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Thread: Goggles for eye strike practice

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    Default Goggles for eye strike practice

    Dear Kenpo brothers and sisters:

    Do any of you use goggles when you practice eyestrikes during self defense?

    I've been working on a technique by using a front palm bypass for a punch following up with an eyejab.

    The goggles allow for more realistic training. I'm considering having the opponent use punch gear so he could actually aim for the face while his partner does the bypass and eyestrike. If you miss the block you get popped. Does anynone else train this way?

    Nelson Kari

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    Default Re: Goggles for eye strike practice

    I just hold one of my hands in a vertical handword between my eyes, blocks that eye jab every time.





    Actually, we just move the target up two inches and tap the forehead.

    Lamont
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    Default Re: Goggles for eye strike practice

    Dear Lamont:

    I appreciate the "stooges" humour , nuck, nuck, with the vertical eye block.

    I personally don't like training to hit the wrong target. In combat you seldom get a second chance to respond. Maybe it makes no difference in reality but then again maybe it makes all the difference.

    Nelson Kari

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    Default Re: Goggles for eye strike practice

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindside View Post
    I just hold one of my hands in a vertical handword between my eyes, blocks that eye jab every time.





    Actually, we just move the target up two inches and tap the forehead.

    Lamont
    Nyuck, nyuck, nyuck. Don't forget the upward block when the hammer comes at your forehead.
    Be careful what you say, some may take it the wrong way.

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    Default Re: Goggles for eye strike practice

    I agree with nelson. For the first year of my training, we were taught to "move the target" so we can get the strikes to hit (ex. eyepokes would be to the head and chops to the throat would be half chops-half palm heel to the chest), it seemed like a good idea at the time. HOWEVER, I am now a green belt, and I have to rework some of my techniques over again because when I do the move fast, I notice myself hitting the wrong target! Last week we took a stripe test, and 3 out of 6 techniques I had to do over again and slower because I was "not hitting the target". I found out the hard way, it's better to slow the techniques down when you get to the "vital points" then it is to go fast all the way through striking the wrong targets.


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    Default Re: Goggles for eye strike practice

    We do. The only problem is that you usually get a "raw spot" on the bridge of your nose where the goggles rest from taking the shots! LOL
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Goggles for eye strike practice

    We do not practice them. Truth is we feel it unnecessary. The act is a natural one that requires zero skill and is natural in nature. It is derived from all those 'gendar based assault' women's self defense classes where squeezing crotches, ripping out eyeballs, and smashng throats are acceptable beause the presumption is a man attacking a 'defenseless'' women who's life is in jeopardy. The one's where they teach you to put your keys in-between your fingers to gouch out the eyes. You know those short classes that teach 'easy' stuff that anyone can learn in a few hours. The stuff the really well trained people don't even talk about because it's below the bottom end of the art.

    Not to mention in most cases for a man to deliberately utilize this method would land them in jail, except in the most demonstrably dire of circumstances. You see, in the real man-on-man world, most legal jurisdictions will not find this acceptable. You may win the fight, but the guy that threw that punch that you miamed will see you carted away for some real jail time, and own your house when you get out in civil court. Plaintiff's Attorney; "Why did you cause the plaintiff to lose his sight in one/both eye?" Answer; "He threw a punch at me." Even though he may initiate the assault, the law doesn't allow a disproportionate escalation of violence unless you can demonstrate your life was in danger. Women are more likely to be able to do this, but men get locked up. Trust me.

    I know, I know, wet blanket again.
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    Default Re: Goggles for eye strike practice

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    We do not practice them. Truth is we feel it unnecessary. The act is a natural one that requires zero skill and is natural in nature. It is derived from all those 'gendar based assault' women's self defense classes where squeezing crotches, ripping out eyeballs, and smashng throats are acceptable beause the presumption is a man attacking a 'defenseless'' women who's life is in jeopardy. The one's where they teach you to put your keys in-between your fingers to gouch out the eyes. You know those short classes that teach 'easy' stuff that anyone can learn in a few hours. The stuff the really well trained people don't even talk about because it's below the bottom end of the art.

    Not to mention in most cases for a man to deliberately utilize this method would land them in jail, except in the most demonstrably dire of circumstances. You see, in the real man-on-man world, most legal jurisdictions will not find this acceptable. You may win the fight, but the guy that threw that punch that you miamed will see you carted away for some real jail time, and own your house when you get out in civil court. Plaintiff's Attorney; "Why did you cause the plaintiff to lose his sight in one/both eye?" Answer; "He threw a punch at me." Even though he may initiate the assault, the law doesn't allow a disproportionate escalation of violence unless you can demonstrate your life was in danger. Women are more likely to be able to do this, but men get locked up. Trust me.

