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Thread: Why All Martial Arts Training Should Be More Like Marine Corps Martial Arts Program T

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    Post Why All Martial Arts Training Should Be More Like Marine Corps Martial Arts Program T

    I have trained in a few places but I have yet to find training that I have felt was all encompassing as the training I received while in the United States Marine Corps. I was fortunate enough to train in both L.I.N.E training and in the new MCMAP program. Here are some of the major reasons that I feel MCMAP is a superior way of training over other systems.

    This is an insert from the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program training website...

    Safety. Training must be tough and realistic but safe. MCAP focuses on immersing their participants in as realistic a situation as possible without sacrificing safety.


    Realistic Training. Function over form must be stressed. All physical training supports the physical requirements of combat and possesses battlefield or street use applicability. While combat or a street fight can never be fully duplicated in training, MCMAP ensures that the training is as realistic as possible without sacrificing safety. The training is progressive, balanced, and contains variety. Some of the situations that participants are put under are fighting in a waist high stream or on a beach where movement is limited. Also, situations consisted of one person against 2, 3, or more assailants. Often times, the training involves goals such as guarding the safety of one or more other people while taking on more than one assailant.

    Tough Training.The training conducted is designed to be tough in order to maximize the principle of overload. Toughness should not be confused with meanness. Training challenges the individual and develops both physical and mental toughness. It is not hazing. All drills and exercises have a stated purpose that improves fitness, develops toughness, increases ability and skills, and enhances cohesion and esprit de corps.

    Belt Level Specific.For every belt level there are prescribed distances for movements, repetitions for exercises techniques and time limits assigned as well. In the beginning exercises and drills may be performed for 10 to 15 minutes at a time. As the participants advance so does the time the participants must last. Once Black Belt level is achieved the participant is expected to be able to sustain a proficient level of performance for as long as 30 minutes to an hour.




    Conditioning Drills and Exercise.

    The conditioning program is designed to be used in conjunction with other forms of physical fitness training and as part of the overall training program. These drills and exercises are standardized for each of the belt levels. At times participants are placed in highly stressful and draining situations such as confined quarters that are kept at high temperatures (90 degrees Fahrenheit or more) and the participant is expected to perform for an extended time period with no rest. This pushes the participants to a new level of endurance.

    Martial Arts Drills. Martial arts drills and exercises such as the bull-in-the-ring and bag drills focus solely on the martial arts techniques that they have learned. They allow participants to practice the techniques repeatedly or against opponents of different sizes and weights. This is a way a training session during which new martial arts physical discipline techniques are introduced can be done to provide a measure of physical training.

    Martial Arts Cohesion Exercise. The Cohesion Exercises, formally known as “rooms” are only conducted with the instructor. They are intended to place Marines in a stressful situation where the only way to get through is to pull together and work as a team. These exercises are designed to teach participants how to work as a single unit against multiple assailants. Often times the assailants are armed with either conventional weapon are make-shift weapons such as sticks, boards, broken glass etc.

    Physical Training Integration Training. Integration training is multi-faceted. It puts together individual techniques into practical fighting combinations. A simple bag drill where we combine the different punches, upper body strikes, and lower body strikes is the simplest example of this type of integration training.
    Bear pit drills, bull-in-the-ring and running trails while having to defend against attacks. All these exercises enhance muscular and cardiovascular endurance, flexibility, strength and speed. These combine martial arts techniques with realistic physical exercises.

    Bear pit and bull-in-the-ring exercises teach the participants to learn how to survive in many-on-many situations similar to a situation that might arise during riots or bar fights. It raises awareness or the participants’ surroundings while defending themselves.
    Devil Dog Mark
    Hawaiian Kempo & Okinawan Kubudo

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    Wink Re: Why All Martial Arts Training Should Be More Like Marine Corps Martial Arts Progr

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Dear DD:

    If you want to train tough, train tough and get some folks together that think like you. That what I do in my neck of the woods.

    Nelson Kari
    That is actually what I have ended up doing. We put together a group that meets every weekend (for the most part) composed of people that want to push the limits and play with hypothetical situations. But, even these group meetings are not a intense as the MCMAP program. It has helped each of us with our endurance and we have been able to do a few things that we can not do during class (which has children and people with limitations).

    What you speak of is the reason I believe their should be individual classes for children, seniors, or people with limited abilities. But, I also think that unless people are pushed past their comfort zone they will never know what they are truly capable of. In the Marine Corps we used to use a couple of sayings that tend to strike home for me. The first one being "No One Ever Drowned In Sweat." And the second is "The body can endure 125% of what the mind tells us we can." In otherwords, the mind is designed to tell you to quit at a point before the point we actually can endure. But each time you push past that point you make the point you can reach further.

