of strategies. After my work in the jail I transfered out to the road. The few times I have had to fight, it wasn't that the other guy was trying to hurt me as much as it was just get away. Again, a completely different set of skills to contain and subdue then someone just trying to assault me like in a bar fight etc.
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

  14. #49
    Ronnak01 is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Orange Belt
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Elk Grove CA
    Posts
    106
    Thanks
    76
    Thanked 68 Times in 46 Posts

    Default Re: Striking Serpent's Head: What Good is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by punisher73 View Post
    Thanks for sharing yours. I enjoy learning from yours (and others) experiences from security and bouncing. It's a different mindset and implimentation of strategies. After my work in the jail I transfered out to the road. The few times I have had to fight, it wasn't that the other guy was trying to hurt me as much as it was just get away. Again, a completely different set of skills to contain and subdue then someone just trying to assault me like in a bar fight etc.
    Wow, I like the new perspective thanks...
    LIFE IS GOOD

  15. #50
    AKMA is offline
    KenpoTalk
    White Belt
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    11
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts

    Default Re: Striking Serpent's Head: What Good is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slingshot View Post
    This technique is all about timing and is a waste of time if you let the opponent complete the bear hug.
    i agree so is a technique i learned called driving elbows once the bear hug is complete its useless im glad we have other options
    AKMA



  16. #51
    Doc's Avatar
    Doc
    Doc is offline
    AKI Contributing Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    8,439
    Thanks
    4,269
    Thanked 14,934 Times in 5,591 Posts

    Default Re: Striking Serpent's Head: What Good is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    I got in more than my fair share of brawls bouncing and rabble-rousing, where I saw quite a lot of asundry shoots, as well as "kamikaze bm-rushes", where guy ran in and latched on in order to swing wildly, pull hair, rip shirts, etc. But I never did see what you just described above. I also never worked the jails, which are unique environments that seem rich in scenarios I've not been exposed to: A gentleman on another site is a guard at a max security place, and write of some pretty unkind stuff, happening fairly regularly.

    Some of it, too, may be that -- as a bouncer, I tended to rely more on kickboxing and judo/jujutsu, instead of sticking my fingers in somebody's eye, rapping them oin the back of the skull, or punching them in the windpipe (liability and freedom issues). If someone lunged at me to ensnare me for a bearhug, I would not have known...cuz I was thinking about rushing them for a choke, throw, or control, and they just saved me the jeaporday of having to close range; I generally thanked them by turning their position and momentum into a control after interception.

    Thank you for sharing your experience. I think these sorts of insights provide a context of application that's vital to the understanding and application of the art.

    D.
    The only Chiro / thug I know. Trying to build my own.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


    www.MSUACF.com

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to Doc For This Useful Post:

    Dr. Dave in da house (3 Weeks Ago)

  18. #52
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Dana Point, CA
    Posts
    2,342
    Thanks
    2,295
    Thanked 4,372 Times in 1,426 Posts

    Default Re: Striking Serpent's Head: What Good is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    The only Chiro / thug I know. Trying to build my own.
    Don't go doin' too good a job. He's already a better healer than I am...if you keep training him up, I'm going to lose ALL bragging rights over the boy.

    On second thought, nevermind. Train him up and let him loose..I could use some good company on the darkside

    Anyway, he's the man I go to when my back is in trouble, and I'm very picky about whose hands I place my health in -- glad you two got it worked out.

    D.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

  19. #53
    Doc's Avatar
    Doc
    Doc is offline
    AKI Contributing Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    8,439
    Thanks
    4,269
    Thanked 14,934 Times in 5,591 Posts

    Default Re: Striking Serpent's Head: What Good is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    This is the question we should be looking to answer here.
    While this technique can be assigned easily to the "Cross Gender" category, (and we teach it both ways), it helps to point out the difficulty of
    Body Momentum" type assaults of all kind. In these attacks the Body Momentum IS the attack followed by secondary assaults of grabbing, clinching, head butting, striking, etc. In this case the first and secondary assaults come so quickly, they may be seen by some as a singular attack, but in fact, one occurs than the other, and in this instance you must deal with them both in the order they occur.

    Because the Body Momentum and utilization of the attackers mass is the primary assault vehicle in the initial attack, dealing with this issue is also paramount in "Surviving The Initial Assault" (SIA). If this is not countered immediately and neutralized, than the rest of our defensive strategies will be, at best, severely compromised, and at worse, non-existent.

    In our teaching there is a principled theme for these type attacks that is always a combination of "Indexed" upper body hand and arm movement to assist the process and marry Platforms, in conjunction with specific footwork to absorb the momentum, correct the instability created by stepping rearward, and re-establish a solid cohesive and married upper and lower platforms to allow for the initial retaliation. This also includes, in addition to negating his forward momentum, a canceling of his Height Zones completely to counter any opportunity to "lift" even though the clinch is completed.

    While simple in execution, it is difficult to describe without first hand knowledge and instruction. Even in our own Coursebooks, which give considerable detail to technique execution, these components are simply written and referred to as "Surviving The Initial Assault," and are left to in class instruction to explain the mechanisms.

    Although it is a different technique, you can get a "general" idea by looking at our version of "Delayed Sword."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=618ZYKugQSs

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaT1u...eature=related

    In the "slo-mo" version you can see that Mr. Perez is "struck" by the hand (Body Momentum) BEFORE the actual grab is accomplished, thus the attack is two-fold and the Body Momentum is the first issue to neutralize. You'll notice Mr. Perez utilized his feet to absorb the impact and Body Momentum Energy while moving his arms and hands to assist in the process. (This is what happens in reality. Someone strikes you, and you move your feet. We simply move our feet purposefully with the aim of establishing a solid base. Also your Startle Reflex will engage your hands and arms, and we simply extend the action into Purposeful Indexed Movements to assist the feet. Once all of this is accomplished, than the Initial retaliation takes place with a PAM as part of the stabilization process. On the mat after about a half an hour, you can begin to make this feel reasonable comfortable. Than we close the eyes so students can't cheat, and can internalize the reactions.

