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Thread: Knee strike descending elbow combo

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    nelson is offline
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    Default Knee strike descending elbow combo

    Dear Kenpo brothers and sister:

    Do you ever use a knee strike and decending elbow combination on BJJ or MA fighters that shoot for the legs? The knee strike is delivered with the back leg of course along with a simultaeous descending elbow to the upper back. The spine would be the target in a LOD situation. The move is a good set up for a gullitine choke to the front as your opponet struggles to recover from the blow.

    The move uses the same principal as an elbow strike to the face at the same time with a palm strike to the back of the head with the opposite hand. This combo is one of the deadliest strikes that I know and I would not support it's use in any MA sport competition.

    Nelson

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    Default Re: Knee strike descending elbow combo

    Good combo! Another one you wouldn't see in the UFC.
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    Ray
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    Default Re: Knee strike descending elbow combo

    I haven't had the pleasure of delivering that in "real life." For years, we called it a "dagwood sandwich" (as in the sandwiches made by the cartoon strip Blondie's husband Dagwood). Mostly, I've practiced it to the head in some techs.

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    Default Re: Knee strike descending elbow combo

    Nelson,

    Believe it or not, it's much harder than you think to pull that off against a trained opponent. Unfortunately, if they know how to shoot into the legs, they usually have some training.

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    Default Re: Knee strike descending elbow combo

    I consider it a low percentage, high risk, high gain type of tech, if you fail you are going down hard, you have given away your base for a strong attack. Typically in a decent shoot, I don't see the posture to allow a spine attack, though the head is open. Watch the posture of these guys in the shoot, it isn't a tackle and it isn't giving you a torso that can be easily "sandwiched."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-t_1N4d6oc
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6JAZ...eature=related

    Nice rear leg knee, to a sprawl, then more knees here, but this isn't what you are suggesting.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfnMA0hiKQQ

    Lamont
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    “He, who will not reason, is a bigot; he, who cannot, is a fool; and he, who dares not, is a slave.”
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    Default Re: Knee strike descending elbow combo

    Dear Blindside:

    Thanks for the info pardner!

    I'll check out your vids and run it by the boys to see if the tech can be modified to make sense or if it should be disgarded. Basically we've been brainstorming to try to see what might work.

    Nelson

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    Default Re: Knee strike descending elbow combo

    It depends on your attacker. Is it an unskilled tackle/body rush type attack? Then you can probably pull it off. Or, if the attacker is way out of range and tries to penetrate to get the takedown, then you can see it and attack his attack.

    I would be very hesitant to try it on a skilled person that trains both striking and grappling. Usually, they are in punching range and use jabs to the face (their range finders, if they can touch you, they can take you down) to get your guard up high and then immediately shoot in for the legs after the high level attack. I think pulling off the "sandwhich" in a situation like this would be very low percentage.

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    Default Re: Knee strike descending elbow combo

    Isnt this done in intercepting the ram?

    Should intercepting ram be looked at?


    Is the tech valid?

    Is tha attack valid?



    mmmmmmmm
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    Default Re: Knee strike descending elbow combo

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    Isnt this done in intercepting the ram?

    Should intercepting ram be looked at?


    Is the tech valid?

    Is tha attack valid?

    mmmmmmmm
    Sure the attack (tackle) is valid, the question is is the defense valid for a shoot, and I really don't think it is. On a single leg shoot the guy is going for your lead leg, so stepping to 11:00 really isn't a bright move, you've moved his target closer to him. Given the posture on a shoot
    the kidney target is not available, and you don't have much travel to generate power for wherever your hammerfist is going to go. If he does get ahold of your lead leg, the takedown shifts from a 12-6 direction to a 10:30-7:30, so your direction of settling has to take that into account.

    The more important question is, given the differences between a shoot and a tackle, and the important differences in considerations each require in defending, can you as the defender read the attack well enough at the point of initiation to choose an appropriate defense. On the other hand, a defense like the sprawl doesn't need to read those fine differences, it just defends against a lower body attack.

    Lamont
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    Default Re: Knee strike descending elbow combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindside View Post
    Sure the attack (tackle) is valid, the question is is the defense valid for a shoot, and I really don't think it is. On a single leg shoot the guy is going for your lead leg, so stepping to 11:00 really isn't a bright move, you've moved his target closer to him. Given the posture on a shoot
    the kidney target is not available, and you don't have much travel to generate power for wherever your hammerfist is going to go. If he does get ahold of your lead leg, the takedown shifts from a 12-6 direction to a 10:30-7:30, so your direction of settling has to take that into account.

    The more important question is, given the differences between a shoot and a tackle, and the important differences in considerations each require in defending, can you as the defender read the attack well enough at the point of initiation to choose an appropriate defense. On the other hand, a defense like the sprawl doesn't need to read those fine differences, it just defends against a lower body attack.

    Lamont
    Ok, I can see that. However this isnt the only place that this is used. I belive it has its place. So I guess the question is when to use it?
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    Default Re: Knee strike descending elbow combo

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    The move uses the same principal as an elbow strike to the face at the same time with a palm strike to the back of the head with the opposite hand. This combo is one of the deadliest strikes that I know and I would not support it's use in any MA sport competition.
    Nelson
    Equivelent forces are seen all the time when a guy grounds and pounds from the mount, and starts bouncing the other guys head off the ground, yes it is a fight ender, but no deaths have resulted yet. So I'm not sure "deadly" is the right description.

