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Thread: Should a instructor practice during class ?

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    Thumbs up Should a instructor practice during class ?

    Ok when i was in 3rd grade doing math i dont recall my teacher at her desk doing math too.

    It comes down to am i here to train me or train you.

    If i train myself, the student would get less attention based on the attention to detail anyone can pay.

    If i focus on the student then i can help them more..
    but dont get to play at that time.

    Yet i understand a student can use an example so it would appear the answer to this question is all 3, you , the student and you and the student.

    A question is no good without an example.

    I have 12 kids from age 7-12 lined up in front of me. They all know their basics but lots need individual help. So would it be better to just get up in front of them and go though the basics with them. Or have another student lead them though the basics while i walk around and jump in some help where ever its needed. Fix a low kick or show a kid their bad NB.

    I have a assistant and would like to know how to best get everyone the attention they need without having a smaller class and making sure at the end of class when parents come to pick their kids up or watch class that the parent feels their kid is getting the attention they need.

    I also understand breaking the group in two is a option. But that requires too much of my assistant at this time.

    I also understand that a beginner class of kids is one thing and working with my adult advanced group is different.

    How do other classes deal with these issues ?

    Thank You
    Famous musicians dont practice. Their on the road playing to much.

    In Kenpo, that would be ..... Ill leave you pondering like a Koan..

    "The one who knows nothing is the one who truly knows all."

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    Default Re: Should a instructor practice during class ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moonkloud View Post
    Ok when i was in 3rd grade doing math i dont recall my teacher at her desk doing math too.

    It comes down to am i here to train me or train you.
    Apparently you are unfamiliar with the "three person perspective" to teaching a physical activity, and it would appear you don't have much experience. Teaching information that is purely intellectual in execution is a long way from the execution of physical principles. Physically interacting with your students provides valuable feedback for you and the student. Or, you can "acquire" your black belt, automatically become a certified "teacher," and stand around and point out what others are doing wrong.
    If i train myself, the student would get less attention based on the attention to detail anyone can pay.
    That's assuming that you have the knowledge and the ability to train yourself in Kenpo as a 1st degree black belt from anywhere.
    If i focus on the student then i can help them more.
    More than who? It's a pretty good bet, and your stage of development, interacting with students will probably more valuable to you than they, but they will (hopefully) benefit from the experience as well.
    A question is no good without an example.
    ?
    I have 12 kids from age 7-12 lined up in front of me. They all know their basics but lots need individual help. So would it be better to just get up in front of them and go though the basics with them. Or have another student lead them though the basics while i walk around and jump in some help where ever its needed. Fix a low kick or show a kid their bad NB.

    I have a assistant and would like to know how to best get everyone the attention they need without having a smaller class and making sure at the end of class when parents come to pick their kids up or watch class that the parent feels their kid is getting the attention they need.

    I also understand breaking the group in two is a option. But that requires too much of my assistant at this time.

    I also understand that a beginner class of kids is one thing and working with my adult advanced group is different.

    How do other classes deal with these issues ?
    Well you're teaching children so you're leading an activity, not teaching. Either way welcome to the title of "instructor." Maybe you should dial back your own expectations. There are no easy answers, but I can tell you that if you don't physically interact with your students, you will lose them sir.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: Should a instructor practice during class ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moonkloud View Post
    Ok when i was in 3rd grade doing math i dont recall my teacher at her desk doing math too.
    I'm sorry to herar that. When I was in third grade my teacher did problems on the board to show us how to do them. Then we had to get up and show her how we did them on the board. Even on the completely mental function of doing Math problems My teachers interacted with me.

    My worst Medical school instructors merely told me what to do. My best instructors verbally taught , but they also modeled and interacted both with me and my patients.

    Jeff

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moonkloud View Post
    Ok when i was in 3rd grade doing math i dont recall my teacher at her desk doing math too.
    I, in every single class I have get hands on with everyone there. No exceptions. One can not lead by example if they can't be proficient themselves. It's easy to stand & bark orders vs. getting involved with the students & sharing some sweat with them.

