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Thread: Kenpo via YouTube...an honest representation?

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    Default Kenpo via YouTube...an honest representation?

    Years ago, I remember a school assignment in which the professor brought up the idea of being "our own worst critic...good or bad". I believe from a business perspective (with no correlation between business and Kenpo), it can be beneficial to identify your own faults before your customer does, enabling you to correct them before they ever become an issue. However, I also feel being supercritical of your own ability can hinder growth and progression.

    In clicking through a multitude of clips on YouTube, keyword Kenpo Karate, you see everything from excellent demonstration, to plausible, to down right nausea.

    I could be wrong here, but I personally feel that the primary reasons people post Kenpo clips for public viewing are for:

    - to demonstrate the system, technique, or principle as they understand it
    - to demonstrate personal ability
    - an educational "how-to"

    Of the roughly 2,300 clips displayed, I'd have to say that 75% of them demonstrate a Kenpo not resemblant of practical application Kenpo. You can search YT under a different query and find the same staggering result. In saying this, I'm referring to the "technique" clips and not the drills, forms, etc. clips.

    I could be wrong, and I welcome your disagreement here, but I cannot blame outsiders for harboring a wrong perspective about the Kenpo systems. This is what we show them our system is about. WE choose to post this for all to see. Mulitiple counter-attacks to a punch that leaves our dummy standing upright. A crap load of sound effects with no apparent physical striking effect. Whirling arms and flailing legs that seem to serve no real purpose. Absent of actual instruction, this is what a layman would expect Kenpo to look like.

    This leads me to wonder: In posting video clips online, our we the cause of our own poor perspective from outsiders?

    I recently saw a clip on YouTube demonstrated by KT's own Dr. Dave Crouch. In the clip he discusses orbits and the strikes contained specifically within the technique 5 Swords. In his, often comedic, comparison of how most execute this technique (choppy, robot-like "HIYA"-like fashion), Dr. Crouch goes on to exhibit something entirely different than posted by majority on the internet; a technique that looks like it works. With proper angles, with torque, with solid base, and with purpose. In using his video as an example, that is what Kenpo is about, but you couldn't surmise that by searching YouTube. His points are the minority, yet, they make the most sense.

    Take any Kenpo technique. Demonstrated properly, your "video dummy" would be left lying in tears. You wouldn't have many friends left to "help" you.

    Why do we show the public a different Kenpo than we study?

    Is the posting of video techniques online beneficial to the perspective of Kenpo to the uneducated public?

    There are some that will claim "a Kenpo technique displayed with it's complete application in it's entirety is too deadly to show." I've seen this, and heard it. Then why show a bastardized version?

    Should we limit our sharing to just forms, drills, and ideas absent of physical application?

    If a technique's physical application is displayed, should we keep it "slo-mo" to isolate the target and weapon?

    I've yet to see a Kenpo technique demonstrated full or even half speed that got me excited. Why? Because it's not believable.

    Most can agree: There is a difference between control in application and acting.

    Are we the sour candy in the mouths of those who seek to understand us?



    My apologies for the rant. Looking forward to your feedback.

    Respectfully,

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    Default Re: Kenpo via YouTube...an honest representation?

    Thank you for your kind words. The video was in response to a question posited on another forum about "chaining"...linking movements in a sequence so that one does not occur without the other. In simple boxers terms, it would be having the cross following the jab out of the starting gate so that it was six to 12 inches behind the jab in contact, rather than thrown as a seperate blow only AFTER the jab has been retracted. In chained sequences, the moves are inextricably connected, such that one will not begin without causing a cascade of automaticity that drags the others along.

    In kenpo, we find Circles of Confluence in the orbits around our bodies as locations that allow us to continue the momentum in a series of attacking blows (remember: Defense stops at the block...or actually, at the evasive foot maneuver. The rest is counter attacking).

    Here is the video in question:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZLw2ShMDrw

    I recieved your PM re- posting it, and was all hep for it, but got waylaid & distracted.