    It is much like the people that train for triathlons or marathons. They push themselves farther and farther until their bodies become used to and capable of a new distance or speed. Then they push past that until they are capable of completing their goal.

    While you can not push a child or a senior citizen as hard as a young adult you can still help them to push past their normal abilities. If this is done gradually then no harm is done. Also, I think that MA instructors may not be giving people credit. If you explain to them why you are pushing them I think the majority of them will not leave because they want to get to a new level otherwise they would not have choose to undergo martial arts training in the first place.

    Just my 1 or 2 cents...
    Devil Dog Mark
    Hawaiian Kempo & Okinawan Kubudo

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    Default Re: Why All Martial Arts Training Should Be More Like Marine Corps Martial Arts Progr

    Your "MCMAAP" or whatever is only teaching you some basics with a lot of "attitude". It's a great foundation, but, you should seek more sophisticated training when you can.
    And I hope I don't sound like a smartass, but, no one "way" is the "way".
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    Michael Huffman
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    Default Re: Why All Martial Arts Training Should Be More Like Marine Corps Martial Arts Progr

    There are things in what you've written here that I agree with and some that I do not.

    I agree that at a certain point in training the intensity and diversity of expeiences needs to get ramped up to continue to challenge our ability to cope, adapt and execute creative problem solving on the fly. THAT is a very good approach. BUT: I sort of agree with what Michael said. Though I'd not call it a "Foundation"....because I don't feel that this would be something that someone who's blue belt or lower should EVER do, because it would breed bad habits and ingrain motion that would be counter-productive from them reaching more sophisticated and mature levels of ability and understanding. To introduce this training before...maybe a year and a half to two years of solid/consistent training....would be (in my opinion) counter productive.

    The exercises/drills you mention are GREAT tools for doing this!
    But like I said, it needs to come once you're foundation in Kenpo/Kempo is Very solid and consistent!

    Extreme-realism and what the JKD/BJJ crowd call "Alive-ness" is something that is frequently missing from MANY people's approach to martial arts in general. BUT ALSO: I don't think it should be a 'main-staple' either, but just another ingredient in your cultivation.

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    Default Re: Why All Martial Arts Training Should Be More Like Marine Corps Martial Arts Progr

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael151 View Post
    And I hope I don't sound like a smartass, but, no one "way" is the "way".
    You certainly don't come off as sounding like a smartass, and I agree no one way is the way. So I do agree with you! I just think to many martial arts instructors have become scared of liability or scaring off students and have gotten too far off of the topic of preparing for a "real" attack. I know an instructor that acts "aggressive" to his students from the second class begins until the class ends and he has a whole lot of students. In fact, most of his students thrive on the fact that he is so aggressive in his training. It makes them prepared and they respect his program because he is constantly reminding them that someone that attacks them is not going to be nice so training should not be "nice".

    In fact, I have seen him break women down to the point where they cry and then we will say things like "your attacker will not care whether you are crying and they will no let up just because you shed a few tears". It encourages them to become both physically and mentally tough so that they can survive a real attack.
    Devil Dog Mark
    Hawaiian Kempo & Okinawan Kubudo

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    Default Re: Why All Martial Arts Training Should Be More Like Marine Corps Martial Arts Progr

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John View Post
    I agree that at a certain point in training the intensity and diversity of expeiences needs to get ramped up to continue to challenge our ability to cope, adapt and execute creative problem solving on the fly. THAT is a very good approach. BUT: I sort of agree with what Michael said. Though I'd not call it a "Foundation"....because I don't feel that this would be something that someone who's blue belt or lower should EVER do, because it would breed bad habits and ingrain motion that would be counter-productive from them reaching more sophisticated and mature levels of ability and understanding. To introduce this training before...maybe a year and a half to two years of solid/consistent training....would be (in my opinion) counter productive.

    Extreme-realism and what the JKD/BJJ crowd call "Alive-ness" is something that is frequently missing from MANY people's approach to martial arts in general. BUT ALSO: I don't think it should be a 'main-staple' either, but just another ingredient in your cultivation.

    Your Brother
    John
    I agree there is a point where the average person should be exposed to it and it should not be done immediately upon starting. I agree that blue/green (depending on the system's belt structure) is a good place for this to start. Especially having to defend against multiple attackers. But I think the mental training and the physical training should begin even earlier. This way once they reach the point where realism and multiple attackers is a regular part of the curriculum they are better prepared.

