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Thread: Origin of Motion

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    Default Origin of Motion

    When you move, where does the movement originate? Why?

    I use the Chinese method of starting all movement from the tantien, useing the small mscles in the lower back as the first muscle groupe to move. This causes the entire body to move as a unified whole, or as one coordinated unit. However, I know others who say they have tantien focus, but originate movement at the hips. Still others start with the feet.

    As I'm basically starting to learn to move all over again, I thought I'd ask for some input as to what works for different people and different systems.

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    Default Re: Origin of Motion

    Mine starts in my head. In my head, it's allllll over.

    I have exploded into action and vanquished my enemies.

    In my head, I'm undefeated.

    It's lovely in my head.

    --Amy
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    Default Re: Origin of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong
    Mine starts in my head. In my head, it's allllll over.

    I have exploded into action and vanquished my enemies.

    In my head, I'm undefeated.

    It's lovely in my head.

    --Amy
    You too, huh?

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    Default Re: Origin of Motion

    Thanks, gals. But I'm out of my mind.
    I maybe should have said "where does physical motion start?"

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    Default Re: Origin of Motion

    OOOOOOOHHHHHH,

    Physical motion. Well, that's a whole different story!

    I'd have to say it originates from the ground. Before I can have motion, I need the energy for the motion and that comes from the center of the planet.

    Other than that, I can't say I've thought about it.

    I was not all in jest when I said it was in my head though. If you can picture the action happening as you would like it, then it's more likely to happen as you want it to.

    --Amy
    The New Kenpo Continuum Book is now accepting submissions for volume 2. Our fabulous, ever-changing website is Sacramento Kenpo Karate.
    I'm a member of the Universal Life Church and the ULC Seminary. I'm also a Sacramento Wedding Minister and Disc Jockey
    New Cool (free) kenpo tool bar: http://KenpoKarate.OurToolbar.com/


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    Default Re: Origin of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong
    OOOOOOOHHHHHH,

    If you can picture the action happening as you would like it, then it's more likely to happen as you want it to.

    --Amy
    I agree 100%
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


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    Default Re: Origin of Motion

    Brain
    The above is just my opinion.

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    Default Re: Origin of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong
    I'd have to say it originates from the ground. Before I can have motion, I need the energy for the motion and that comes from the center of the planet.
    OK. This sounds like rooting, which requires movement from the small muscles of the back. Unfortunately, it also inhibits the 50/50 weighting of Kenpo. And therein lies my problem.

    Being as I'm allways dizzier than a pet snake, I feel more like a Drunken Boxer than a Kenpoist when I move like this. So I am looking for input from others as to different methods.

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    Default Re: Origin of Motion

    aside from movement starting as a thought, you need to look at what causes us to move; gravity.
    Any movement you make is your body's attempt at fighting against or working with gravity.....standing up-against, sitting down-working with.

    Growing up we learn to balance our bodies to work in harmony with it. If you look at a baby beginning to walk....the biggest obstacle they have is learning to use their counter-balance, which is their head.

    if you stand in a position with your feet supporting an equal amount of your weight, try walking, without moving your head first. You cant do it. If you want to test it....stand in front of a full length mirror and draw a straight line down the middle, align the centre of your body with the line and then take a step forward.......you will find that your body moves off centre in order to acheive a controlled falling process, and the point that fall originates is your head as it moves away from your balanced centre.

    i dont believe that someone should be "rooted" when doing anything in the martial arts.
    Power is not generated by remaining stationary. If you want to see just how much power you have walking, close your eyes and face a wall, and start walking towards it until you bump into it.
    Proper power is acheived when the upper body is correctly connected to the lower body creating harmonious balance through the transferrance of energy.....not chi or ki, but the energy of movement.