    I am working on a couple with some warm bodies to illustrate some points that have come up via e-mail since this posting, and hope to address some of the issues you mention in your post. Kenpo CAN be demonstrated near balls-out without injuring your training partner, but it does require a hearty demo-dummy to sustain the strike manipulation components that knock him around & rattle his skeletal cage while placing him where you want him. Slow demo can show the palm-heel/rake, then when demonstrating quickly, aim the palm heel at the forehead, so greater speed and contact manipulation can be demonstrated, without the negative side effects of breaking his face and raking his eyes. But, again, it takes a willing uke to have his forehead cracked in the demo with a palm, and a controlled kenpoist who can apply enough force to make the effect obvious, while maintaining control to avoid injury.

    I'll post the links to the next series as soon as I have them up.

    Best Regards,

    Dave
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: Kenpo via YouTube...an honest representation?

    Thank you Sir and looking forward to more clips.

    As for the uke issue, I'd volunteer my body to science (if you provided the ibuprofen) if distance wasn't the issue.

    Thanks again.

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    Default Re: Kenpo via YouTube...an honest representation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roach View Post
    Thank you Sir and looking forward to more clips.

    As for the uke issue, I'd volunteer my body to science (if you provided the ibuprofen) if distance wasn't the issue.

    Thanks again.
    Also known as "kenpo M&M's"
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: Kenpo via YouTube...an honest representation?

    Holy **** that video just rocked!!

    Dammit, I'm on the wrong coast.

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    Default Re: Kenpo via YouTube...an honest representation?

    Okie dokie there.......
    WOW!
    SO many things to hit on in this one post of yours there Roach, I'll try to keep my comments in some semblance of intelligible order -- it'll be a tad difficult though, I'm runnin about 101.6 fever right now. (More on that in another post)

    #1: VERY good post! I hope it generates a TON of conversation! ("Rant" on my man, rant ON!)
    #2: You stated....
    Years ago, I remember a school assignment in which the professor brought up the idea of being "our own worst critic...good or bad". I believe from a business perspective (with no correlation between business and Kenpo), it can be beneficial to identify your own faults before your customer does, enabling you to correct them before they ever become an issue. However, I also feel being supercritical of your own ability can hinder growth and progression.
    I disagree, but only some. Let me explain.
    My philosophy professor gave us a very similar experiment in the "Philosophy Club" ((Yes.....I'm a NERD, it's official, got the blazer badge and everything)) He called it "Devil's Advocate"...which is actually an office held by a cardinal in the Catholic Churches upper echelons. His job is to scrutinize the potential Pope replacements (when the current one is on his way toward 'other appointments') ..........anyway......this guy goes over these other cardinals with a FINE tooth come, their lives, what they've written, reports made on them......he interviews any family members, neighbors from their childhood, their violin instructor....etc., you get the idea. He finds every smallest possible chink in their armor and turns it into a huge encyclical report. Our professor challenged us in the club to alter our journals (one of the parts of being IN the club was keeping a daily journal, and he'd often give the "theme" of the week or at least "theme parameters".) so that we would be our OWN "Devil's Advocate", and scrutinize our every action, word, major thinking patterns and 'real' motive. It wasn't easy.
    We did this for one solid week, then came back together the next "club meeting" and discussed, sharing things from our journals. The next assignment was too be our "Advocate Before the Tribunal of the GODS". In this one, we were to do the same process, with the same daily diligence, but ONLY toward the very positive.
    In the end, they were equally difficult, but equally rewarding, ESPECIALLY in the next phase!!
    This phase was called "Up from the Ashes" (Symbolized by a phoenix) We broke down the devil's advocate week's entries so that we could list the "Ten worst aspects of myself", some had a hard time finding five.... some had a rough time NOT finding fifty (while crying into their cappuccino). Anyway, the assignment was to take the 3 WORST ones, those that we Hated the most, and strive daily to find and ACT ON new ways to reverse them, persistently/Daily. WOW.........this was a life changer for me.