    Lamont
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    “He, who will not reason, is a bigot; he, who cannot, is a fool; and he, who dares not, is a slave.”
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    "This person is as dangerous as an IED."

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    Default Re: Knee strike descending elbow combo

    Dear Kenpo brothers and sisters:

    The combination palm heel to the back of the head and elbow strike are deadly. I know because I have seen the results. The victims face was so badly damaged that the Dr.'s said that a mere slap would have killed the guy. Fragments from the cheeckbone and eye socket along with the broken nose were pressed up against the membrane that enclosed the brain. Spinal fluid was leaking from his face when he arrived at the hospital.

    The original question related to an elbow strike and not a hammerfist. I consider the hammerfist to be much less effective as a weapon. When you use the move you have to have enough sense not to tip your hand so the opponent will figure out what's up. The move would be more appropriate on a shoot for a double leg takedown than the single leg variety.

    Another "welcoming" punch for leg shooters that looks like it has some potential is an uppercut followed with an ascending/descending elbow combination. Not many folks seem to know how to throw a good uppercut anymore as witnessed by it's virtual absence from competition. Heavy bag work will help develop the power to stop an attack in it's tracks.

    What I'm hoping to do here is to raise the discussion level as to what traditionaly trained MA's can do against BJJ competition. If you can't beat them then join them dosen't seem to be a good enough response to me. We need to develop weapons and strategies that work against groundfighters. The best strategy to me is to not let them take you to the ground in the frist place.

    Nelson Kari

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    Default Re: Knee strike descending elbow combo

    Try shifting forward into the attack with a wedge, one forearm slams downward and forward into the neck, while the other hand checks the upper arm. The forward shift and hitting with a strongly braced arm should stop or heavily reduce his forward momentum, and if you are lucky a brachial stun. Kick your lead leg back, and start circling toward whatever arm you have control of.

    Uppercuts are great, unless you've started from a high reference point like a flinch, a high gaurd, or a "hey man I don't want any trouble" position.

    Lamont
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    “He, who will not reason, is a bigot; he, who cannot, is a fool; and he, who dares not, is a slave.”
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    Default Re: Knee strike descending elbow combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindside View Post
    I consider it a low percentage, high risk, high gain type of tech, if you fail you are going down hard, you have given away your base for a strong attack. Typically in a decent shoot, I don't see the posture to allow a spine attack, though the head is open. Watch the posture of these guys in the shoot, it isn't a tackle and it isn't giving you a torso that can be easily "sandwiched."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-t_1N4d6oc
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6JAZ...eature=related

    Nice rear leg knee, to a sprawl, then more knees here, but this isn't what you are suggesting.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfnMA0hiKQQ

    Lamont
    Doesn't happen too often , but again I find myself agreeing with Blindside on this one.

    Though a knee to the face CAN be devistating, It's not a garauntee. The nature of a shoot is different from a basic tackle attempt.

    A shooter drops down low, fully utilizing their leg strength to explode inward and upward prior to the takedown. It doesn't really afford a good "spine" shot.

    A knee can be effective, but keep in mind...a shooter wants your leg...do you really want to give it to them? Besides, most trained shooters expect this counter and prepare for it.

    I think the most common mistake in defending the shoot is defending it along a linear path, outside of a sprawl defense anyway. I believe that any other defense, especially one that plans on relying on strikes VS grapples or holds , should be executed by employing methods to get off line of the shoot.

    Utilize circular motion, move up and/or down the circle as they shoot, using their momentum to your advantage. Employee methods to redirect their momentum and/or gain angles of obscurity....then I think you'll find yourself in a very good position to utilize a strike to your advantage.

    For instance:
    I learned a variation of Charging Ram where the idea was to step up the circle hammering the shooters left arm with an outward downward block. You ended up to their 9:00 and could unwind with a downward hammer fist to the base of their neck.

    As a reminder, you really...really...really must account for a shooters forward momentum; it's much different than somebody attempting a grab or tackle.

    Hope this helps.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Knee strike descending elbow combo

    You cannot compare "sport fighting" to street fighting. Period. I would much rather be DQ'd in the octagon, than hit the pavement.
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    Michael Huffman
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    Default Re: Knee strike descending elbow combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael151 View Post
    You cannot compare "sport fighting" to street fighting. Period. I would much rather be DQ'd in the octagon, than hit the pavement.
    Amen to that brother!
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Knee strike descending elbow combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael151 View Post
    You cannot compare "sport fighting" to street fighting. Period. I would much rather be DQ'd in the octagon, than hit the pavement.
    Well sure, but whats your point? Is there a MMA illegal technique that you find particularly effective against a shoot?

    Lamont
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    Default Re: Knee strike descending elbow combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindside View Post
    Well sure, but whats your point? Is there a MMA illegal technique that you find particularly effective against a shoot?

    Lamont
    It would be illegal to hit them in the head with a brick....LOL.
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    Default Re: Knee strike descending elbow combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    It would be illegal to hit them in the head with a brick....LOL.


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    Default Re: Knee strike descending elbow combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    It would be illegal to hit them in the head with a brick....LOL.
    Good answer!
    Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Kenpo Karate
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