    At present time I have only a few students but any one of them would tell you I move with them in every class.


    I'm sorry if your instructor doesn't get on the mat with you. Good luck in your training.

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    Default Re: Should a instructor practice during class ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jfarnsworth View Post
    I, in every single class I have get hands on with everyone there. No exceptions. One can not lead by example if they can't be proficient themselves. It's easy to stand & bark orders vs. getting involved with the students & sharing some sweat with them.

    At present time I have only a few students but any one of them would tell you I move with them in every class.


    I'm sorry if your instructor doesn't get on the mat with you. Good luck in your training.
    Perhaps sir, his point-of-view is schewed by the circumstances in which he received his black belt in Kenpo.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: Should a instructor practice during class ?

    My very first job out of college was a broadcast engineer for very popular pair of radio stations. I was experienced from jobs I worked in college, but this job involved a lot of elements that I was not used to...working around hazardous voltages, tower inspections, RF radiation readings, etc. When I interviewed, I wanted the job so badly...but I was also concerned about my safety. I had this terrifying image of being asked to climb a 1500 foot tower....at night....because a beacon went out. My boss assured me that no one there had to do that...they hired special electricians to do that job. He put my worries aside by saying "We will never ask you do do anything we wouldn't do ourselves." That gave me the confidence to take the job (and do well).

    My Kenpo teacher always got his hands dirty. He sweated out calisthenics with the rest of us. He toughed out the "fun runs" with the rest of us. He demonstrated. He instructed. He practiced. He helped. He got in technique lines with the rest of us. He got in the suicide circles with the rest of us. He hit us, we hit him, He was my uke for my first belt test. I felt like he gave me the same confidence that my first boss gave me when I was venturing in to different waters.

    An instructor that practiced in class made a difference to me.

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    Default Re: Should a instructor practice during class ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carol Kaur View Post
    My very first job out of college was a broadcast engineer for very popular pair of radio stations. I was experienced from jobs I worked in college, but this job involved a lot of elements that I was not used to...working around hazardous voltages, tower inspections, RF radiation readings, etc. When I interviewed, I wanted the job so badly...but I was also concerned about my safety. I had this terrifying image of being asked to climb a 1500 foot tower....at night....because a beacon went out. My boss assured me that no one there had to do that...they hired special electricians to do that job. He put my worries aside by saying "We will never ask you do do anything we wouldn't do ourselves." That gave me the confidence to take the job (and do well).

    My Kenpo teacher always got his hands dirty. He sweated out calisthenics with the rest of us. He toughed out the "fun runs" with the rest of us. He demonstrated. He instructed. He practiced. He helped. He got in technique lines with the rest of us. He got in the suicide circles with the rest of us. He hit us, we hit him, He was my uke for my first belt test. I felt like he gave me the same confidence that my first boss gave me when I was venturing in to different waters.

    An instructor that practiced in class made a difference to me.
    Bet he wasn't a "video" black belt.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


    www.MSUACF.com

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    Default Re: Should a instructor practice during class ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Bet he wasn't a "video" black belt.
    Absolutely not sir. He started at the school as a white belt and worked his way up.

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    Default Re: Should a instructor practice during class ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moonkloud View Post
    Ok when i was in 3rd grade doing math i dont recall my teacher at her desk doing math too.

    It comes down to am i here to train me or train you.

    If i train myself, the student would get less attention based on the attention to detail anyone can pay.

    If i focus on the student then i can help them more..
    but dont get to play at that time.

    Yet i understand a student can use an example so it would appear the answer to this question is all 3, you , the student and you and the student.

    A question is no good without an example.

    I have 12 kids from age 7-12 lined up in front of me. They all know their basics but lots need individual help. So would it be better to just get up in front of them and go though the basics with them. Or have another student lead them though the basics while i walk around and jump in some help where ever its needed. Fix a low kick or show a kid their bad NB.