    The next weeks assignment?
    To take the top 5 most EXCELLENT things about ourselves and strive daily find the most innovative and powerful ways to reinforce and accentuate them!!
    This weeks exercise was called "Jacobs ladder".


    LOOOOOONG story short ((too late))....
    Devil's Advocate:
    We found that the process of scrutinizing the various chinks in your own armor was an invaluable process! That IF we were brutally honest, yet mercifully polite, in counting our own flaws.....we begin to find those things that we TRULY desire to change AND the Fuel/motivation to DO IT.

    Advocate before the Tribunal of the GODS:
    (much more fun) We found that we overlook our own positives way too much, for whatever reason, and we discovered that giving due credit to our strengths, with out getting egotistical about it ((pit fall)) we are emboldened in these areas and enthused to create MORE of them AND can be MUCH more effective w/in our given sphere of influence. {{Like a Doctor who's trained as a cardiac specialist, but is ignorant OF his specialty and is trying to be a general practitioner! He could pull it off, but he'd not be NEARLY as effective as he would be IF he knew he was a specialist/Cardiologist.}}

    Up From the Ashes:
    It feels VERY good to strive to right your own wrongs and to believe in yourself enough to attack your problems FULL STEAM AHEAD and DAMN the torpedoes! MOST people reported this phase as a near "spiritual experience". I did.

    Jacob's Ladder:
    GOOD STUFF TOO! It's very empowering to accentuate your strengths!!!!
    Especially when you realize that "Up From the Ashes" tends to give you new ones!

    WOW......
    I'm wordy wordy wordy tonight.....
    I blame the meds!!!

    HOW DOSE THIS APPLY TO THIS THREAD??????
    Glad you asked ((and thank you for staying with me))
    I think that we can take this exact same process:
    1. Identify the flaws.
    2. Identify the strengths.
    3. Reduce/Eliminate the flaws.
    4. Accentuate the strengths.
    ........IN KENPO!!!!
    USE video! Use a mirror! Use the eyes and feedback of Experienced partners (NEVER someone that's NOT as adept as yourself). VIDEO is very very very useful in this way!!! Be FULLY honest and diligent in EACH of the 4 phases!!

    I understand what you're getting at though, Roach. You don't want to let your mind enter into a negative state of self doubt and "fault finding" WHILE in the flow of action! That's Pessimism, and in itself is a terrible "flaw" to be weeded from your mental/emotional garden! That IS self defeating! You'll wind up creating self fulfilling prophecies.

    Be DILLIGENT
    Be HONEST
    Be PERSISTENT
    and have your aim TOWARD perfection.

    Just my thoughts.

    Your Brother (still forcing fluids at 5 in the morning)
    John

    PS: Thanks folks.....
    There'll be a book signing after the show.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    ((if you use "FaceBook", look me up there by name))
    "Striving for success without hard work is like trying to harvest where you haven't planted"
    ~ David Bly

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    Default Re: Kenpo via YouTube...an honest representation?

    Mixed feelings about this, Roach.

    A crap load of sound effects with no apparent physical striking effect. Whirling arms and flailing legs that seem to serve no real purpose. Absent of actual instruction, this is what a layman would expect Kenpo to look like
    The same could be said about most martial art clips. This is not exclusive to Kenpo. Although the layman would be better served by watching clips of the quality of Dr. Dave's, there will ALWAYS be those critical, there will be naysayers - no matter how good our execution is.

    There are good clips and there are bad clips and then there are really atrocious clips. Like I like to say 'the cream rises to the top' ; layman or expert can appreciate this.
    "Fall seven times, stand up eight." Japanese proverb

    "I've seen some cats do some crazy stuff like bending swords with their necks and breaking flaming bricks... thats great and all but can they fight?" *shrugs* Moses Powell

    -Hank Colado

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    Default Re: Kenpo via YouTube...an honest representation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roach View Post
    Take any Kenpo technique. Demonstrated properly, your "video dummy" would be left lying in tears. You wouldn't have many friends left to "help" you.

