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Thread: Sparing??

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    Default Sparing??

    How effective do you think sparing in kenpo realy is other than learning to time attacks and defend yourself I mean you cant use any of your techs or you will realy injure someone?

    I was just wondering what others thought about it.

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    Default Re: Sparing??

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo89
    How effective do you think sparing in kenpo realy is other than learning to time attacks and defend yourself I mean you cant use any of your techs or you will realy injure someone?

    I was just wondering what others thought about it.
    Sparing has it's uses, and they are few.
    Just my thinking. Too many schools make it the center of what they do.
    AND THAT'S FINE....so long as they acknowledge that they are a "sport karate" school and not a place to learn martial arts that would be applicable outside of the ring.

    (It can be very fun though. Best form of Tag around.)
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    Default Re: Sparing??

    i have to agree with brother john, sparring is a controlled form of tag. training for self defense is much different.....although people would disagree that sparring definitely helps with self defense.
    it does help to overcome the fear of getting hit.

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    Default Re: Sparing??

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John
    Sparing has it's uses, and they are few.
    Just my thinking. Too many schools make it the center of what they do.
    AND THAT'S FINE....so long as they acknowledge that they are a "sport karate" school and not a place to learn martial arts that would be applicable outside of the ring.

    (It can be very fun though. Best form of Tag around.)
    Your Brother
    John

    I disagree big-time. If you want to be a good fighter, you need to fight a lot and against as many people as you can. Who says that sparring has to be point oriented? At my school, our students fight continuous 99% of the time, and I have a number of guys who fight full-contact.

    Too many Kenpoists live in an illusion thinking that if they master those 154 techniques on a partner, and practice the forms and sets regularly, they can fight. Yes, they will probably beat the average Joe, I acknowledge that. But as soon as they fight someone with skills who can take a lot of abuse, they will get their "behind" kicked if they don't fight a lot.

    You need to balance your time working the self-defense technqiues AND sparring to learn how to defend yourself.


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

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    Default Re: Sparing??

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    I disagree big-time. If you want to be a good fighter, you need to fight a lot and against as many people as you can. Who says that sparring has to be point oriented? At my school, our students fight continuous 99% of the time, and I have a number of guys who fight full-contact.

    Too many Kenpoists live in an illusion thinking that if they master those 154 techniques on a partner, and practice the forms and sets regularly, they can fight. Yes, they will probably beat the average Joe, I acknowledge that. But as soon as they fight someone with skills who can take a lot of abuse, they will get their "behind" kicked if they don't fight a lot.

    You need to balance your time working the self-defense technqiues AND sparring to learn how to defend yourself.


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com
    I've seen one exception to the general rule that sparring will make your self-defense better, and his name is Rick Jeffcoat in Pasadena. His SD techniques are nearly unstoppable (ideal phase no less) against resisitve opponents (me LOL), but his sparring skills are lacking. But he's the only one I've ever seen that had this ability.

    Have a great Kenpo day

    Clyde

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    Default Re: Sparing??

    Quote Originally Posted by kenpoprofessor
    I've seen one exception to the general rule that sparring will make your self-defense better, and his name is Rick Jeffcoat in Pasadena. His SD techniques are nearly unstoppable (ideal phase no less) against resisitve opponents (me LOL), but his sparring skills are lacking. But he's the only one I've ever seen that had this ability.

    Have a great Kenpo day

    Clyde
    Clyde,

    Even though Rick is no longer with the LTKKA, do you ever hook up with him from time to time? I have never met him, but of course, remember him from all of Larry's videos (older and newer sets). Is he independent right now, or does he train under someone else?

    I remember you telling me that he is tough as nails, and I thought that he moved awesome from a few video clips I saw of him on the internet some time ago.


    Jamie

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    Default Re: Sparing??

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    Clyde,

    Even though Rick is no longer with the LTKKA, do you ever hook up with him from time to time? I have never met him, but of course, remember him from all of Larry's videos (older and newer sets). Is he independent right now, or does he train under someone else?

    I remember you telling me that he is tough as nails, and I thought that he moved awesome from a few video clips I saw of him on the internet some time ago.


    Jamie
    Yep, I'm thinking of going by Saturday to visit and play a bit LOL. No, he's not training with anyone right now, besides, who would be qualified to teach him other than you know who LOL?

    Have a great Kenpo day

    Clyde

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    Default Re: Sparing??

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    I disagree big-time. If you want to be a good fighter, you need to fight a lot and against as many people as you can. Who says that sparring has to be point oriented? At my school, our students fight continuous 99% of the time, and I have a number of guys who fight full-contact.

    Too many Kenpoists live in an illusion thinking that if they master those 154 techniques on a partner, and practice the forms and sets regularly, they can fight. Yes, they will probably beat the average Joe, I acknowledge that. But as soon as they fight someone with skills who can take a lot of abuse, they will get their "behind" kicked if they don't fight a lot.

    You need to balance your time working the self-defense technqiues AND sparring to learn how to defend yourself.


