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Thread: There is no WRONG WAY in Kenpo?

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    Default There is no WRONG WAY in Kenpo?

    Greetings folks!

    The thread title might be a little misleading, but I have a two-part question.

    1). I heard several times from Kenpoists and teachers that there is no "wrong way" to do anything in Kenpo as long as you don't violate the principles. As long as the principles are held intact, your options are limitless.

    What are the most important things to consider (principles)?

    2) I've also heard and seen posts from Kenpoists talking about techniques in the system that "break certain rules" but it's ok because something more important is being taught, or the "rule breaking" didn't compromise anything in the technique. What are the basic rules in technique execution?

    Thanks in advance for your input.

    Cheers!

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    Default Re: There is no WRONG WAY in Kenpo?

    Thanks for asking this! I'm eager to find out what the answer to this is, also.
    ~Bill Richardson

    Rudeness is the frustrated attempt of a small mind to communicate.

    Forgive everyone everything

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    Default Re: There is no WRONG WAY in Kenpo?

    As long as you are happy with what you are doing, then it is 'right'.

    However, 'right' and 'wrong' do not necessarily equate to 'effective' and 'ineffective'. There is always a more effective way to perform a technique/basic, the key is finding the methodolgy that is right for you, whilst maintaining an open mind to other approaches.

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    Default Re: There is no WRONG WAY in Kenpo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapper6 View Post
    Greetings folks!

    The thread title might be a little misleading, but I have a two-part question.

    1). I heard several times from Kenpoists and teachers that there is no "wrong way" to do anything in Kenpo as long as you don't violate the principles. As long as the principles are held intact, your options are limitless.

    What are the most important things to consider (principles)?

    2) I've also heard and seen posts from Kenpoists talking about techniques in the system that "break certain rules" but it's ok because something more important is being taught, or the "rule breaking" didn't compromise anything in the technique. What are the basic rules in technique execution?

    Thanks in advance for your input.

    Cheers!
    The techs teach multiple principles. Depending on who is teaching it and what they want to focus on at the time. There are right and wrong ways when doing something. Case in point: when you walk forward you land heel/toe, heel/ toe. Not toe/heel, toe/ heel. When you walk backwards you land toe/ heel, toe/ heel not the other way around.

    Even moving into a netural bow is more then just steping back. So without the specific rule to use as an example we cant fornulate a response for you. Also we dont know if any rules are bent or broken, they may just be mis-interpeted.
    Brad Marshall SP
    KKFI

    trgodbm@yahoo.com

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    Default Re: There is no WRONG WAY in Kenpo?

    Hello friend!
    Your thread is not misleading at alll!!Ok,heres my point of view

    Kenpo is we say 'a complete study of motion' and what makes Kenpo what it is is that rules,principles and concepts.They form the foundation that is kenpo and make it stand out as a special system in the martial arts galore

    My expirience tells me that there is such thing as 'wrong' Kenpo.I have spend a significant time of my life doing it,and i didnt even know i was.When i actually saw 'correct' Kenpo about 4-5 years ago it was like a hard slap in the face.When we started following a legitement lineage and started getting the 'goods' it was like being reborn in the system.

    The sets of rules and principles are way too many to be posted here,a good instructor will be sure to repeat them so many times in class u wont be able to forget them even if you want.And its by those youll learn to self-correct yourself and see guys in class (on on youtube:P) n know that what their doing is bad or good and why.

    Yes the same rules we so much defend and follow are 'broken' as early on as the yellow belt actually.This happens for several reasons.One being for the sake of category-completion which is a HIGHLY important study/factor in the system.Another is that the system wants to expose you to as much motion and situations as possible and also show you that things CAN go wrong and get in a bad situation,or one your not 'used' to so it tries to give you examples of how to function at those situations.catch the youtube video of mr.Wedlake doing 'Blinding Sacrifice' one of the system''s rule-breakers.Itll answer a few questions on that.

    In all when someone sticks to the rules and does stuff that are not in the system (fomulating) its ok,its even ok when someone's does break a rule as long he UNDERSTANDS HE IS and that hes making a choise to (remember its SELF-defense).But when you see people doing stuff like withough forming a solid base,withought using their powe-principles and being WAY TOO fast on their moves to actually deliver any significant damage or use proper timing,wrong angles etc,etc.,then you KNOW somethings wrong

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    Default Re: There is no WRONG WAY in Kenpo?