    Respectfully,
    When you practice in class do you leave your training partner laying on the floor in tears? I doubt it, you have to protct yout partner or you will not many people willing to work with you. So why should this be expected on a video clip. Many people use video clips on their schools website to promote their school, you van't promote your school by hurting people on the web.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Kenpo via YouTube...an honest representation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    When you practice in class do you leave your training partner laying on the floor in tears? I doubt it, you have to protct yout partner or you will not many people willing to work with you. So why should this be expected on a video clip. Many people use video clips on their schools website to promote their school, you van't promote your school by hurting people on the web.
    I agree. I also said "Most can agree: There is a difference between control in application and acting."

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    Default Re: Kenpo via YouTube...an honest representation?

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoHank View Post
    Mixed feelings about this, Roach.

    The same could be said about most martial art clips. This is not exclusive to Kenpo. Although the layman would be better served by watching clips of the quality of Dr. Dave's, there will ALWAYS be those critical, there will be naysayers - no matter how good our execution is.

    There are good clips and there are bad clips and then there are really atrocious clips. Like I like to say 'the cream rises to the top'; layman or expert can appreciate this.
    Sure it could be said about other martial art clips. Those don't concern me. I'm talking about Kenpo because that's what I study.

    I like your analogy. Can the layman tell the difference between cream and rotten milk?

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    Default Re: Kenpo via YouTube...an honest representation?

    For those who are earnestly seeking a good system, there are positive and negative examples on YT for most every system out there. Those who are looking in earnest will become aware of that fact. A search of bullshido.net's boards, you'll find information on many systems that would prove discouraging. They even have a section called "Your martial art sucks" so that people can pick on their own system as well as others.

    My point is, the people who make up their minds about the effectiveness of a system without first stepping foot into a studio/dojo/dojang..etc are not really the type of people I'd find enjoyment training with. I'm okay with them going to a BJJ or MMA school, getting quickly discouraged and leaving. Either they'll give up martial pursuits or, they will find the one that suits them the most. For some, that will be Kenpo. By the time they get around to it, they'll be all the wiser and more apt to learn.


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    Default Re: Kenpo via YouTube...an honest representation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    Also known as "kenpo M&M's"
    As a professional in the pharmaceutical arena, the correct term, Dr., is Kenpo Kandy, or for those Myspace fanatics, kEnPo KAnDy.

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    Default Re: Kenpo via YouTube...an honest representation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roach View Post
    Sure it could be said about other martial art clips. Those don't concern me. I'm talking about Kenpo because that's what I study.

    I like your analogy. Can the layman tell the difference between cream and rotten milk?

    Indeed they can. Hopefully they won't become 'lactose intolerant' because of the rotten milk.
    "Fall seven times, stand up eight." Japanese proverb

    "I've seen some cats do some crazy stuff like bending swords with their necks and breaking flaming bricks... thats great and all but can they fight?" *shrugs* Moses Powell

    -Hank Colado

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    Default Re: Kenpo via YouTube...an honest representation?

    Good stuff Dave. You move more like Mr. Parker than the big name Kenpo guys who promote themselves as the one true disciple. Not only have you had good teachers, you clearly have watched, analyzed and learned. Well back to the starting blocks, perhaps I'll eventually get this stuff.

    Jeff

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    Default Re: Kenpo via YouTube...an honest representation?

    OK. So. I've been thinking about this issue in general because of this post, and have some thoughts. I think the trouble with demonstrating kenpo on clips is based on an adherence to ideal phase executions that don't account for reactions of opponents, either to blows (i.e., kick him in the nads, what's he gonna do?), or to stimulus in general (who among you will stand there with a punch hanging in the air as an opponent whups on you?).

