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Thread: What does THRUSTING SALUTE teach US?

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    blfycdq is offline
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    Default What does THRUSTING SALUTE teach US?

    What does THRUSTING SALUTE teach Us as an Orange Belt? Black Belt?

    --What to do or what not to do?
    --Principles, if so which ones? and what might be the order of importance.
    --How might THRUSTING SALUTE be executed differently in order to achieve better results?

    How are you executing the above in your class and why?

    Curious,
    Regards,
    Carl

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    Default Re: What does THRUSTING SALUTE teach US?

    Quote Originally Posted by blfycdq View Post
    What does THRUSTING SALUTE teach Us as an Orange Belt? Black Belt?

    --What to do or what not to do?
    --Principles, if so which ones? and what might be the order of importance.
    --How might THRUSTING SALUTE be executed differently in order to achieve better results?

    How are you executing the above in your class and why?

    Curious,
    Regards,
    Carl
    Borrowed force
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    Default Re: What does THRUSTING SALUTE teach US?

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    Borrowed force
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    Nowhere in there did you say "a defense against a front kick". Thank you. Very nice.

    D.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: What does THRUSTING SALUTE teach US?

    I was always interested in the angle at which we throw the kick and land with tyhe palm. When the block is thrown I've been taught that the attacker's body will be moved to the 11 ish position. I've seen a lot of people attack straight to 12:00.

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    Default Re: What does THRUSTING SALUTE teach US?

    I have a question that I haven't thought of until now, and I'm probably missing something blatantly obvious.

    One of our yellow belt techniques is deflecing hammer, a right thrusting ball kick. In this case, we use a downward block to deflect- or guide- their leg just to our side as we shuffle in and drop the dum dums with an elbow while allowing their forward momentum to give more force to the blow.

    In Thrusting salute techniqe, which is usually practiced as a step-through front kick, we block hard with a downward block, forcing their legs to split and open a shot for a launching kick to the groin.

    My question is this: Why would we not use the deflecting principle of a guiding downward block on the step through kick? To me, it seems like we would get more impact value if they were using a step-through kick because they would have much more forward momentum. The kick would be harder and it would seem like it would be easier to guide to your side than striking it hard enough to rotate your attacker.

    It also seems like it would be easier to rotate the attacker if he didn't have his momentum heading more in your direction, such as the case in a step-through kick.

    Like I said, I'm probably missing something really obvious here. It's just a question that I popped into my head as I sit here and read this thread.
    Last edited by Benny-AR; 10-16-2007 at 04:18 PM. Reason: typos

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    Default Re: What does THRUSTING SALUTE teach US?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Brewer View Post
    I was always interested in the angle at which we throw the kick and land with tyhe palm. When the block is thrown I've been taught that the attacker's body will be moved to the 11 ish position. I've seen a lot of people attack straight to 12:00.
    That angle is very important in the execution of this tech. If 12:00 is the original position of the attacker just prior to the attack then your kick & palm should be directed toward 11:00.

    You end up, due to the block and your own foot maneuver, at a 90 degree angle to the attacker's centerline. That's a very important point because when you attack at that angle it's VERY easy to knock anyone down. The best way to prevent falling backwards would be to step to the rear to compensate for the force. BUT: Your snapping front ball kick to the groin should cause their head to pop up and forward, disrupting their base and making it HIGHLY improbable that they'll be able to step backwards.

    That's one of my favorite parts of this technique, the initial angle of deviation sets up a very tasty angle of entry/angle of incidence for your response!!

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    Default Re: What does THRUSTING SALUTE teach US?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benny-AR View Post
    I have a question that I haven't thought of until now, and I'm probably missing something blatantly obvious.

    One of our yellow belt techniques is deflecing hammer, a right thrusting ball kick. In this case, we use a downblock to deflect- or guide- their leg just to our side as we shuffle in and drop the dum dums with an elbow while allowing their forward momentum to give more force to the blow.

    In Thrusting salute techniqe, which is usually practiced as a step-through front kick, we block hard with a downlard block, forcing their legs to split and open a shot for a launching kick to the groin.

