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Thread: Value of Kenpo Forms Training

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    Default Re: Kenpo and NHB, UFC, Pride etc

    Quote Originally Posted by WristTwist
    What you are not getting is that it is an art and subject to interpretation as the user sees fit. I do not feel robbed in any way, and actually feel like I am getting a better take on Kenpo from somebody that actually USES it in real fights,...
    This thread is getting sidetracked. But from a real case scenario from yours truly; I was in an altercation at a club recently. I was minding my own business when a gentlmans girlfriend took something from me abruptly. When I asked her for it back he got right in my face. I walked away, he slapped the drink out of my hand, my friend pulled me away. I went away angry but not enough to warrant anything. He came up behind me seconds later and put his left hand on my shoulder and said "I'm waiting outside for you"

    So me being the taking care of business type, i though why wait. What did I do you might ask? The first spontaneous thing that came to mind. I did a section of short form 2. I stepped into a right transitional cat, left inward block, right outward. I didn;t half fist him but he was hit with a palm I think, a right midsection, and a left hook inserted.

    To put it simply. From the hundreds of techniques I have practiced over and over. In the time of crisis I went into form. To each his own. But I beleive form is essential to martial arts growth, instead of getting physical constapation when you need to perform
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    Default Re: Kenpo and NHB, UFC, Pride etc

    Wow- Interesting story, did the bad guy fall down and go "boom"?

    WristTwist- You said "not phony point sparring and form contests that show nothing of real world use."

    Point sparring and form contests? Nothing of real world use? Now you are just being silly... Casey just mentioned using a part of a form in a self-defense situation. Balance, coordination, focus...uh oh I already mentioned all his before and you ignored it saying it is useless...sorry

    Train a bit longer and see if you opinion changes-
    Last edited by Dianhsuhe; 12-18-2005 at 02:57 AM. Reason: Another thought-
    The above is just my opinion.

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    Default Re: Kenpo and NHB, UFC, Pride etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Dianhsuhe
    Wow- Interesting story, did the bad guy fall down and go "boom"?
    My roomate and Training buddy Pat was the friend who pulled me away. He said it happened so fast that the guy was blown away. Just like the saying; Kenpo is like percussion, with human bodies as instruments.
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    Default Re: Kenpo and NHB, UFC, Pride etc

    Maybe we can get an admin or mod for this section to split the thread into 2 distinct threads, one about Kenpo in the UFC etc... and another about the value of forms training.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Kenpo and NHB, UFC, Pride etc

    i put a link in post #30......its pertinent, even though it is in the okinawan kempo section.

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    Default Re: Value of Kenpo Forms Training

    New Thread

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    Default Re: Value of Kenpo Forms Training

    I don't know what the original question was, but it appears to be 'what is the value of training in forms?'

    First of all, three is a magic number. Kenpo is no exception. Forms, Sparring and techniques. Forms teach balance, concentration, basics, techniques, fluid motion, focus, visualization skills and they make it possible to practice a lot of material fairly quickly without having to refer to a list.

    I love doing forms. I like to imagine my opponents come at me from multiple directions. It also has improved my sequential flow considerably.

    Forms are waaaay cool in my book.

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    Default Re: Value of Kenpo Forms Training

    Forms are an important part of the training, forms allow you to practice by yourself. There are so many lesson found in the forms that to take them away from teh training is to rob the student of learning possiblities.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Value of Kenpo Forms Training

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad
    Forms are an important part of the training, forms allow you to practice by yourself. There are so many lesson found in the forms that to take them away from teh training is to rob the student of learning possiblities.
    I definitely have to agree with Mr. Broad. I personally feel forms training is a "must have" in the practicing of a martial art (especially in Kenpo).

    There are many lessons we can learn from the forms. Some of those lessons are grafting, moving from point of origin, category completion, coordination, balance, and list goes on.

    I think the key is to have a balance of everything; forms, technique, sparring, drills, and the biggie in my mind.... basics training.

    All of this together will benefit you in the long run. I think too many times, we find one thing we are comfortable with, say for example technique lines. We can run them all day long, but if we never step onto the mat and do some spontaneous sparring... something is missing. Same goes on the other side of the spectrum. You only spar, you will miss out on the developement of other things.

    I think it then boils down to the instructor having a well balanced lesson plan and that will make the world of difference.

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    Default Re: Value of Kenpo Forms Training

    Many traditional styles have their entire motion key put into their forms. This is done so a student can see teh basics in application rather than in isolation. It also can hold a lot of key principles for that style.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Value of Kenpo Forms Training

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad
    Many traditional styles have their entire motion key put into their forms. This is done so a student can see teh basics in application rather than in isolation. It also can hold a lot of key principles for that style.
    1

    When students are having a problem with a technique, I can usually point out a spot in there form where it is.

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    Default Re: Value of Kenpo Forms Training

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad
    Many traditional styles have their entire motion key put into their forms. This is done so a student can see teh basics in application rather than in isolation. It also can hold a lot of key principles for that style.
    you hit the nail on the head with that statement.

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    Default Re: Value of Kenpo Forms Training

    I know we are not done with this topic. More opinions would be greatly appreciated.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Value of Kenpo Forms Training

    I could've sworn I've commented on this topic several times before..... It seems to be a common debate in the MA world in general; the value of forms that is. Anway, since you asked here's my 0.02.