    It may sound simple, but I look at it like this: It's only wrong if it isn't effective....if you apply the principles correctly...your maneuvers will be effective. In short, if it doesn't work then it's probalby wrong. If you blame in on the principle not working, then you probably don't fully understand it's meaning and/or application.

    my 0.02
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: There is no WRONG WAY in Kenpo?

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    As long as you are happy with what you are doing, then it is 'right'.
    I disagree. Being content doesn't equal being correct.

    I agree more with your 2nd statement. What I might "think" is right doesn't make it correct in principle.

    What does Kenpo say is "correct"? You may need an example to answer. I'll try to find one.

    Thanks for your input.

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    Default Re: There is no WRONG WAY in Kenpo?

    Quote Originally Posted by John View Post
    Hello friend!
    Your thread is not misleading at alll!!Ok,heres my point of view

    Kenpo is we say 'a complete study of motion' and what makes Kenpo what it is is that rules,principles and concepts.They form the foundation that is kenpo and make it stand out as a special system in the martial arts galore

    My expirience tells me that there is such thing as 'wrong' Kenpo.I have spend a significant time of my life doing it,and i didnt even know i was.When i actually saw 'correct' Kenpo about 4-5 years ago it was like a hard slap in the face.When we started following a legitement lineage and started getting the 'goods' it was like being reborn in the system.

    The sets of rules and principles are way too many to be posted here,a good instructor will be sure to repeat them so many times in class u wont be able to forget them even if you want.And its by those youll learn to self-correct yourself and see guys in class (on on youtube:P) n know that what their doing is bad or good and why.

    Yes the same rules we so much defend and follow are 'broken' as early on as the yellow belt actually.This happens for several reasons.One being for the sake of category-completion which is a HIGHLY important study/factor in the system.Another is that the system wants to expose you to as much motion and situations as possible and also show you that things CAN go wrong and get in a bad situation,or one your not 'used' to so it tries to give you examples of how to function at those situations.catch the youtube video of mr.Wedlake doing 'Blinding Sacrifice' one of the system''s rule-breakers.Itll answer a few questions on that.

    In all when someone sticks to the rules and does stuff that are not in the system (fomulating) its ok,its even ok when someone's does break a rule as long he UNDERSTANDS HE IS and that hes making a choise to (remember its SELF-defense).But when you see people doing stuff like withough forming a solid base,withought using their powe-principles and being WAY TOO fast on their moves to actually deliver any significant damage or use proper timing,wrong angles etc,etc.,then you KNOW somethings wrong
    Thanks John. I will check out the vid of Mr. Wedlake and Blinding Sacrifice.

    I guess you got me thinking with your last paragraph. Are the rules/principles I asked about confined just to Kenpo, or are they just common knowledge ideas that all martial artists possess but often overlook/forget about?

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    Default Re: There is no WRONG WAY in Kenpo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    It may sound simple, but I look at it like this: It's only wrong if it isn't effective....if you apply the principles correctly...your maneuvers will be effective. In short, if it doesn't work then it's probalby wrong. If you blame in on the principle not working, then you probably don't fully understand it's meaning and/or application.

    my 0.02
    Again, that compels me to inquire; what are these principles? I know they might be infinite in number but could you list even a few? I'm trying to grasp an understanding of what drives success in an EPAK student frame of mind.

    Thanks!

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    Default Re: There is no WRONG WAY in Kenpo?

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    Even moving into a netural bow is more then just steping back. So without the specific rule to use as an example we cant fornulate a response for you. (2)Also we dont know if any rules are bent or broken, they may just be mis-interpeted.
    Great idea. Can you describe moving from feet together into a RNB? (Just to compare notes).

    (2) I agree wholeheartedly. Especially knowing Kenpo has many branches born at different times.

    Cheers!

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    Default Re: There is no WRONG WAY in Kenpo?

    I agree with John. He said it very well.

    There are rules and principles in our system. There are times when we break them within the system, Intentionally.