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    Default Re: Origin of Motion

    It all starts in the shoulder, you may add and subtract a base. You may not even use your legs as a base if you are leaning on something or on your back. Shoulder it is!
    Sean

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    Default Re: Origin of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcatbonz
    if you stand in a position with your feet supporting an equal amount of your weight, try walking, without moving your head first. You cant do it. If you want to test it....stand in front of a full length mirror and draw a straight line down the middle, align the centre of your body with the line and then take a step forward.......you will find that your body moves off centre in order to acheive a controlled falling process, and the point that fall originates is your head as it moves away from your balanced centre.



    i dont believe that someone should be "rooted" when doing anything in the martial arts. Power is not generated by remaining stationary. ... Proper power is acheived when the upper body is correctly connected to the lower body creating harmonious balance through the transferrance of energy.....not chi or ki, but the energy of movement.


    In many CMA systems, true or pure rooting requires constant, unending motion. It is one of those terms that causes a lot of confusion, as it is defined differently by different systems. Also, in these systems, the core moves first and the body, including the head, moves with it. Centerline moves, but is constant with respect to your body. And most of the time they turn on their heel. They say we "float" when we move on the balls of our feet- another term that causes confusion. In the past, I found this method to be more effective, my body more unified as I moved, even though I didn't practice a pure form of "internal" motion.



    Your point about the head as a counterballance is helpful. That is what spins the worst for me, so I'm not too sure about leading with it. But the perspective should help me deal with the problem of moving effectively. Thank you for the input.

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    Default Re: Origin of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger
    It all starts in the shoulder, you may add and subtract a base. You may not even use your legs as a base if you are leaning on something or on your back. Shoulder it is!
    Sean
    Interesting. So you move more like a boxer? Now you mention it, I believe the BKF moves a lot like that.

    I just tried a little shadow boxing useing my shoulders as the lead. It wasn't too bad. Even with kicks. They tended to be slower, but set up well. And I can see where the shoulder motion could be a feignt, or the kick flow naturally off another move. I did notice that my guard had to be in a little more, especially the lead hand, and structure changed slightly.

    I'll play around with this. Any other tips or suggestions ...?

    Thanks.

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    Default Re: Origin of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    In many CMA systems, true or pure rooting requires constant, unending motion. It is one of those terms that causes a lot of confusion, as it is defined differently by different systems. Also, in these systems, the core moves first and the body, including the head, moves with it. Centerline moves, but is constant with respect to your body. And most of the time they turn on their heel. They say we "float" when we move on the balls of our feet- another term that causes confusion. In the past, I found this method to be more effective, my body more unified as I moved, even though I didn't practice a pure form of "internal" motion.



    Your point about the head as a counterballance is helpful. That is what spins the worst for me, so I'm not too sure about leading with it. But the perspective should help me deal with the problem of moving effectively. Thank you for the input.
    understanding the head as counterbalance does not mean you have to lead with it......quite the contrary. in natural walking, the head could be considered the origin of movement because of the need to off balance the body in order to start the controlled "fall".
    so what can we do to get rid of this telegraphing motion that can indicate your direction?
    if, instead of the head breaking the body's balance, you use a push off with one of your legs.
    so, using our mirror trick again, to move right, we push off with our left foot as if we were skating......this reduces any telegraphing.....and you can almost make your intent to move invisible.
    then you could move on to using a head movement to fake someone into thinking you were moving one way and quickly move in the opposite direction.
    dont take my word for any of this though.
    sometimes things sound to weird to be acceptable, you have to make careful observations in order to understand.

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    Default Re: Origin of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcatbonz
    ... if, instead of the head breaking the body's balance, you use a push off with one of your legs.
    so, using our mirror trick again, to move right, we push off with our left foot as if we were skating......this reduces any telegraphing.....and you can almost make your intent to move invisible.

    dont take my word for any of this though. sometimes things sound to weird to be acceptable, you have to make careful observations in order to understand.
    You are getting close to the meaning of rooting here. The internal CMAist would first fill, or weight, the left, then step with the right. We push drag by unweighting the right and pushing off with the left. The difference is subtle, but very important in both motion and power generation.

    Another interesting thing about your "head as a counterweight" point; I've been reworking the first four yellow techs. with the shoulder lead, as KenpoChanger mentioned. There are a few interesting effects, and problems, that I havn't worked enough yet to comment on. One of them is that leading with the shoulder brings the head forward into his target range. But I do seem to have better power and ballance moving the head when leading with the shoulder. Just an interesting sidelight- give me another 1/2 hr and I'll probably change my mind...