    My question is this: Why would we not use the deflecting principle of a guiding downward block on the step through kick? To me, it seems like we would get more impact value if they were using a step-through kick because they would have much more forward momentum. The kick would be harder and it would seem like it would be easier to guide to your side than striking it hard enough to rotate your attacker.

    It also seems like it would be easier to rotate the attacker if he didn't have his momentum heading more in your direction, such as the case in a step-through kick.

    Like I said, I'm probably missing something really obvious here. It's just a question that I popped into my head as I sit here and read this thread.
    The purpose of the block in Deflecting Hammer is different from the purpose of the block in Thrusting Salute.

    In Deflecting Hammer, the purpose is to put the attacker in a position where you can blast him with the elbow, which is a short-range weapon. By doing that "deflecting" block, you ensure that a) the attacker will be close enough for you to get that elbow in, and b) the attacker will still have forward momentum, which as you said, contributes to the force of your elbow smashing into him.

    In Thrusting Salute, if you did this same block, the attacker would be too close to you to effectively kick him. The kick is a longer range weapon, so by doing a regular block, you open up the target (the groin), and by stepping back to 4:30 with that block, you put yourself in a good range and at a good angle to rebound with the kick.
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    Default Re: What does THRUSTING SALUTE teach US?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    Nowhere in there did you say "a defense against a front kick". Thank you. Very nice.

    D.
    Its against a kick? Oh thought is was against a punch, just kidding
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    Benny-AR is offline
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    Default Re: What does THRUSTING SALUTE teach US?

    Quote Originally Posted by domino3700 View Post
    The purpose of the block in Deflecting Hammer is different from the purpose of the block in Thrusting Salute.

    In Deflecting Hammer, the purpose is to put the attacker in a position where you can blast him with the elbow, which is a short-range weapon. By doing that "deflecting" block, you ensure that a) the attacker will be close enough for you to get that elbow in, and b) the attacker will still have forward momentum, which as you said, contributes to the force of your elbow smashing into him.

    In Thrusting Salute, if you did this same block, the attacker would be too close to you to effectively kick him. The kick is a longer range weapon, so by doing a regular block, you open up the target (the groin), and by stepping back to 4:30 with that block, you put yourself in a good range and at a good angle to rebound with the kick.
    Yeah, I know. But in my head, I can't come to a conclusion as to why the techniques are placed with the attacks. I'm wondering why they aren't exactly the opposite. The attacker has more forward momentum in a step-through kick, so he the elbow would have more impact value if we were to use deflecting hammer. It's also harder to block someone stepping so that they spin in the opposite direction of their momentum, which is what we do in Thrusting Salute on a step-through kick.

    Whereas it would be much easier to strike hard enough with a block to open the groin if it were not thrusting, and because their momentum wouldn't be coming forward, we wouldn't have to change stances toward 11:00 to get the kick in. I don't know. Maybe I'm thinking too much.

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    Default Re: What does THRUSTING SALUTE teach US?

    Perhaps a kick with more forward momentum would actually take them past the optimal point for the elbow strike in DH?

    I know that, at least in the way Doc Chapel teaches ThS, you use the step thorugh motion against the attacker by making him step even more than he intended. This sets up some terrible alignment problems in the attacker which he never gets a chance to recover from.


    But, I'm not actually sure that the attacks should be classified different. Can you read, in the heat of the moment, which type of kick this will be? it seems to me a more important distinction is the movement to outside or inside. if you need to move outside the kick do DH, if you need to move inside, use ThS.
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    Default Re: What does THRUSTING SALUTE teach US?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    Perhaps a kick with more forward momentum would actually take them past the optimal point for the elbow strike in DH?

    I know that, at least in the way Doc Chapel teaches ThS, you use the step thorugh motion against the attacker by making him step even more than he intended. This sets up some terrible alignment problems in the attacker which he never gets a chance to recover from.


