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Thread: Kenpo and NHB, UFC, Pride etc

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    Default Kenpo and NHB, UFC, Pride etc

    While reading an interesting article the cobwebs of my brain started to rattle. Hypothetically speaking, if SGM Mr. Ed Parker was still alive and he was to purely train a fighter for this arena of combat sport, how do you think that fighter would favour? Would he be able to combat against a gracie on the ground? a shootfighter etc. I know this is a very WHAT IF? I live in the arena of fantasy.
    "Say hello to Susan"
    -SGM Ed Parker

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    Default Re: Kenpo and NHB, UFC, Pride etc

    some of the great shootfighters did indeed study kenpo.
    i think that if he was still alive he would understand the need of being a rounded fighter that had varying skill sets and would adapt accordingly.

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    Default Re: Kenpo and NHB, UFC, Pride etc

    If ALL he trained was Kenpo honestly, I don't think he'd stand a chance in MMA. I do, however think knowing Kenpo would be of great benefit to an MMA fighter...my instructor fights MMA and says his Kenpo knowledge comes in very hady, the punch blocks and such...but after it hits the mat, it's all JiuJitsu.
    Last edited by WristTwist; 12-10-2005 at 08:27 PM.



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    Default Re: Kenpo and NHB, UFC, Pride etc

    Quote Originally Posted by WristTwist
    If ALL he trained was Kenpo honestly, I don't think he'd stand a chance in MMA. I do, however think knowing Kenpo would be of great benefit to an MMA fighter...my instructor fights MMA and says his Kenpo knowledge comes in very hady, the punch blocks and such...but after it hits the mat, it's all JiuJitsu.
    The reason I posted the question was because I read an article by Al Tracy which says to quote

    Quote Originally Posted by The Origin of American Kenpo
    http://www.sanjosekenpo.com./origin_...ican_kenpo.htm

    "This was in marked contrast to his original System of Kenpo, where a student was taught hundreds of "techniques" and hundreds of variations--over 400 for first degree black belt alone. This was the system Ed no longer wanted to teach. It was the old way, the past, and breaking from this past was the very reason for the existence of the new American Kenpo. But it saddened Ed that few students of his new style were able to compete successfully with the old system in tournaments. It would have been even more disappointing to Ed to see the dismal record of American Kenpo in the new Ultimate and Extreme Fighting forms."



    From what I have learnt about Mr. Parker, He tailored most of the technique to the individual he was teaching. Something he taught to students on the east coast differed from the things he taught people on the West. Mr Parker was a genious and if he was able to grow and further Kenpo and tailor more technique for the octagon I don't beleive Kenpo would have a dismal record in the ring. It would evolve for that person to be used in the ring.

    "Say hello to Susan"
    -SGM Ed Parker

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    Default Re: Kenpo and NHB, UFC, Pride etc

    i think you have to ask yourself.....what is american kenpo?
    what is or was it designed to do?
    if you completely change the approach to fight a different way, is it still american kenpo?

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    Default Re: Kenpo and NHB, UFC, Pride etc

    Very true. Is it the science of motion and analytical physical perspectives that make kenpo what it is or is the the techniques/forms/basics, performed as handed down through instruction. Or maybe both?
    "Say hello to Susan"
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    Default Re: Kenpo and NHB, UFC, Pride etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Casey_Sutherland
    While reading an interesting article the cobwebs of my brain started to rattle. Hypothetically speaking, if SGM Mr. Ed Parker was still alive and he was to purely train a fighter for this arena of combat sport, how do you think that fighter would favour? Would he be able to combat against a gracie on the ground? a shootfighter etc. I know this is a very WHAT IF? I live in the arena of fantasy.
    While Kenpo is devastating standing, and yes, certain applications can be applied while on the ground, keep in mind that just being a stand up fighter, with no understanding of the ground, is going to make it very hard for that stand up fighter to survive in a MMA setting.

    We have all of the Ram techniques, etc. etc. but IMHO it is also very important to test so to speak, these techniques against a grappler. Cross training, cross referencing, or whatever you want to call it, the point I'm making is, find a grappler, have them shoot on you, and see if you can make the technique work. Let me say, I am NOT saying that the technique won't work, I'm simply saying that its good to test things on someone that is going to specialize in a given area. Tweaks may need to be made.

    Are we going to always face that trained grappler on the street? Maybe not, but I would think that regardless of how small that risk may be, I'm of the thinking that it just may happen, so why not be prepared for it? Better to know how to defend yourself and never need it, than to need it and find yourself in a world of problems.

    Of course, a Kenpoist being put into a grapplers world is going to already take away a good many things that we can do. The list of "Do not do's" in MMA is longer than my right arm.