    I have a assistant and would like to know how to best get everyone the attention they need without having a smaller class and making sure at the end of class when parents come to pick their kids up or watch class that the parent feels their kid is getting the attention they need.

    I also understand breaking the group in two is a option. But that requires too much of my assistant at this time.

    I also understand that a beginner class of kids is one thing and working with my adult advanced group is different.

    How do other classes deal with these issues ?

    Thank You
    Students learn as much by example as by lecture and Drill Instruction. Class of kids? Yeah. I can see not working on your own stuff in a technique line. But with an adult class? I make sure every student feels the technique in trade with me, and that I feel it from every student, THROUGHOUT the class. It's the only way they know what they are aiming for in terms of intensity and effect.

    This also means ... if I have 10 students, each one of them will do it on me at least half a dozen times with me nagging at them to make improvements as we go (only way I can really know if they are doing it right is if they can make it work on my fat butt)...that's 60 times I'm on the recieving end, and 60 times I get to practice the attack.

    I get to practice knife attacks, gripping skills, armlocks, headlocks, punches (even when I'm just feeding someone a punch...am I telegraphing? Am I using directional harmony? is my stance and footwork properly supporting my forward advance? Is my posture correct for my own mechanics?)...all kinds of good stuff.

    I also am a firm believer in "the physical transmission of information". Spent better than 15 years in kenpo before I finally was on the business end of a technique by Mr. Parker...one I had already been doing for many years, under very competent instructors, mind you. Major light bulbs went off in my brain, screaming "Ooohhh.. So THAT'S how it's done." So, if we don't trade with our students, where are they to get that from?

    They learn what it looks like to train properly by being on the mat with us while we train. Simple, really.

    Good topic, though.

    D.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: Should a instructor practice during class ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    Students learn as much by example as by lecture and Drill Instruction. Class of kids? Yeah. I can see not working on your own stuff in a technique line. But with an adult class? I make sure every student feels the technique in trade with me, and that I feel it from every student, THROUGHOUT the class. It's the only way they know what they are aiming for in terms of intensity and effect.

    This also means ... if I have 10 students, each one of them will do it on me at least half a dozen times with me nagging at them to make improvements as we go (only way I can really know if they are doing it right is if they can make it work on my fat butt)...that's 60 times I'm on the recieving end, and 60 times I get to practice the attack.

    I get to practice knife attacks, gripping skills, armlocks, headlocks, punches (even when I'm just feeding someone a punch...am I telegraphing? Am I using directional harmony? is my stance and footwork properly supporting my forward advance? Is my posture correct for my own mechanics?)...all kinds of good stuff.

    I also am a firm believer in "the physical transmission of information". Spent better than 15 years in kenpo before I finally was on the business end of a technique by Mr. Parker...one I had already been doing for many years, under very competent instructors, mind you. Major light bulbs went off in my brain, screaming "Ooohhh.. So THAT'S how it's done." So, if we don't trade with our students, where are they to get that from?

    They learn what it looks like to train properly by being on the mat with us while we train. Simple, really.

    Good topic, though.

    D.
    Another ugly issue raises its head; Video black belts teaching and awarding rank.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


    www.MSUACF.com

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    Default Re: Should a instructor practice during class ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Another ugly issue raises its head; Video black belts teaching and awarding rank.
    Doc, you're scaring me!

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    Angry Re: Should a instructor practice during class ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Bet he wasn't a "video" black belt.
    Nothing like attempting to degrade someone elses accomplishments to make yours seem more improtant. Do you have a big spots car too?

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    Default Re: Should a instructor practice during class ?

    Quote Originally Posted by sjansen View Post
    Nothing like attempting to degrade someone elses accomplishments to make yours seem more improtant. Do you have a big spots car too?
    Doc doesn't need to be 'more important.' He has done more for Kenpo than most ever will. If he wanted to be "important" he'd sell videos, have a subscription video service, have books, sell his course books, sell affiliations and belts, and generally prostitute the science for a buck. That's not him.