    But, I'm not actually sure that the attacks should be classified different. Can you read, in the heat of the moment, which type of kick this will be? it seems to me a more important distinction is the movement to outside or inside. if you need to move outside the kick do DH, if you need to move inside, use ThS.
    The question is which way did you step ?
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    Default Re: What does THRUSTING SALUTE teach US?

    Benny-AR,

    Do you know the technique 'Intellectual Departure'? I wonder if that block might hold an answer to your question.

    Concerning Deflecting Hammer / Thrusting Salute, I'm wondering what the effect of the block you suggest when used on inside the attacker? It would seem to me, that if I used a downward diagonal block (ala Deflecting Hammer) on the inside of a right kick, I would be pulling the bad guys center line right into me. ~ something about that just seems like a bad idea.


    For me, one of the keys to watch when someone is learning the technique, is the body position when the left outward palm down block is completed. If the practitioner is in a Left Forward Bow facing 10:30, with their left hand palm down in front of their left knee, and their right fist cocked at their hip, all is well in the universe.

    I often see students in a side horse, facing 1:30, with both hands in front of their left hip. Ughh!

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    Default Re: What does THRUSTING SALUTE teach US?

    Quote Originally Posted by blfycdq View Post
    What does THRUSTING SALUTE teach Us as an Orange Belt? Black Belt?
    TS teaches an orange belt how to defend against a right front-thrusting kick.

    TS teaches a black-belt how to kick the s**t out of somebody

    Quote Originally Posted by blfycdq View Post
    --What to do or what not to do?
    Don't listen to people who say 'that's not the way Mr Parker taught it' or 'that's not how it's written in infinite insights'

    Quote Originally Posted by blfycdq View Post
    --Principles, if so which ones? and what might be the order of importance.
    are you an orange belt, a purple belt, a blue-belt or a black-belt?

    Quote Originally Posted by blfycdq View Post
    --How might THRUSTING SALUTE be executed differently in order to achieve better results?
    Don't step directly back to a left neutral bow. Instead:

    1. Pivot your hips to 11.00. Push-drag back to a left-forward bow facing 11.00. As you hit that forward-bow, PAM your left foot and execute a right inside-downward palm-up block, with a left slap-check (BAM) to your right shoulder.

    2. Execute a right downward block and rebound to a straight right-palm-heel to 11 as you pivot to a left neutral-bow.

    3. The attacker's leg has been blocked out very wide because your *blocks* were correctly executed.

    4. Pivot to a transitional forward bow. Skip forwards with the left foot and execute a right front-snap kick to the groin, quickly followed by a right thrusting palm-heel to the side of the face as you plant into a right neutral-bow. In other words, plough into him.

    Quote Originally Posted by blfycdq View Post
    How are you executing the above in your class and why?
    As above. Because its more effective.

    cheers,

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    Default Re: What does THRUSTING SALUTE teach US?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benny-AR View Post
    My question is this: Why would we not use the deflecting principle of a guiding downward block on the step through kick? To me, it seems like we would get more impact value if they were using a step-through kick because they would have much more forward momentum. The kick would be harder and it would seem like it would be easier to guide to your side than striking it hard enough to rotate your attacker.
    If you don't control their depth+width the attacker can easily follow through with a punch (which he was probably planning on landing anyhow). Blocking them out wide means that their center-line is wide open (vulnerable) and their ability to crash into you with punches is gone.

    It also seems like it would be easier to rotate the attacker if he didn't have his momentum heading more in your direction, such as the case in a step-through kick.
    not sure I understand this point.
    Last edited by JamesB; 10-16-2007 at 07:08 PM.

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    Default Re: What does THRUSTING SALUTE teach US?

    Quote Originally Posted by domino3700 View Post
    The purpose of the block in Deflecting Hammer is different from the purpose of the block in Thrusting Salute.

    In Deflecting Hammer, the purpose is to put the attacker in a position where you can blast him with the elbow, which is a short-range weapon. By doing that "deflecting" block, you ensure that a) the attacker will be close enough for you to get that elbow in, and b) the attacker will still have forward momentum, which as you said, contributes to the force of your elbow smashing into him.
    Why not use decent footwork to get closer/further away from the attacker, rather than executing a 'block' that doesn't do much and keeps the attacker close to you. If you don't control the attacker's width (by blocking him out wide) he'll punch you in the face.