    So yes, for the most part I agree with what you have said. I just wanted to emphasis that MA instructors should not be scared to put more realism in their instruction. Believe it or not the majority of students will thrive on it and in the end will thank them for the fact that they will then be more prepared for a real situation because of it.
    Devil Dog Mark
    Hawaiian Kempo & Okinawan Kubudo

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    Default Re: Why All Martial Arts Training Should Be More Like Marine Corps Martial Arts Progr

    Quote Originally Posted by Devildogmrk View Post
    I have trained in a few places but I have yet to find training that I have felt was all encompassing as the training I received while in the United States Marine Corps. I was fortunate enough to train in both L.I.N.E training and in the new MCMAP program. Here are some of the major reasons that I feel MCMAP is a superior way of training over other systems.

    This is an insert from the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program training website...

    Safety. Training must be tough and realistic but safe. MCAP focuses on immersing their participants in as realistic a situation as possible without sacrificing safety.


    Realistic Training. Function over form must be stressed. All physical training supports the physical requirements of combat and possesses battlefield or street use applicability. While combat or a street fight can never be fully duplicated in training, MCMAP ensures that the training is as realistic as possible without sacrificing safety. The training is progressive, balanced, and contains variety. Some of the situations that participants are put under are fighting in a waist high stream or on a beach where movement is limited. Also, situations consisted of one person against 2, 3, or more assailants. Often times, the training involves goals such as guarding the safety of one or more other people while taking on more than one assailant.

    Tough Training.The training conducted is designed to be tough in order to maximize the principle of overload. Toughness should not be confused with meanness. Training challenges the individual and develops both physical and mental toughness. It is not hazing. All drills and exercises have a stated purpose that improves fitness, develops toughness, increases ability and skills, and enhances cohesion and esprit de corps.

    Belt Level Specific.For every belt level there are prescribed distances for movements, repetitions for exercises techniques and time limits assigned as well. In the beginning exercises and drills may be performed for 10 to 15 minutes at a time. As the participants advance so does the time the participants must last. Once Black Belt level is achieved the participant is expected to be able to sustain a proficient level of performance for as long as 30 minutes to an hour.




    Conditioning Drills and Exercise.

    The conditioning program is designed to be used in conjunction with other forms of physical fitness training and as part of the overall training program. These drills and exercises are standardized for each of the belt levels. At times participants are placed in highly stressful and draining situations such as confined quarters that are kept at high temperatures (90 degrees Fahrenheit or more) and the participant is expected to perform for an extended time period with no rest. This pushes the participants to a new level of endurance.

    Martial Arts Drills. Martial arts drills and exercises such as the bull-in-the-ring and bag drills focus solely on the martial arts techniques that they have learned. They allow participants to practice the techniques repeatedly or against opponents of different sizes and weights. This is a way a training session during which new martial arts physical discipline techniques are introduced can be done to provide a measure of physical training.

    Martial Arts Cohesion Exercise. The Cohesion Exercises, formally known as “rooms” are only conducted with the instructor. They are intended to place Marines in a stressful situation where the only way to get through is to pull together and work as a team. These exercises are designed to teach participants how to work as a single unit against multiple assailants. Often times the assailants are armed with either conventional weapon are make-shift weapons such as sticks, boards, broken glass etc.

    Physical Training Integration Training. Integration training is multi-faceted. It puts together individual techniques into practical fighting combinations. A simple bag drill where we combine the different punches, upper body strikes, and lower body strikes is the simplest example of this type of integration training.
    Bear pit drills, bull-in-the-ring and running trails while having to defend against attacks. All these exercises enhance muscular and cardiovascular endurance, flexibility, strength and speed. These combine martial arts techniques with realistic physical exercises.

    Bear pit and bull-in-the-ring exercises teach the participants to learn how to survive in many-on-many situations similar to a situation that might arise during riots or bar fights. It raises awareness or the participants’ surroundings while defending themselves.
    The same old story.

    There is a major difference between "soldier's training" and commercial school training.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: Why All Martial Arts Training Should Be More Like Marine Corps Martial Arts Progr

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    While I agree with many aspects of the corps philisophy the plain and simple fact remains that if the training gets too tough we will be throwing out the people that need help the most.
    If you can't teach them like the marine corps, will it actually help them much?

    Or will it be a placebo?