    He's calls them like he sees them--no sugarcoating. He never does it to belittle others or to make himself feel better, rather it is because this field of learning has serious consequences if you don't know what you're doing. And if your teaching someone, you're taking their money and giving them information which could lead to serious injury or death. I personally see no reason to suffer fools gladly either.

    The bottom line here is 1) I think most reading this thread raised an eyebrow when the post seemed to imply that instructors shouldn't interact with students thus denying them another viewpoint and tactile input from an advanced student and 2) in physical endeavors, you can hardly be pedestrian, let alone elite, through video alone.

    If everyone could become Larry Tatum by watching his vidoes, why does he still do seminars and have a school?
    A little learning is a dangerous thing;
    drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
    there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
    and drinking largely sobers us again. --Alexander Pope

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    Default Re: Should a instructor practice during class ?

    Quote Originally Posted by sjansen View Post
    Nothing like attempting to degrade someone elses accomplishments to make yours seem more improtant. Do you have a big spots car too?
    Clearly you don't know Doc.

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    Default Re: Should a instructor practice during class ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Another ugly issue raises its head; Video black belts teaching and awarding rank.
    I've got black belts in two traditional styles, however my black belt with the IKCA was through video testing supplemented by private lessons. I believe that puts me in this category as well.
    ~ Steve Zalazowski
    Continuing Student of the Arts.

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    Default Re: Should a instructor practice during class ?

    [quote=
    If everyone could become Larry Tatum by watching his vidoes, why does he still do seminars and have a school?[/quote]

    With all due respect to you and your Instructor, you clearly do NOT understand IKCA Kenpo and the testing process...
    No one is going to get good at anything by just WATCHING;
    you must have Live training partners to bang with and you must have someone critiquing your tests with enough passion for the Art, that they will inform you as to what you did wrong/right and how to improve your skills!
    I have been trained by both methods and in my opinion, the IKCA is second to none...all the Principles and Concepts are there; just a different set of "Stories" on delivering them to the student.
    There are many in distant locations, that would not be able to train period, without this program!

    Btw, Mr. Sullivan & Mr. LeRoux also have Seminars/Schools and teach Live as well...

    I believe you will find great Kenpoist's in all the different association's, regardless of training methods; much depends on the practitioner...

    Just like anything in life, there's always going to be different levels of practitioners; some are just naturally great and will excell regardless, others are only going to be so good, due to physical/mental reasons etc. regardless of instruction...

    I understand your thought on keeping the Kenpo Standards to a high degree...But, I see many that train under Live instruction daily that some would say are sub-par!

    Just my thoughts, Andrew C.

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    Default Re: Should a instructor practice during class ?

    Quote Originally Posted by AMC KARATE View Post
    With all due respect to you and your Instructor, you clearly do NOT understand IKCA Kenpo and the testing process...
    No one is going to get good at anything by just WATCHING;
    you must have Live training partners to bang with and you must have someone critiquing your tests with enough passion for the Art, that they will inform you as to what you did wrong/right and how to improve your skills!
    I have been trained by both methods and in my opinion, the IKCA is second to none...all the Principles and Concepts are there; just a different set of "Stories" on delivering them to the student.
    There are many in distant locations, that would not be able to train period, without this program!

    Btw, Mr. Sullivan & Mr. LeRoux also have Seminars/Schools and teach Live as well...

    I believe you will find great Kenpoist's in all the different association's, regardless of training methods; much depends on the practitioner...

    Just like anything in life, there's always going to be different levels of practitioners; some are just naturally great and will excell regardless, others are only going to be so good, due to physical/mental reasons etc. regardless of instruction...

    I understand your thought on keeping the Kenpo Standards to a high degree...But, I see many that train under Live instruction daily that some would say are sub-par!

    Just my thoughts, Andrew C.
    No one said anything about the IKCA. You made the inference; I did not imply it. The example was the illustrate the overall shortcomings of learning by video.