    Sorry for the long winded rant. Bottom line...having knowledge of the ground will certainly be a big plus.

    Mike

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    Default Re: Kenpo and NHB, UFC, Pride etc

    i also have to add this.
    i think Mr. Parker developed his series of techniques to teach principles, rather than technique.
    if you were to throw techniques out the window, yet retain the meat of the technique, which would be the principle, and apply that to someone shooting in on you and see how you fare.
    if you stay stuck in a technique mindset.....yes you will have your butt handed to you.

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    Default Re: Kenpo and NHB, UFC, Pride etc

    Just like with fighting, bits and pieces of any art will help...it's all useful fighting knowledge. In the situation of UFC type matches some will be more helpful than others and it also depend on who your fighting and what their strengths are.



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    Default Re: Kenpo and NHB, UFC, Pride etc

    the UFC has become martial arts sport in every sense of the word.
    there are no longer any "real" styles anymore. It truly is mixed martial arts.
    in the first few UFC's you had style against style. this was an attempt by the gracie's to show that jujutsu, and more specifically, Gracie jujutsu, was a superior martial art. this is not to say that other arts did not make a good showing.....but it did show you some holes in their training.
    In the end though, its still contest fighting......it is a "sport", it is not reality.

    American Kenpo, from my perspective is not sport by design, so it would stand to reason that in a sporting event to which it is not suited, it might not fare as well as one that is geared towards it.
    just because someone is good at football, will not make them great at basketball.....both sports have balls, and it requires running from one end to the other, but thats where the similarities end.
    if you put a tall lanky basketball player on a football field, he will most definitely be out of his element, just as a 300 pound offensive lineman would be out of his element on a basketball court; thats not to say that either one of them dont enjoy playing the other sport, but they are not geared for it.
    training for self defense requires a different skill set than MMA's.
    this is a hotly debated topic itself........but i think its true.

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    Default Re: Kenpo and NHB, UFC, Pride etc

    Quote Originally Posted by MJS
    While Kenpo is devastating standing, and yes, certain applications can be applied while on the ground, keep in mind that just being a stand up fighter, with no understanding of the ground, is going to make it very hard for that stand up fighter to survive in a MMA setting.
    Mike
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcatbonz
    i also have to add this.
    i think Mr. Parker developed his series of techniques to teach principles, rather than technique.
    if you stay stuck in a technique mindset.....yes you will have your butt handed to you.
    Definatly. I was taught that most kenpo techniques could be translated to the ground. Tailoring would definatly have to occur to make some work. I think you really need to know various jujitsu concepts to apply some effective groundwork. The principals of kenpo still work but imagine doing certain techniques on your back? It would be crazy
    "Say hello to Susan"
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    Default Re: Kenpo and NHB, UFC, Pride etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Casey_Sutherland
    Definatly. I was taught that most kenpo techniques could be translated to the ground. Tailoring would definatly have to occur to make some work. I think you really need to know various jujitsu concepts to apply some effective groundwork. The principals of kenpo still work but imagine doing certain techniques on your back? It would be crazy
    this is why i say to forget the technique and look at the principle that the technique is teaching you. in the end the technique is not as important as the lesson it is teaching you.

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    Default Re: Kenpo and NHB, UFC, Pride etc

    the UFC has become martial arts sport in every sense of the word.
    there are no longer any "real" styles anymore. It truly is mixed martial arts.
    That's very true. While I personally relate myself with Kenpo, and consider it my primary art, I am truly studying mixed martial arts as the instructor has tweaked his own unique version of Kenpo mixing in JiuJitsu and MuayThai to supplement Kenpo in it's weaknesses, which I find totally cool.

    I have to admit though, it does leave me at a loss regarding the actually history and lineage of what I am learning...not that I find that to be that big of a deal really, but it does loose a certain kinship with any one system history and it's creators or practitioners.



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    Default Re: Kenpo and NHB, UFC, Pride etc

    SGM Parker was no foriegner to the idea of competition. He hosted one of the most prestigous tournaments in the world for many years up until the time of his death. He coached many fighting teams that fought around the world. He was the coach of the Budweiser team in the NASKA circuit. So I am sure he would have given some thought training peopel for such events. Much of the kenpo systems works on the ground it is just not as obvious to the beginner.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Kenpo and NHB, UFC, Pride etc

    Interesting question Mr. Sutherland- I would be willing to bet the Mr parker would make some adjustments because he was a pure innovator.