    Dr. John M. La Tourrett

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    Default Re: Why All Martial Arts Training Should Be More Like Marine Corps Martial Arts Progr

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael151 View Post
    Your "MCMAAP" or whatever is only teaching you some basics with a lot of "attitude". It's a great foundation, but, you should seek more sophisticated training when you can.
    And I hope I don't sound like a smartass, but, no one "way" is the "way".
    I actually love the marine corps attitude, the special forces attitude and the SOF mentality, in most cases.

    Much more than I do classes framed for children and families.

    Ugh!

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: Why All Martial Arts Training Should Be More Like Marine Corps Martial Arts Progr

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John View Post
    I agree that at a certain point in training the intensity and diversity of expeiences needs to get ramped up to continue to challenge our ability to cope, adapt and execute creative problem solving on the fly. THAT is a very good approach. BUT:

    To introduce this training before...maybe a year and a half to two years of solid/consistent training....would be (in my opinion) counter productive.
    The word "BUT" negates everything that goes before it!

    To me, waiting a year and a half BEFORE giving them valid training is NOT valid nor does it give the client what he signed up for, in most cases.

    Just my own opinion, of course.

    Valid ATTITUDE training, done in a reasonable way, with safety constraints, is reasonable.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: Why All Martial Arts Training Should Be More Like Marine Corps Martial Arts Progr

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    The word "BUT" negates everything that goes before it!
    To me, waiting a year and a half BEFORE giving them valid training is NOT valid nor does it give the client what he signed up for, in most cases.
    Just my own opinion, of course.
    Valid ATTITUDE training, done in a reasonable way, with safety constraints, is reasonable.
    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    no

    That's an old saying, but it's not always true. For instance here when I used the word "But" it was to introduce a caveat...
    according to Merriam-Webster Online a caveat is
    1 a: a warning enjoining one from certain acts or practices b: an explanation to prevent misinterpretation c: a modifying or cautionary detail to be considered when evaluating, interpreting, or doing something
    simple as that.

    My caveat was that I DO believe that the super intense training he's speaking of is good and useful (I can't negate what I also affirm) BUT (here's the caveat) I believe that it's best to give such intense training later after a good foundation in the given martial art is firmly established.

    Also: You're taking my words and twisting them to say something that I did not say. I did not say that a student should not be given "Valid" training until a year and a half after they begin. I said that I believe that this form of training that he's talking about is Very valid (See, I affirmed it again) but (caveat) only once a solid and consistent foundation of skill, good form and foundational understanding is firmly established. I did NOT say that the student wouldn't receive "valid training" for a year and a half. Not in the slightest. I consider
    a solid and consistent foundation of skill, good form and foundational understanding is firmly established
    to be very invaluable training crucial to good development. I never said it wouldn't be intense and difficult either. A student should be challenged at every level.
    But (That's a caveat) I believe that taking them to that 'near special forces' type of intensity ....given TOO soon.... would be like taking a first month weight trainer and demanding that they do every lift at 90% of their max to failure. It would do more damage than good, foster poor technique and form and wost of all increase the odds of an injury exponentially.
    Valid ATTITUDE training, done in a reasonable way, with safety constraints, is reasonable.
    I couldn't agree more!
    One doesn't need to get to marine corps level of intensity to provide it though!

    Your Brother
    John
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    Default Re: Why All Martial Arts Training Should Be More Like Marine Corps Martial Arts Progr

    I'm going to start wearing a "smokey" hat to class and yelling insults at my students.

    "Did you recently suffer head trauma or were you born stupid!?!?!"
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Why All Martial Arts Training Should Be More Like Marine Corps Martial Arts Progr

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    I'm going to start wearing a "smokey" hat to class and yelling insults at my students.

    "Did you recently suffer head trauma or were you born stupid!?!?!"
    OH......we've got a ********** Comedian men!!!
    I suppose you think yer pretty funny?
    Is that so? ...........FUNNY MAN??

    Your Brother (who WORKS for a living)
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    Default Re: Why All Martial Arts Training Should Be More Like Marine Corps Martial Arts Progr

    While I would agree with this to some level, many people will just think a person running a boot camp is an egotistical ass if he were to attempt the same "breaking down" of a person in a civilian setting. Exercise regimens, yes, hellacious drills and hard training, yes. Verbal berating and ordering around? No. You'd get your ass handed to you in short order, lose students, or both. There are other components to USMC boot camp besides rigorous physical training, just wanted to make that distinction.