    BTW I respect Steve a lot. He's a good guy.
    A little learning is a dangerous thing;
    drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
    there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
    and drinking largely sobers us again. --Alexander Pope

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    Default Re: Should a instructor practice during class ?

    Quote Originally Posted by AMC KARATE View Post
    With all due respect to you and your Instructor, you clearly do NOT understand IKCA Kenpo and the testing process...
    No one is going to get good at anything by just WATCHING;
    you must have Live training partners to bang with and you must have someone critiquing your tests with enough passion for the Art, that they will inform you as to what you did wrong/right and how to improve your skills!
    I have been trained by both methods and in my opinion, the IKCA is second to none...all the Principles and Concepts are there; just a different set of "Stories" on delivering them to the student.
    There are many in distant locations, that would not be able to train period, without this program!

    Btw, Mr. Sullivan & Mr. LeRoux also have Seminars/Schools and teach Live as well...

    I believe you will find great Kenpoist's in all the different association's, regardless of training methods; much depends on the practitioner...

    Just like anything in life, there's always going to be different levels of practitioners; some are just naturally great and will excell regardless, others are only going to be so good, due to physical/mental reasons etc. regardless of instruction...

    I understand your thought on keeping the Kenpo Standards to a high degree...But, I see many that train under Live instruction daily that some would say are sub-par!

    Just my thoughts, Andrew C.
    Regarding the part in bold, I have to agree. I see "seniors" who were promoted to lofty ranks by Mr. Parker who simply blow. I meet folks all the damn time from various kenpo lineages, most of whom can't move for beans.

    Before this whole thing blows up, I would simply reiterate the idea that we can all only view the world form our perspective. And depending on where we view it from, it all looks different. One of my personal kvetches about kenpo is the "too much red" syndrome, where folks don't ferment with their material long enough. Know a 2nd bucking for third, and will be allowed to test -- and prolly pass -- just cuz the minimum time requirement has passed, and the check clears. Ain't been on the mat for those years, but stayed active (showing up for seminars, tourneys, etc.).

    I contrast that to one of Docs students, Bode, who has recently put more time on the mat as a particular rank in SL4 than most kenpoists do in their whole journey to 1st black. To a 2nd brown I adopted form another lineage a year ago; she's still a 2nd brown (me working with her on her basics), and people she was in line with are testing for their 2nd blacks in Jan/Feb. WTF? And that's a "brick & mortar" school. Moreover, the basics there blow, cuz the time was never taken by anybody to attend to the details that matter. But hey: They got a direct lineage claim to the old man via a prominent figure, so they're covered, ya? I just keep thinking: God forbid someone with even a little training actually goes after them with something sharp.

    I feel a duty to my students, to make sure they don't just live through an attack, but domonate it; and to my instructors, to properly represent their legacy by ensuring that my students are top notch owners of the material in the system. Mr. Parker really did have different sets of standards. Evidenced by this simple observation: Has anybody ever heard of him failing anyone on a public testing panel? If 20 people tested, 20 people got promoted. He would say the failure in performance sandards was their immediate instructors fault...how does he fail a testee and pants the prof for doing a bad job without estranging a large body of dues-paying customers? He couldn't. So he didn't.

    BUT!!!! If you were one of the people that got to the house for training? Different set of rules. Different information base. Different regard by Mr. P when he looks at your waist to see what you're wearing, and when/where you got it. Stern, potentially volatile father figure...do you wanna be the guy who trains under his supervision, but gets bumped up another stripe by someobody else, and wears it in front of him? Naw. You fate into that fold, you adopt the more stringent standards. You wear what he tells you, and not until he tells you. And you will move differently in that time with him than you ever did before him. By contrast, every thing else starts looking pale in comparison. It's hard not to be a hater when you have seen what's possible, then compare it to what is.