    "Striking Serpents Head," "Captured Twigs," "Tripping Arrow," etc are themed in our teaching to all utilize the exact same Surviving The Initial Assault Mechanisms. Once learned, as a students progresses, they are free to concentrate on the initial retaliation as their SIA Mechanisms get sharper and more inculcated into their synapsis response patterns.

    Nothing I've written should be construed to suggest that a "victim" should wait for the attacker. What we do is practice reality based and themed techniques to insure that students are capable of countering realistic scenarios when you are caught unaware, as the theme of any Body Momentum, hands-on technique suggests.

    Kenpo questions to make Kenpo better always accepted.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


    www.MSUACF.com

  20. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Doc For This Useful Post:

    Celtic_Crippler (07-15-2009),J Ellis (07-14-2009)

  21. #54
    Doc's Avatar
    Doc
    Doc is offline
    AKI Contributing Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    8,439
    Thanks
    4,269
    Thanked 14,934 Times in 5,591 Posts

    Default Re: Striking Serpent's Head: What Good is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    Don't go doin' too good a job. He's already a better healer than I am...if you keep training him up, I'm going to lose ALL bragging rights over the boy.

    On second thought, nevermind. Train him up and let him loose..I could use some good company on the darkside

    Anyway, he's the man I go to when my back is in trouble, and I'm very picky about whose hands I place my health in -- glad you two got it worked out.

    D.
    He's nicer to me than you, (he don't hurt) AND he actually shows up.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


    www.MSUACF.com

  22. #55
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Dana Point, CA
    Posts
    2,342
    Thanks
    2,295
    Thanked 4,372 Times in 1,426 Posts

    Default Re: Striking Serpent's Head: What Good is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    He's nicer to me than you, (he don't hurt) AND he actually shows up.
    I'm 500 miles away! And he don't hurt....yet. Wait till he gets to the Rolfing
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

  23. #56
    K2WO's Avatar
    K2WO is offline
    KenpoTalk
    White Belt
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Posts
    2
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Striking Serpent's Head: What Good is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    Firstly, there's nothing in the technique to address the attacker's forward momentum. 'Stepping back' is not going to work. The rest of the technique (which is silly imo) wouldn't get a look-in as you'd find yourselfs pummelled into the ground. That should be reason enough, for anyone, to discard this technique no matter how useful the 'ending' is.. which in my opinion is completely out of place given the nature of the attack.

    If this is a technique to highlight the half-fist (serpent-head) strike, then picking a front bear-hug as teaching vehicle was a really, really bad idea.

    "there's nothing in the technique to address the attacker's forward momentum" + "Stepping back' is not going to work"........This is where I disagree. Just as you learn how to move your hips in ground fighting, so shall it be standing up. Stepping back will stop momentum when done right. At the least it will, with pivot motioning of the hips and or placing your back foot on the ball, with your knee pointing forward; will absorbed the opponents momentum. This is done at the same time you get lower to the ground. This will widen your base in forward bow. This is the benefit of Kenpo stance. Most people stand flat footed back there and they're more squared up which allows for easier shoot and take down. I personally use these principles in my ram techniques. As for the rest of the technique spoken of HERE....we must understand IN fighting, you often find yourself using pieces of a technique. So no matter the technique, timing is crucial!

  24. #57
    Doc's Avatar
    Doc
    Doc is offline
    AKI Contributing Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    8,439
    Thanks
    4,269
    Thanked 14,934 Times in 5,591 Posts

    Default Re: Striking Serpent's Head: What Good is It?

    Quote Originally Posted by K2WO View Post
    "there's nothing in the technique to address the attacker's forward momentum" + "Stepping back' is not going to work"........This is where I disagree. Just as you learn how to move your hips in ground fighting, so shall it be standing up. Stepping back will stop momentum when done right. At the least it will, with pivot motioning of the hips and or placing your back foot on the ball, with your knee pointing forward; will absorbed the opponents momentum.
    Unfortunately sir, this is about as wrong as it can be. "Stepping back" is definitely not going to work for a lot of mechanical reasons as well as the issue of Disassociated Connectivity based on unoptimized movement in human anatomy. There is no "right way" to do this without a correcting mechanism. Comparing this to "ground fighting" is ludicrous at best in a horizontal position. When you're vertical you have nothing to "brace" against and significant Body Momentum WILL overwhelm the body's ability to brace by a simple step back. The mechanisms simply don't work that way.

    This is done at the same time you get lower to the ground. This will widen your base in forward bow. This is the benefit of Kenpo stance. Most people stand flat footed back there and they're more squared up which allows for easier shoot and take down. I personally use these principles in my ram techniques. As for the rest of the technique spoken of HERE....we must understand IN fighting, you often find yourself using pieces of a technique. So no matter the technique, timing is crucial!
    Unfortunately, what you're saying actually doesn't make sense on any level. By your logic a running back with the ball could stop a tackler by simply taking a step back to absorb the momentum. Clearly you don't have a significant grasp of the complexity of the problem in reality. Who told you this nonsense?
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


    www.MSUACF.com

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

Remove Ads

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 06-01-2010, 02:00 PM
  2. Replies: 27
    Last Post: 06-05-2006, 05:55 PM
  3. Striking Serpent's head
    By Rob Broad in forum Ed Parker Kenpo
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-25-2006, 11:13 PM
  4. Set: Coordination Set 1
    By Rob Broad in forum Ed Parker Kenpo
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-23-2006, 04:11 PM