    On the flip side, I firmly believe in helping level headed adults find (not instilling) the mental capacity to engage up to the kill. Many adult males have a greater propensity than women to possess this level of primal aggression, though some women can bring it on provided the appropriate impetus (threaten their children, watch their eyes, you'll see the animal in them). I think mindset is key. Coupled with rigorous and effective physical training, this can bring the civilian to an appropriate state of warriorship, provided the person has the drive.

    Good topic,

    Steven Brown
    UKF

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    Default Re: Why All Martial Arts Training Should Be More Like Marine Corps Martial Arts Progr

    Quote Originally Posted by bujuts View Post
    While I would agree with this to some level, many people will just think a person running a boot camp is an egotistical ass if he were to attempt the same "breaking down" of a person in a civilian setting. Exercise regimens, yes, hellacious drills and hard training, yes. Verbal berating and ordering around? No. You'd get your ass handed to you in short order, lose students, or both. There are other components to USMC boot camp besides rigorous physical training, just wanted to make that distinction.

    On the flip side, I firmly believe in helping level headed adults find (not instilling) the mental capacity to engage up to the kill. Many adult males have a greater propensity than women to possess this level of aggression, though some women can bring it on provided the appropriate impetus (threaten their children, watch their eyes, you'll see the animal in them). I think mindset is key. Coupled with rigorous and effective physical training, this can bring the civilian to an appropriate state of warriorship, provided the person has the drive.

    Good topic,

    Steven Brown
    UKF
    EXACTLY!!!
    WOW... GOOD post!

    Your Brother
    John

    PS: "On the flip side" is a FINE caveat!
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    Default Re: Why All Martial Arts Training Should Be More Like Marine Corps Martial Arts Progr

    So, is this the real question:

    Is it necessary to conduct martial art training in a manner that produces a trained killer in order for the student to be effective in self-defense?
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Why All Martial Arts Training Should Be More Like Marine Corps Martial Arts Progr

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    So, is this the real question:

    Is it necessary to conduct martial art training in a manner that produces a trained killer in order for the student to be effective in self-defense?
    NO!

    Our skills can and often DO surpass lethal capacity, but the level and quality of 'trained killer' is not only NOT necessary but in our society MOST OFTEN (not always) ....undesirable. Mind you, police, correctional officers, military, body guards, trained sentries...etc.. These folks train differently because their desired end result and USE of their skills is going to be different. Plain and simple. But most often their vocations see to it that their conditioning (mental & physical) and their skills & skill applications are at a level that's par for their needs! Kenpo, or martial arts training generally, is more than adequate for skill development...and if they need "Further"....they will get it.

    But for the common citizen? NO. They can be a highly trained, skilled and able martial artist....able to adapt and overcome in most any circumstance with what many Kenpo or martial arts schools have to offer.
    Not all. We all know the McDojo's / McDojang's exist.

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    Default Re: Why All Martial Arts Training Should Be More Like Marine Corps Martial Arts Progr

    I agree, but I'm going to play devils advocate for a minute just see what you think. muahahahaha

    Does our training need be taken up a notch with more modern threats like that of MS-13? These guys are spreading like wildfire throughout the U.S.

    These guys aren't your common thugs, they come at you with machete's! They have no respect for authority and have been known to stake out local law enforcment to see where they live in order to take revenge against them or use scare tactics to keep the "heat" off.

    If that's the case, what do you think they'd do to the average Joe that slapped a member of theirs around defending their wife and kid?

    In short, our society has seemingly become more violent...so shouldn't our training be taken up a notch to deal with it?
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Thumbs up Re: Why All Martial Arts Training Should Be More Like Marine Corps Martial Arts Progr

    I think "aliveness" is great. I also think training realistically is an amazing asset that should be in any martial artist' tool box. I do however, think that a foundation or "base" needs to be in place before reaching that level.

    I remember learning my rifle in basic training. We did not roll out and start busting caps in commies the first day. We learned breathing, stances, sight picture, trigger squeeze, malfunction drills, dismantling and cleaning, etc. etc. THEN we went out to shoot and some of us were very effective having never fired a weapon before based on a decent set of basics.

    So in short....basics first...combat later. Not too much later though
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    Default Re: Why All Martial Arts Training Should Be More Like Marine Corps Martial Arts Progr

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    The same old story.

    There is a major difference between "soldier's training" and commercial school training.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    I was just about to chip in my two cents regarding training for soldiers and law enforcement officers versus training for the general public - especially families and children - when I read your post. I couldn't agree more with your assessment.

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