    We used to have this "grade point average" joke in med school: You know what they call you after graduation of you get an A? Doctor. You know what they call you if you get a C? Doctor. BUT!!! Who likely knows the material bettter...valedictorian candidates, or guys who barely eeked by at the 70th percentile? You know what they call someone with a black belt from a non-stringent school? Sir. You know what they call a guy with a black belt from thousands of intimate hours on the mat with a senior? Sir. It's hard to look back and remember fighting for rank through broken bones and bloody lips, to see someone else wearing that same rank who merely showed up and can barely move, much less fight. It's not their fault, but it's still hard. It's hard for guys who have seen/heard/felt the thunder of the old man, and worked our asses off to move the same way, to see guys wearing ranks equal to what ours were at the time moving nothing like what kenpo used to look like under his tutelage. Can you imagine being a Doc, a Dennnis, a Rich, or to a lesser extent a Me, seeing guys wearing the same ranks we wore while hanging with Mr. P., but moving like newbies? Or worse yet, justifying it with poorly informed kenpospeak?

    There are those in kenpo who set different standards. It's just a different perspective. I'm trying to learn not to be a hater, but rather to live in gratitude for the awesome opportunities I've been provided. Albeit, easier said than done sometimes. But I'm trying. The old school is dying off...every couple months, I hear of or read about another old timer slipping off the plate. I know some of us just wanna see the New School raise the bar a little. That's all. Some do, some are, more will I'm sure. I just pray it's enough to prevent solid, banging, hard core kenpo from going the way of the dinosaurs.

    Be good to each other & train hard,

    D.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

  28. The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to Dr. Dave in da house For This Useful Post:

    AMC KARATE (12-11-2008),bdparsons (12-10-2008),Black St1300 (12-10-2008),Carol (12-11-2008),Doc (12-10-2008),IWishToLearn (12-10-2008),J Ellis (12-10-2008),Kenpodoc (12-10-2008),Mac (12-11-2008),MarkC (12-11-2008),Rob Broad (12-10-2008),TigerCraneGuy (12-10-2008)

  29. #19
    AMC KARATE is offline
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    Default Re: Should a instructor practice during class ?

    To me it was implied that all Video Programs and there Black Belts were second rate Kenpoist's!
    Also that we train by Watching Videos!

    Very STEREOTYPING, in my opinion...

    If this was not what was intended in your post's, I appoligize!
    Your Bro' in Kenpo, Andrew C.

  30. #20
    Drew is offline
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    Default Re: Should a instructor practice during class ?

    Quote Originally Posted by AMC KARATE View Post
    To me it was implied that all Video Programs and there Black Belts were second rate Kenpoist's!
    Also that we train by Watching Videos!

    Very STEREOTYPING, in my opinion...

    If this was not what was intended in your post's, I appoligize!
    Your Bro' in Kenpo, Andrew C.
    Frankly, I haven't been on the mat with enough IKCA guys to have an opinion of the overall quality the program churns out. But in the interest of full disclosure, I find all video programs suspect. I do think there is probably a subset of the Kenpo population out there that could become very good through a distance learning program.

    But these people probably represent less than 1% of all the students out there. (I base that on my own observations and not on any objective data I have access to.) The thing is these people that are willing to spend hours and hours on the material, are self-directed enough to follow through on their studies, smart enough to understand what they are taught, and have the physical attributes necessary to be successful are almost certainly already successful martial artists at a school somewhere else. They have the skill sets that would allow them to excel anywhere. So as successful individuals it is unlikely these people are looking to train elsewhere. In fact, these are the people that most likely go on to be the next Chows, Parkers, Lees, Emperados, etc.

    In my estimation, the only people for whom distance learning would be a appropriate is a seasoned black belt that needs to fill in 'holes' in their understanding of their respective system. I do think that people need a minimum level of competence before they could undertake such study, and I think few would ultimately be successful even in a good program.
    A little learning is a dangerous thing;
    drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
    there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
    and drinking largely sobers us again. --Alexander Pope

  31. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Drew For This Useful Post:

    IWishToLearn (12-10-2008),Kenpodoc (12-10-2008)

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