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    Default Re: Origin of Motion

    in your first post you asked, "When you move, where does the movement originate? Why?"

    whether you lead with your shoulder, your tan tien, your hips, or knees.......the one thing that remains constant is the fact that moving is a falling process.
    you need to look at the most efficient way of moving and still keep your upper and lower body connected for efficient transfer of energy.
    personally, i would forget the whole "rooting" thing because it does not accurately represent what should be happening during motion.
    the symbiosis of balance-counterbalance, are the 2 important features for efficient movement.

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    Default Re: Origin of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcatbonz
    whether you lead with your shoulder, your tan tien, your hips, or knees.......the one thing that remains constant is the fact that moving is a falling process.
    That is certainly true for me these days!

    you need to look at the most efficient way of moving and still keep your upper and lower body connected for efficient transfer of energy. ... the symbiosis of balance-counterbalance, are the 2 important features for efficient movement.
    That's what I'm trying to work on. Thanks for your help. I've been monitoring this while doing a light workout, and it has sped things along. Whether I change completely or not (needs more work), I allways enjoy a new perspective.

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    Default Re: Origin of Motion

    Well, I've worked with this a little more. I pretty much come back to what I knew before. I am still more stable moving from my core (tantien). However, center focus with a shoulder emphasis adds more "body english", which at times is a little better- and has some interesting side effects. The head moves off line better (bob-n-weave) and you can come in at some interesting angles with your strikes. And, as the english adds just a little torque, I do feel a little more stable.

    Just leading with the shoulder, though, gives a severe disconnect between the upper and lower body. It also feels like I'm giving a little too much commitment (structure, ballance and momentum) to my opponent.

    As for every move being an act of falling (my dizziness aside), I'm having a little trouble understanding the analogy. It is probably just as simple as having Marriage of Gravity in each move, or maintaining ballance. But I do tend to read too much into things. When I look at motion in terms of physical force, I would tend to vector the forces involved- gravity being only one component. That sounds a little like your model- "... Any movement you make is your body's attempt at fighting against or working with gravity.....standing up-against, sitting down-working with.
    ...you need to look at the most efficient way of moving and still keep your upper and lower body connected for efficient transfer of energy."
    Right track, or making too much out of it. Or, I suppose, I could be just flat out wrong.

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    Default Re: Origin of Motion

    Just so ya know where I'm comming from, while I feel shoulder guides the body the shoulder is its self guided by the anchoring of the elbow (accomplished with your hooking inwards) and the positioning of your hands. In short, the distal guides the proximal. There an Old Kenpoist that used to say that the art starts at your fingertips (Barry Redshaw).
    Sean

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    Default Re: Origin of Motion

    i'd have to disagree with distal guiding the proximal.
    if you were to suspend yourself from your hips; like one of those things someone uses when practicing trampoline or trapeze, and try throwing a punch.......the only thing that will happen is weak disconnected motion.

    as for movement being a falling process......try this, take a step forward, but dont let your leading foot touch the ground.......what happens to you? what starts heading towards the ground?
    try sitting in a chair and having a training partner put their hand on your head and then try to stand up.

    you want to give your opponent the least amount of info to determine your movement.......the less body movement, the better.

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    Default Re: Origin of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcatbonz
    as for movement being a falling process......try this, take a step forward, but dont let your leading foot touch the ground.......what happens to you? what starts heading towards the ground? you want to give your opponent the least amount of info to determine your movement.......the less body movement, the better.
    Agree about the body movement.

    But in steping forward, whether my foot goes to ground depends on how much commitment I put into the move. If I first cat, or post (fill), I can fully extend my leg and hold my foot any distance above the ground (when not too dizzy). Add a little forward weight transfer or momentum and it is a step, but in ballance and able to change. Add a lot of forward motion and I am more commited to the step- possibly overcommited. Would this describe, or at least fit into your model?

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