    Jamie Seabrook
    I did say that I thought that sparing does have 'some' uses. One of the better uses is in toughening someone up... but I disagree that it's really that needed for learning to defend oneself. The toughness is, but the parameters placed on sparing (more than just the "Point vs. continuous" deal) keep it from being realistic training, and therefore I don't think it furthers our ability to fight. I think that "Fighting" and sparing are only mildly related distant cousins, twice removed.
    I never said 'do without it', but that it shouldn't be a real focus.
    I'm glad you seem to get a lot of good out of it. Like I said, it is fun.

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    Thumbs up Re: Sparing??

    I think one problem is that many people have different definitions of sparring. It is pretty much a generic term like "karate" is pretty much all inclusive.

    Some people believe sparring is nothing less then gloving up, mouth pieces in place, ref standing there, ready to score a point.

    Some people think sparring is applying techniques in a fluid or continuous realm with or without padding.

    I personally like continuous, light-medium contact, no pads, maybe a mouth piece without anyone yelling break while working towards applying techniques from your system.

    I have also seen schools that claim to teach a system then spend the majority of their time working on point sparring and tournie "theory" as opposed to delving into self defense and keys to winning true combat. If you are focusing on point sparring and sprinkling a little technique work on the side I think that you should be open on the "sport karate" aspect of your school.

    Although none of these are "incorrect" the definition of sparring is subjective to what someone means when they say "sparring." I personally believe that if you can not use your system or peices of your system in a fluid simulation of combat you might want to reconsider your methods of training and implimentation of the system.

    Good points have been made by all
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    Default Re: Sparing??

    Sparring is key to timming. You get to work on specific lessons or principles all while someone is trying to stop you. How is that not usefull? Didn't Mohamid Ali have people beat on his arms in sparring to perfect his rop-a-dope method? Its controlled reality.
    Sean

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    Default Re: Sparing??

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger
    Sparring is key to timming. You get to work on specific lessons or principles all while someone is trying to stop you. How is that not usefull? Didn't Mohamid Ali have people beat on his arms in sparring to perfect his rop-a-dope method? Its controlled reality.
    Sean
    Again....define your version of sparring,

    second...I do not think anywhere in this thread anyone said it was NOT usefull in some shape or form. If I am wrong maybe you could point it out for me.
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    Default Re: Sparing??

    I really should clarify my first reply:
    Sparing has it's place. It is good for somethings, but I don't find it to be nearly as important as some. Especially in it's "Competitive" venue. Point fighting is point fighting and has more to do with playing a game than with Fighting.

    I wholeheartedly concure with Brian's version of where sparing finds it's 'use'. It is useful.

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    Default Re: Sparing??

    I find it to be a tool, an exercise...
    I disagree with making "sparing" part of a belt test, but a type of training to be done during classes.

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    Default Re: Sparing??

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John
    I find it to be a tool, an exercise...
    I disagree with making "sparing" part of a belt test, but a type of training to be done during classes.

    Your Brother
    John
    i totally agree with you here.
    im sure there are people out there that have lousy wind that cant spar worth a dang. but, i would bet that some of those same people can really kick butt in a self defense situation.

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    Default Re: Sparing??

    Sparring is just one part of the equation, but sometimes when the instructor is good at sparring it becomes a dominant part of the class.

    I like to spar, and I like it when my students spar it is a great tool for timing, and to become less afraid of getting hit. But as much as I like sparring I know it is only one part of the big picture.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Sparing??

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad
    Sparring is just one part of the equation
    I know it is only one part of the big picture.
    I think that's the Key of the issue.

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    Default Re: Sparing??

    If sparring is a key ingrediant should it not be included in a test??

    If you have lousy wing in sparring you will have worse in a street fight. Allthough a streetfighter is of a shorter duration the demands it places on your body are 4 fold.

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    Default Re: Sparing??

    Quote Originally Posted by The Kai
    If sparring is a key ingrediant should it not be included in a test??

    If you have lousy wing in sparring you will have worse in a street fight. Allthough a streetfighter is of a shorter duration the demands it places on your body are 4 fold.
    People don't defend themselves the same way they spar. Their is no eye gouging, groin kicks, knee kicks etc... in sparring. Therefore unless it is a sport school then sparring is not neccessary for testing.

    I knew a guy who was the worst guy in the class at sparring or atleast it seemed that way everytime we watched him. But I seen him in real action a couple times and it was a whole different ball game. He exploded with percision, and power.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Sparing??

    That's a pretty rare thing, although mindset does play into things most guys who can't slam and jam, have trouble with a fight. Sparring gives you a chance to deliver techniques while off balance, excited and tired. Also gets you used to getting hit. If you allow sweeps and throws, you also get that wonderfull feeling of hitting the mat. In a perfect enviroment things like eye jabs, elbow break always work great. Sparring allow a wee little taste of working in a imperfect enviroment.

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    Default Re: Sparing??

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad
    People don't defend themselves the same way they spar. Their is no eye gouging, groin kicks, knee kicks etc... in sparring. Therefore unless it is a sport school then sparring is not neccessary for testing.

    I knew a guy who was the worst guy in the class at sparring or atleast it seemed that way everytime we watched him. But I seen him in real action a couple times and it was a whole different ball game. He exploded with percision, and power.
    No groin kicks or knees, where have you been training, at a TKD school LOL? The ony thing we really don't do is eye gouge.

    Have a great Kenpo day

    Clyde

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