    Take Parting Wings, for example. Why? Because I teach it in the ideal phase for the 1st 5 minutes, then move onto adaptations that are necessary, in my mind, if we're gonna do it balls-out in combat mode. After the wings get parted, the next shot is an inward handsword with the right, and a simultaneous inward palm heel-rake with the left. That handsword, if you practice your kenpo on heavy bags, concentrating on penetrating and moving your target with deep, heavy handed blows, should knock his arse back at least a half step. If he's still standing there in range for your follow-up chop, you hit like a toddler. Which means...you need to include some adaptations in your footwork to chase the guy down AND/WHILE/DURING running him over. The outward handsword...done with only a stance change...is most likely to either strike air, or barely tap him. IF you connected with it with any chutzpah in the blow, his reactions to the blow would again place him out of range for the follow-up thrust punch. So, basically, you gotta chase him down form the moment immediately following the wing part, to the end.

    So, to the dillemma...if we want to show the world "kenpo, in a clip" (in my mind, spoken with the same comical hispanic accent as "pepper...on a stick" by that ventriloquist dude), do we show them ideal phase stuff, or the adaptive battle versions, where we are running the bad guy down as we beat the tar out of him?

    Ideal phase demos require a dummy to not do much, and not go far. Realism requires the kenpoist to sling the bad guy around like a rag doll, chasing as we go, but doesn't reflect the "book" versions of our base techniques. So, in short...should our clips show them what kenpo can do, or what kenpo is? Because they are, visually, very different critters.

    D.
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    Default Re: Kenpo via YouTube...an honest representation?

    Ideal phase demos require a dummy to not do much, and not go far. Realism requires the kenpoist to sling the bad guy around like a rag doll, chasing as we go, but doesn't reflect the "book" versions of our base techniques. So, in short...should our clips show them what kenpo can do, or what kenpo is? Because they are, visually, very different critters.

    Showing what Kenpo can "do" will score your friends a trip to the ER. However, if done in a more informative manner and less in an exhibition-like manner, it would be great. This would also help explain what Kenpo "is" Break it down. Explain cause and effect. Explain motion causes motion. Make it believable and educational. There are some great examples out there doing this. But they're few and far between.

    There's no such thing as bad Kenpo. Only practitioners showing bad examples. Aside from the flailing, slapping, and dance show, are some of these practitioners capable of applying Kenpo effectively on the street. I don't doubt it. So why don't they show it?

    I agree somewhat with Mr. Broad and I stated that same fact in the beginning. You can't go around hurting people just to show what you do. That's counter-productive and could lead to you becoming a hermit. But if you can't show Kenpo right, why show it at all?

    I think the trouble with demonstrating kenpo on clips is based on an adherence to ideal phase executions that don't account for reactions of opponents, either to blows (i.e., kick him in the nads, what's he gonna do?), or to stimulus in general (who among you will stand there with a punch hanging in the air as an opponent whups on you?).
    Exactly.

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    Talking Re: Kenpo via YouTube...an honest representation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    The video was ... In kenpo, we find Circles of Confluence in the orbits around our bodies as locations that allow us to continue the momentum in a series of attacking blows (remember: Defense stops at the block...or actually, at the evasive foot maneuver.

    Here is the video in question:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZLw2ShMDrw


    I'll post the links to the next series as soon as I have them up.

    Best Regards, Dave
    What the ........

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    Default Re: Kenpo via YouTube...an honest representation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roach View Post
    Years ago, I remember a school assignment in which the professor brought up the idea of being "our own worst critic...good or bad". I believe from a business perspective (with no correlation between business and Kenpo), it can be beneficial to identify your own faults before your customer does, enabling you to correct them before they ever become an issue. However, I also feel being supercritical of your own ability can hinder growth and progression.

    In clicking through a multitude of clips on YouTube, keyword Kenpo Karate, you see everything from excellent demonstration, to plausible, to down right nausea.