    I can appreciate the Mixed martial artists out there and the balanced curriculum they utilize but until I see a contest where tearing the eyes, throat, and groin are fair game- I don't think you can judge a Kempo/Kenpo fighter. Seriously a huge amount of our strikes are to these areas.. We have ground techniques but in my opinion the best ground technique (on the street anyway) is to just try to get up again (LOL) because of:

    1. Multiple attackers, kicking me in the head with their biker-boots.
    2. Anybody with a weapon of ANY kind.
    3. The ground itself, glass rocks, curbs etc.
    4. Anything with close-quarters

    One of the guys I train with is a cage-fighter and he spends alot of time with submission and grappling but he is able to do a LOT of strikes on the ground also---

    My .02 cents (currrent market value is roughly .01 cent or .00000001 Euro)
    The above is just my opinion.

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    Default Re: Kenpo and NHB, UFC, Pride etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Dianhsuhe
    Interesting question Mr. Sutherland- I would be willing to bet the Mr parker would make some adjustments because he was a pure innovator.

    I can appreciate the Mixed martial artists out there and the balanced curriculum they utilize but until I see a contest where tearing the eyes, throat, and groin are fair game- I don't think you can judge a Kempo/Kenpo fighter. Seriously a huge amount of our strikes are to these areas.. We have ground techniques but in my opinion the best ground technique (on the street anyway) is to just try to get up again (LOL) because of:

    1. Multiple attackers, kicking me in the head with their biker-boots.
    2. Anybody with a weapon of ANY kind.
    3. The ground itself, glass rocks, curbs etc.
    4. Anything with close-quarters

    One of the guys I train with is a cage-fighter and he spends alot of time with submission and grappling but he is able to do a LOT of strikes on the ground also---

    My .02 cents (currrent market value is roughly .01 cent or .00000001 Euro)

    Very well said.
    "Say hello to Susan"
    -SGM Ed Parker

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    Default Re: Kenpo and NHB, UFC, Pride etc

    Well, the question itself was regarding UFC and such...in those matches there are no weapons, no multiple attackers, no glass and rocks and such...

    Kenpo is a great art, if it wasn't I wouldn't do it, but based on what I know at the point (a lowly blue belt) it seems to be effective but there are holes in it. Besides, in the ring you really don't wanna go gouging eyes and breaking bones or you likely won't be invited back for another fight...kenpo seems to be far more targetting toward standup combat in street situations, not ring situations...not saying none of it would come in handy, cuz I am sure it would...but still...



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    Default Re: Kenpo and NHB, UFC, Pride etc

    Quote Originally Posted by WristTwist
    Well, the question itself was regarding UFC and such...in those matches there are no weapons, no multiple attackers, no glass and rocks and such...

    Kenpo is a great art, if it wasn't I wouldn't do it, but based on what I know at the point (a lowly blue belt) it seems to be effective but there are holes in it. Besides, in the ring you really don't wanna go gouging eyes and breaking bones or you likely won't be invited back for another fight...kenpo seems to be far more targetting toward standup combat in street situations, not ring situations...not saying none of it would come in handy, cuz I am sure it would...but still...
    At Blue Belt you really haven't seen that much especially if your instructor has taken some of the techniques out of the system. An Casey's quaestion was how would a Parker trained fighter fair, I would have to say pretty good, SGM Parker studied Boxing, and Judo as a youth, and then Kenpo form Chow. A lot of the stand up grappling will also work on the ground, a lot fo the styand up grappling will aslo take your opponent to the ground.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Kenpo and NHB, UFC, Pride etc

    Fair point, that was the question, my bad. I can't just a question by the title alone

    I am not aware of what my instructor has pulled out, put in and such, though I am learning as I go. He does say things like "originally it was like this" but he had some experience with body types or people it wouldn't work on so they would work at it until it would work more universally...which I dunno, I see as a good thing.

    Also, any modifications that it has been thru has been done by actual MMA fighters, so the mods would have been done by people that think like that, because thats what they do.

    The only thing that I am aware of that was just flatly removed from the system is the Kata...which I can say I am not really that disappointed about, I will never understand the effectiveness of Kata. Ihave a couple friends that know loads of Kata, but can't fight at all...but thats another debate entirely.

    Perhaps I will revisit my opinion of Kenpo in MMA in another year or two, you are right, I am only a blue belt, which I openly stated in the first place, and I will not claim to know everything by any means, but based on the no hold barred sparring and fighting I have done, I can't say that my Kenpo has done me any good at all at this point...and I am being taught by a no holds barred fighter.



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    Default Re: Kenpo and NHB, UFC, Pride etc

    Oh no! The "Kata" dilemma again...

    Be mindful that Kata are usually taught ALONG with self defense techniques in most systems and they are a way to practice alone, developing- power, stamina, focus, balance and breathing... Worthwhile attributes I would think...

    I do not believe it is my right to remove what I do not like from a system but rather to teach it in its entirety and let each student decide what is useful or not to THEM.

    Ever heard of Mas Oyama?
    The above is just my opinion.

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