    I know, I know, wet blanket again.

    Very well put sir.

    People have to realize that there are consequences for their actions.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Cool Re: Goggles for eye strike practice

    We tend to strike elsewhere and say (or are supposed to know) that the strike was to the eyes, groin, or whatever. I also think that it would be better to slow it down and just go for the real target, but I do as I am told most of the time and just "fake" the hit or gouge.

    I am totally for realism in everything so I would rather put on google or a helmet and have someone strike the real target than to fake it personally.
    Devil Dog Mark
    Hawaiian Kempo & Okinawan Kubudo

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    Default Re: Goggles for eye strike practice

    Dear Doc:

    Since you expressed yourself as a "wet blanket" I'll address my reply to your remarks.

    I'm proud of the classes that I taught in women's self defense where ladies learned the basics of self defense in the most dire of circumstances.
    As far as the "bottom end" goes my bottom line is survival on the street first and foremost. Not every gal or guy for that matter has the time, money, or inclination for a well disciplined series of classes. Does this mean we ignore the need as it is some how beneath our dignity to teach these survival skills?

    Doc, you're a great guy and well respected here on this forum and most folks go along with everything you say while I'm just a "Johnny Nobody" but in this instance I think you're wrong.

    Nelson Kari

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    Default Re: Goggles for eye strike practice

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Dear Doc:

    Since you expressed yourself as a "wet blanket" I'll address my reply to your remarks.

    I'm proud of the classes that I taught in women's self defense where ladies learned the basics of self defense in the most dire of circumstances.
    As far as the "bottom end" goes my bottom line is survival on the street first and foremost. Not every gal or guy for that matter has the time, money, or inclination for a well disciplined series of classes. Does this mean we ignore the need as it is some how beneath our dignity to teach these survival skills?

    Doc, you're a great guy and well respected here on this forum and most folks go along with everything you say while I'm just a "Johnny Nobody" but in this instance I think you're wrong.

    Nelson Kari
    Well I think you misinterpret what I'm saying. I never said those classes were bad or wrong. I've taught them myself for women, who truly need them. Women don't have the luxury of testosterone or muscle mass to enforce their will of aggression on other people. They and children along with the elderly are very vulnerable in our society. Don't get the impression I advocate they not be afforded the opportunity to defend themselves. I encourage it. After over thirty years of law enforcement, and seeing the effects of the thugs in our society, how could I not?

    That being said, those are the easiest things to teach because it's mostly instinctual once you get them going. I just don't think they have any place in formal martial arts training, except in the most dire of circumstances. Not because someone casually places his hand on your shoulder, or throws a punch at another man.

    With a class full of professionals, we examine the implication legally, morally, and physically of eveything we do. A person might luck up and get away with blinding a man for punching at you, but they would still be morally wrong, and if they don't have the skill to do otherwise with their life is not threatened, than they really are much of a martial artist.

    Trust me, people don't just go along with what I say. they challenge me and force me to make sense and prove my perspectives, - just as they should. And If I can make sense through logic and sound reasoning, they should say so.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

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    Default Re: Goggles for eye strike practice

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Dear Doc:

    Since you expressed yourself as a "wet blanket" I'll address my reply to your remarks.

    I'm proud of the classes that I taught in women's self defense where ladies learned the basics of self defense in the most dire of circumstances.
    As far as the "bottom end" goes my bottom line is survival on the street first and foremost. Not every gal or guy for that matter has the time, money, or inclination for a well disciplined series of classes. Does this mean we ignore the need as it is some how beneath our dignity to teach these survival skills?

    Doc, you're a great guy and well respected here on this forum and most folks go along with everything you say while I'm just a "Johnny Nobody" but in this instance I think you're wrong.

    Nelson Kari
    I'm a wet blanket about this too. I have a hard time justifying maiming or killing someone because they pushed you. And as Doc said, the law will have a problem with it too.

    While yes these are effective "survival skills," they have limited utility. Suppose you don't want to blind Uncle Bob? Or smash his junk? Or kill the drunk guy that grabbed your lapel? Few people are going to be in a true "kill or be killed situation." And if they are, like Doc says, it doesn't take much training to poke the eyes or chop the throat. I think we have an obligation to our students to equip them with the ability to respond with the appropriate level of violence.