    Remember, one of the common quotes attributed to Mr. Parker is about finding out what is "useful", what is "unuseful", and what is "useless". Mr, Parker tells us to 'store everything', and use what is useful.

    As for one of the 'principles' of Kenpo ... I'll put two out there for you.

    Rule #1 - Establish your base.

    It is the only rule in Kenpo that gets a number. Because, in order to do anything, the first thing you need to do is get your self into a good solid stance.

    and ... how about this one ...

    Don't use the 'new hand' on the inside.

    This principle is first presented in Long Form 1. It is most easily visible in the second third of the form, where the hands are doing blocks in sets of three. The active block should be further away from the students body than the inactive block. And, if you are this advanced in the system, we learn to break this rule at the beginning of Form 4 ... in the technique Darting Leaves.

    And there are reasons for both actions.


    Mike

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    Default Re: There is no WRONG WAY in Kenpo?

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    I agree with John. He said it very well.

    There are rules and principles in our system. There are times when we break them within the system, Intentionally.

    Remember, one of the common quotes attributed to Mr. Parker is about finding out what is "useful", what is "unuseful", and what is "useless". Mr, Parker tells us to 'store everything', and use what is useful.

    As for one of the 'principles' of Kenpo ... I'll put two out there for you.

    Rule #1 - Establish your base.

    It is the only rule in Kenpo that gets a number. Because, in order to do anything, the first thing you need to do is get your self into a good solid stance.

    and ... how about this one ...

    Don't use the 'new hand' on the inside.

    This principle is first presented in Long Form 1. It is most easily visible in the second third of the form, where the hands are doing blocks in sets of three. The active block should be further away from the students body than the inactive block. And, if you are this advanced in the system, we learn to break this rule at the beginning of Form 4 ... in the technique Darting Leaves.

    And there are reasons for both actions.


    Mike
    Thanks Mike for the examples. Just what I was looking for.

    Can you further explain the "don't use the new hand on the inside" one? Not sure I follow; and I'd love to.

    Thanks!

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    Default Re: There is no WRONG WAY in Kenpo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapper6 View Post
    Can you further explain the "don't use the new hand on the inside" one? Not sure I follow; and I'd love to.
    Pretend with me now, that you are a vampire, lying in your crypt, waiting for the full moon. You are lying on your back. Your hands are crossed and lying on your chest. Which hand is closes to your chest? That is the hand that is "inside".

    Let us assume that you laid down in your crypt, and placed your right hand over your heart, and then you placed your left hand, over your right hand.

    The danger with this position, is that I can eliminate both of your hands as weapons by placing one of my hands atop yours. I trap your left and right hands with one hand; leaving my other hand free to punch you in the nose.

    So, when one hand is in play ~ either blocking or striking ~ and we wish to introduce the other weapon ~ we must be certain that we do not put ourselves into a weak position. The new hand, the idle hand, needs to come into play further away from my body than the active hand; so that we don't present an opportunity for our opponent to trap both of our weapons.

    Now, there ... I've gone and said to much.

    signed ~ dracula.

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    Default Re: There is no WRONG WAY in Kenpo?

    Quote Originally Posted by John View Post
    catch the youtube video of mr.Wedlake doing 'Blinding Sacrifice' one of the system''s rule-breakers.Itll answer a few questions on that.
    I watched the video and understand the "sacrifice", e.g., breaking the rule (keep your hands above the aggressor's). However, that being an example, I don't understand why you would want to do that; other than wanting the attacker to arch his back. His hands are already up. After the double outward, why not go straight to the downward contouring checks/jaw strike (ala Hooking Wings minus the additional strikes?) An entirely different discussion altogether.

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    Default Re: There is no WRONG WAY in Kenpo?

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    Pretend with me now, that you are a vampire, lying in your crypt, waiting for the full moon. You are lying on your back. Your hands are crossed and lying on your chest. Which hand is closes to your chest? That is the hand that is "inside".

    Let us assume that you laid down in your crypt, and placed your right hand over your heart, and then you placed your left hand, over your right hand.

    The danger with this position, is that I can eliminate both of your hands as weapons by placing one of my hands atop yours. I trap your left and right hands with one hand; leaving my other hand free to punch you in the nose.