    There is no substitute for actual combat. Therefore, different tools are used to focus on different areas that will increase your chances of surviving and/or being victorious in the event of actual combat.

    Tools like techniques, forms, drills, and sparring all have their benefits but none stand alone as a sole resource for training for combat.

    Each tool could have it's own thread for discussing it's particular benefit. This thread, however, is concerned with forms. Most of the benefits I know of have already been mentioned; grafting for instance.

    As Mr. Sutherland found out, real life applications can be gleaned from forms as well. Our particular school stresses the "why's" behind the movements of the forms. It's not just a dance..there are reasons behind the moves and it is important that the student know them in order to get the benefits offered from practicing forms.

    For this reason I stress "visualization" when practicing forms. I practice, and teach that students should visualize attackers and the weapons they use when performing a form. This helps to root the proper responses to certain attacks in the subconcious so that you will react spontaneously if confronted by an attacker.

    IMHO =)
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    Default Re: Value of Kenpo Forms Training

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    I could've sworn I've commented on this topic several times before..... It seems to be a common debate in the MA world in general; the value of forms that is. Anway, since you asked here's my 0.02.

    There is no substitute for actual combat. Therefore, different tools are used to focus on different areas that will increase your chances of surviving and/or being victorious in the event of actual combat.

    Tools like techniques, forms, drills, and sparring all have their benefits but none stand alone as a sole resource for training for combat.

    Each tool could have it's own thread for discussing it's particular benefit. This thread, however, is concerned with forms. Most of the benefits I know of have already been mentioned; grafting for instance.

    As Mr. Sutherland found out, real life applications can be gleaned from forms as well. Our particular school stresses the "why's" behind the movements of the forms. It's not just a dance..there are reasons behind the moves and it is important that the student know them in order to get the benefits offered from practicing forms.

    For this reason I stress "visualization" when practicing forms. I practice, and teach that students should visualize attackers and the weapons they use when performing a form. This helps to root the proper responses to certain attacks in the subconcious so that you will react spontaneously if confronted by an attacker.

    IMHO =)
    "Sherman, set the wayback machine..."

    Forms are definitely an important part of an overall training curriculum. The movement is typically different from self defense techniques, which provides an added dimension, and it's also continuous. Instead of taking a couple of seconds to perform a self defense technique, you're moving continuously for 1-2 minutes in a multiple attacker scenario. In that respect, it can help with stamina. Moving through a form without losing detail or intensity can tiring.

    There is also the intent of the form. What is it trying to teach? As a result, it's going to have a number of moves within it to reflect the lesson being taught, as opposed to one or two that may be in a SD technique.

    On a more ethereal plane, forms can be the expression of the "Art" aspect of martial arts.

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    Default Re: Value of Kenpo Forms Training

    What type of Kenpo do you study?

    The reason I ask is you stated the movement in your forms differs from self defense techniques. Well, in American Kenpo a lot of the forms consist of established self-defense techniques strung together with transitions.

    Does your school simply omit these forms or is it a different "Kenpo?"
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Value of Kenpo Forms Training

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    What type of Kenpo do you study?

    The reason I ask is you stated the movement in your forms differs from self defense techniques. Well, in American Kenpo a lot of the forms consist of established self-defense techniques strung together with transitions.

    Does your school simply omit these forms or is it a different "Kenpo?"
    I find a lot of the forms ex. short 3 and long 3; take certain techniqes and alter different actions, like zones or style of attack. For example, the destructive twins at the beginning of long 3 is different than the way the technique is written out in the SD manual. This is just the way I learnt them of course.
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    Default Re: Value of Kenpo Forms Training

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    What type of Kenpo do you study?

    The reason I ask is you stated the movement in your forms differs from self defense techniques. Well, in American Kenpo a lot of the forms consist of established self-defense techniques strung together with transitions.

    Does your school simply omit these forms or is it a different "Kenpo?"
    Our system is called Bok Fu Do. It's based in Tracy kenpo but has been taken down the chinese path. In fact, once you get to BB, you're pretty much done with kenpo and are fully into kung fu.

    The only forms we do that have identified SD techniques in them are the "colored" sets and Mass Attack. The colored sets are to show proficiency in all the lower material when going for Brown Belt. Orange Set contains all techniques and kicks for yellow and orange belt and so on.

    We teach forms by the move, not by the technique. They may have techniques in them that are not part of our SD techniques, but they are not identified as such.

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    Default Re: Value of Kenpo Forms Training

    I see. That's very interesting. How many forms does your system have all together?
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Value of Kenpo Forms Training

    Forms and sets teach us about correct posture, balance, agility, fluidity, and rooting. Forms are an important part of training, and all of the forms should be required for promotion as set out by Ed Parker.

    The dictionary forms (Short 1 & 2, Long 1 & 2) demonstrate rules and principles of motion and show a common pattern in the blocking sequences: inward, outward, upward, and downward. These forms are the Kenpo power principle forms and are not meant to demonstrate an imaginary fight scenario.

    Short Form 3 and above encompass the enyclopedias or information research of the system.

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