    Quote Originally Posted by domino3700 View Post
    In Thrusting Salute, if you did this same block, the attacker would be too close to you to effectively kick him. The kick is a longer range weapon, so by doing a regular block, you open up the target (the groin), and by stepping back to 4:30 with that block, you put yourself in a good range and at a good angle to rebound with the kick.
    good footwork should be used to once more put you at the optimal position to counter-attack. If you are too close/too far away then use your feet to compenstate. You'll find your technique becoming more effective. But I agree, doing a crappy block in this technique is asking for trouble.

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    Default Re: What does THRUSTING SALUTE teach US?

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    Why not use decent footwork to get closer/further away from the attacker, rather than executing a 'block' that doesn't do much and keeps the attacker close to you. If you don't control the attacker's width (by blocking him out wide) he'll punch you in the face.
    Good footwork is important, and you are right in saying that this will help gauge distance either closer to or further away from the attacker. As for the block in DH, it's used in conjunction with the footwork. Good footwork is good and good blocking is good, but both of them together are great.

    The idea of the deflecting block is to keep the attacker closer to you, and put them in a better position to elbow strike. As for the punch that could come after that kick is blocked, we fix that by inserting a left inward check before the elbow, which stops any punch that might come (or jams the attacker's arm just in case) and clears a path for the elbow. Larry Tatum actually talks about the blocking concepts of DH in a video on his web site, http://www.ltatum.com/movies/Week5/T...WeekMedW5.html

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    good footwork should be used to once more put you at the optimal position to counter-attack. If you are too close/too far away then use your feet to compenstate. You'll find your technique becoming more effective. But I agree, doing a crappy block in this technique is asking for trouble.
    Again, I agree with you that good footwork is important. It should be used in unison with these other elements. Like with Thrusting Salute, we try not to plant down for too long when we step to 4:30, it should be more of a step back to launch that kick immediately at the groin. Planting for more than a brief second makes it harder to rebound into that step through front kick.
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    Default Re: What does THRUSTING SALUTE teach US?

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    Borrowed force
    Opposing forces
    Reverse Gravational marriage
    Catapulting
    Getting of the line of attack
    body alignment
    timming

    And/or

    Back up mass or Marriage of gravity on a hoziaontal plane
    "You can't account for everything, but you should account for the reasonably probable. Unfortunately for the unknowledgeable, those never ending 'what if's' will choke your thought process to death with useless information." - Doc

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    Default Re: What does THRUSTING SALUTE teach US?

    Josh does a nice job with this in his "On the Mat" series....

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0
    "You can't account for everything, but you should account for the reasonably probable. Unfortunately for the unknowledgeable, those never ending 'what if's' will choke your thought process to death with useless information." - Doc

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    Default Re: What does THRUSTING SALUTE teach US?

    timming combined with the range of our opponent's natural weapons might be a theme of Thrusting Salute.

    Once the initial natural weapon is blocked, diverted, checked..we have a small time gap to strike in order to nullify the continued attack.

    If the attack is a kick, then we must strike with our right kick prior to our opponent's right foot hitting the floor so that we can hit our target while our opponent is open.

    So in the above, what can be the target? and at what point do we access the target? and at what range?

    -Carl

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    Default Re: What does THRUSTING SALUTE teach US?

    Quote Originally Posted by blfycdq View Post
    If the attack is a kick, then we must strike with our right kick prior to our opponent's right foot hitting the floor so that we can hit our target while our opponent is open.
    -Carl
    dang, are you really that fast? I'm not, not going to try to be.

    The attacker may be vulnerable at that moment, but _after_ his foot lands (deeper than where he expected it to) as he adjusts I believe he is actually more vulnerable to being struck because of the muscle assigment from trying to regain a stable posture. When you add in the depth control that James talked about (straight right arm) he will probably be scrambling to just find (something that feels to him like) stable footing. The kick, imho, is just the final prep for the palm heel that is the real finish.
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