    So, when one hand is in play ~ either blocking or striking ~ and we wish to introduce the other weapon ~ we must be certain that we do not put ourselves into a weak position. The new hand, the idle hand, needs to come into play further away from my body than the active hand; so that we don't present an opportunity for our opponent to trap both of our weapons.

    Now, there ... I've gone and said to much.

    signed ~ dracula.
    Ahhh, I see.

    IMO, nothing wrong with using the inside hand. Just don't allow it to become trapped.

    I'm assuming when you referenced Long 1 (for this example), you are referring to the triple blocks?

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    Default Re: There is no WRONG WAY in Kenpo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapper6 View Post
    I'm assuming when you referenced Long 1 (for this example), you are referring to the triple blocks?
    Yes.

    I just watched a few clips of Long Form 1 on youtube. You can see the principle in action best when the practitioners turn toward 9:00 O'clock and execute the outward blocks.

    Some of the practitioners I observed, were less concientious about following this principle correctly with the upward and downward blocks. On the upward blocks, neither hand reached the center line, but rather the two blocks were side-by-side, rather than inside and outside (the block moving up should be outside, the block coming down should be on the inside. With the downward blocks, the minor block is an 'inside downward, palm down block' - which should be visible inside the major block; the 'outward downward palm down block'.

    I hope that Mr. Hawkins doesn't mind, but you can see this principle in action in the first 1:20 of this clip. Although the outward blocks have the back to the camera, you can see the upward block inside and outside ... and the downward blocks inside and outside.


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    Default Re: There is no WRONG WAY in Kenpo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapper6 View Post
    Again, that compels me to inquire; what are these principles? I know they might be infinite in number but could you list even a few? I'm trying to grasp an understanding of what drives success in an EPAK student frame of mind.

    Thanks!
    A good start would be to purchase the "Encyclopedia of Kenpo." That would introduce you to the mose "standard" principles accepted by most.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: There is no WRONG WAY in Kenpo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    A good start would be to purchase the "Encyclopedia of Kenpo." That would introduce you to the mose "standard" principles accepted by most.
    Actually, I figured my good start would be to ask the masses here at KT. The idea being to hear POV's on the principles of Kenpo; not what the "book" says.

    It's my limited experience in Kenpo that tells me the "written word" went by the wayside a long time ago.

    What is perceived today? What are THE principles?

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    Default Re: There is no WRONG WAY in Kenpo?

    Here's the problem. All of the things mentioned are not "principles" in science. They are conceptual ideas, or philosophical preferences. Real principles are finite and actually convey something concrete.

    "Establish your base." What does that mean? yeah, i know what it means but a principle tells you "how," not "what."

    Kenpo can definitely be wrong, and for the record, you don't break principles ever, unless you have a more dominant principle that over-rides another.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Default Re: There is no WRONG WAY in Kenpo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapper6 View Post
    Greetings folks!

    The thread title might be a little misleading, but I have a two-part question.

    1). I heard several times from Kenpoists and teachers that there is no "wrong way" to do anything in Kenpo as long as you don't violate the principles. As long as the principles are held intact, your options are limitless.

    What are the most important things to consider (principles)?

    2) I've also heard and seen posts from Kenpoists talking about techniques in the system that "break certain rules" but it's ok because something more important is being taught, or the "rule breaking" didn't compromise anything in the technique. What are the basic rules in technique execution?

    Thanks in advance for your input.

    Cheers!
    I would caution you not to break rules when something is being taught. Learn the principles and question the technique when you are being taught to break principles. Feel free to break principle when you need to. You don't need to in class.

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    As long as you are happy with what you are doing, then it is 'right'.

    However, 'right' and 'wrong' do not necessarily equate to 'effective' and 'ineffective'. There is always a more effective way to perform a technique/basic, the key is finding the methodolgy that is right for you, whilst maintaining an open mind to other approaches.
    True, sir! Always keep an open mind. It may take some time to learn what is "useful", "not as useful", and what is "useless". But they call it a journey for a reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    It may sound simple, but I look at it like this: It's only wrong if it isn't effective....if you apply the principles correctly...your maneuvers will be effective. In short, if it doesn't work then it's probalby wrong. If you blame in on the principle not working, then you probably don't fully understand it's meaning and/or application.

    my 0.02
    I totally agree!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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