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    Default Re: Goggles for eye strike practice

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    We do not practice them. Truth is we feel it unnecessary. The act is a natural one that requires zero skill and is natural in nature. It is derived from all those 'gendar based assault' women's self defense classes where squeezing crotches, ripping out eyeballs, and smashng throats are acceptable beause the presumption is a man attacking a 'defenseless'' women who's life is in jeopardy. The one's where they teach you to put your keys in-between your fingers to gouch out the eyes. You know those short classes that teach 'easy' stuff that anyone can learn in a few hours. The stuff the really well trained people don't even talk about because it's below the bottom end of the art.

    Not to mention in most cases for a man to deliberately utilize this method would land them in jail, except in the most demonstrably dire of circumstances. You see, in the real man-on-man world, most legal jurisdictions will not find this acceptable. You may win the fight, but the guy that threw that punch that you miamed will see you carted away for some real jail time, and own your house when you get out in civil court. Plaintiff's Attorney; "Why did you cause the plaintiff to lose his sight in one/both eye?" Answer; "He threw a punch at me." Even though he may initiate the assault, the law doesn't allow a disproportionate escalation of violence unless you can demonstrate your life was in danger. Women are more likely to be able to do this, but men get locked up. Trust me.

    I know, I know, wet blanket again.
    There are people, especially outside kenpo looking in that just don't understand proportional response. You try and stick me with a knife, or pull a gun and I can't get away from either situation, then yeah, making your eyeballs look like a couple of olives on a kids fingers at grandma's house on Thanksgiving is in play. Anything situation less that that, if you're a healthy adult male is unrealistic and stupid.
    Be careful what you say, some may take it the wrong way.

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    Default Re: Goggles for eye strike practice

    Dear JB:

    Your comment:

    "I have a hard time justifying maiming or killing someone because they pushed you"

    is a mis-statement of my original intent in this post. No one was advocating that this be done at all. My "goggle" comments related to training conditions in the dojo to avoid accidental injury. The particular block strike combination I was working on was a palm heel bypass block to a strike to an opponents eye. I would not expect anyone but an advanced student to deflect a straight right or left hand thrown with power towards the face.

    I hope this clarifies this situation for everyone.

    Nelson Kari

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    Default Re: Goggles for eye strike practice

    Consider me unskilled if you want....or maybe just plain mean, but I would poke an attacker in the eye or chop their throat in a skinny...

    Maybe some would consider it a tad extreme but I don't won't to run the risk that some stranger that I don't know is simply wanting to scrap and not trying to kill or maim me.

    I flunked Mind Reading 101.

    If you want to chance it and address an attacker with "kid gloves" that's your decision, but just as there are consequences for my decision there are cosequences for yours as well.

    ...judged by 12? ...carried by 6?

    I just don't have patience for any idiot looking for a fight I guess. The fact that they're looking actually irritates me more so than the fact that they may be actually trying to hurt me.... I know...I'm wierd.

    Anyway, if it came down to it and I was asked why I put his eye out I would simply say that it was an accident that occured during the fight. Oh well....that's what they get for attacking an innocent and otherwise peaceful citizen. LOL

    As far as the civil ramifications....I'll let my personal liability policy take care of that.

    **I'm not endorsing anyone else taking this sort of action and I reiterate that it is extremely important to be well aware of your state and local laws concerning self-defense **
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Goggles for eye strike practice

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Dear JB:

    Your comment:

    "I have a hard time justifying maiming or killing someone because they pushed you"

    is a mis-statement of my original intent in this post. No one was advocating that this be done at all. My "goggle" comments related to training conditions in the dojo to avoid accidental injury. The particular block strike combination I was working on was a palm heel bypass block to a strike to an opponents eye. I would not expect anyone but an advanced student to deflect a straight right or left hand thrown with power towards the face.

    I hope this clarifies this situation for everyone.

    Nelson Kari
    Was this for me? If so I said no such thing.

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    Default Re: Goggles for eye strike practice

    Quote Originally Posted by John Brewer View Post
    Was this for me? If so I said no such thing.
    No I think he meant me. And just to clarify I recognize Nelson wasn't suggesting you kill someone because they push you. My point is that is the very real consequence of some strikes. Teaching women to fight off a rapist is one thing, but doing the same thing because another man grabs your wrist seems excessive...

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    Default Re: Goggles for eye strike practice

    Any strike to the head can potentially kill.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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