    I could be wrong here, but I personally feel that the primary reasons people post Kenpo clips for public viewing are for:

    - to demonstrate the system, technique, or principle as they understand it
    - to demonstrate personal ability
    - an educational "how-to"

    Of the roughly 2,300 clips displayed, I'd have to say that 75% of them demonstrate a Kenpo not resemblant of practical application Kenpo. You can search YT under a different query and find the same staggering result. In saying this, I'm referring to the "technique" clips and not the drills, forms, etc. clips.

    I could be wrong, and I welcome your disagreement here, but I cannot blame outsiders for harboring a wrong perspective about the Kenpo systems. This is what we show them our system is about. WE choose to post this for all to see. Mulitiple counter-attacks to a punch that leaves our dummy standing upright. A crap load of sound effects with no apparent physical striking effect. Whirling arms and flailing legs that seem to serve no real purpose. Absent of actual instruction, this is what a layman would expect Kenpo to look like.

    This leads me to wonder: In posting video clips online, our we the cause of our own poor perspective from outsiders?

    I recently saw a clip on YouTube demonstrated by KT's own Dr. Dave Crouch. In the clip he discusses orbits and the strikes contained specifically within the technique 5 Swords. In his, often comedic, comparison of how most execute this technique (choppy, robot-like "HIYA"-like fashion), Dr. Crouch goes on to exhibit something entirely different than posted by majority on the internet; a technique that looks like it works. With proper angles, with torque, with solid base, and with purpose. In using his video as an example, that is what Kenpo is about, but you couldn't surmise that by searching YouTube. His points are the minority, yet, they make the most sense.

    Take any Kenpo technique. Demonstrated properly, your "video dummy" would be left lying in tears. You wouldn't have many friends left to "help" you.

    Why do we show the public a different Kenpo than we study?

    Is the posting of video techniques online beneficial to the perspective of Kenpo to the uneducated public?

    There are some that will claim "a Kenpo technique displayed with it's complete application in it's entirety is too deadly to show." I've seen this, and heard it. Then why show a bastardized version?

    Should we limit our sharing to just forms, drills, and ideas absent of physical application?

    If a technique's physical application is displayed, should we keep it "slo-mo" to isolate the target and weapon?

    I've yet to see a Kenpo technique demonstrated full or even half speed that got me excited. Why? Because it's not believable.

    Most can agree: There is a difference between control in application and acting.

    Are we the sour candy in the mouths of those who seek to understand us?



    My apologies for the rant. Looking forward to your feedback.

    Respectfully,
    You can properly execute a technique without hurting your student; its called control. Secondly, you know kenpo from the perspective of those who teach you. Without seeing you demonstrate a single I'm sure we could inundate you with questions if you did. On the other hand I agree most of it is either crap or demonstrated for a belt level lesser than yours.
    Sean

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    Default Re: Kenpo via YouTube...an honest representation?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGoldenOne View Post
    What the ........

    I couldn't finish. That guy is a riot. It seemed an exercise in going from bad to worse. LOL

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    Thumbs up Re: Kenpo via YouTube...an honest representation?

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    You can properly execute a technique without hurting your student; its called control.
    Sean
    Absolutely!

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    Secondly, you know Kenpo from the perspective of those who teach you.
    Sean
    Or with your personal logic or views you have chosen to adopt.


    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    Without seeing you demonstrate a single I'm sure we could inundate you with questions if you did.
    Sean
    LOL, Yes Sean we could smoke him with questions couldn't we!

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    On the other hand I agree most of it is either crap or demonstrated for a belt level lesser than yours.
    Sean
    Be nice, yes just a view or thoughts on orbits and consider...... good thing! A great medium to get feedback.

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    * Time will either Promote you or Expose You!
    * There are two ways of spreading the light.... 1]. to be the candle or 2]. the mirror that reflects it!
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