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Thread: Kenpo on the ground

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    Default Kenpo on the ground

    How many fights end on the ground.. Lots. How many actually have tried your tecs whilst on the ground, say in the mount position. We've done this and for obvious reasons the equation formula comes into play.
    If you've not tried it. Please do, and tell about what you find out.

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    Default Re: Kenpo on the ground

    My first Kempo teacher did a lot of ground work, but the system he taught me was more akin to jujutsu. Although, he also stressed how important it was to stay off the ground. What i learned from it was, the way you do things standing up does not always work when you're lying on the ground, but, the principles we learned while standing were applicable to what i did on the ground.

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    Default Re: Kenpo on the ground

    i thought for sure we would hear more stories of Kenpo practitioners delving into the black art of ground fighting.

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    Default Re: Kenpo on the ground

    First let me give you my perspective: 3 years of Shaolin kempo (5th kyu) and 6 months of BJJ.

    My experience has been that many of the techniques of stand-up fighting are just not applicable on the ground. And many of the ground-fighting techniques are not applicable when standing up.

    Sure you can abstract the principles to a point where they do make sense, where there is some congruency, but at that level of abstraction I'm not sure there is any value. For example, controlling the range (standup) is similar to controlling the space (ground). Each is critical to success in their respective activity, but how much of what you know (and can do) about controlling range is relevant to the control of space in a grappling situation, or vice versa? Not much, IMHO. Yes, you can say that this is a principle in common, but what is the value of stating that? Much better to just go train how to control space on the ground.

    Blocks and strikes... looking at the mount and the guard, where the relative alignment of the 2 bodies resembles the alignment they share when standing up, you can see that the blocks and strikes that are effective when standing up can be translated for ground work and it makes some sense to investigate that. But when you re-align the bodies into other positions - side control, north-south, etc it gets further from the familiar.
    But I think that there are some things here that can translate from standup to ground very well, such as : reading the opponent's preparation for a strike. For example, one thing we train is the ability to sense what your attacker is doing with one part of his body through being in contact with another part. If I am touching your right arm I can feel when you move your left leg. This skill is very useful in grappling, the challenge is being able to filter out all oft he inforamtion that is coming through this channel when you are grappling, lots of contact equals lots of data not all of it is useful for this reading.

    So in summary I guess what I'm trying to say is - yes, the abstract principles can apply, but they apply at an abstract level that does not seem to be very practical. I don't think that you could "discover" solid groundfighting techniques by trying to apply stand-up principles to the ground. I think a much better application of training time and energy would be spent with a qualified ground-fighting intructor. However once you develop an understanding of the ground basics, THEN looking at them through the lens of your kenpo ideas might generate some very interesting results.

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    Default Re: Kenpo on the ground

    you hit the nail on the head when you said abstract principles apply both standing and on the ground.
    my first teacher was very big on letting you find out things for yourself.....because it would stick in your brain a lot easier rather than just being told what to do, but he would kind of coach you along the way.
    that was the method that he used, rather than going with a strict technique like, if you're on top and he has you like this-do this.
    So i guess for me.....my training has always been rather abstract.

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    Cool Re: Kenpo on the ground

    Kenpo works great on the ground, but you need to seek out an instructor that has an in-depth knowledge of the system. Just a little over a month ago, we worked on several base techniques that already have built-in anti-grappling fighting applications at Larry Tatum's east coast camp.

    I also had the opportunity of fighting against a jiu-jitsu black belt 2 months ago and found that my kenpo worked great.

    A common question I here about American Kenpo is: "why aren't there any techniques that start from a prone position?" The short answer: because fights don't start there. Fights start from a stand-up position, always have, always will. Also, what happened to all your skills up to that point? If people insist that they want their techniques to start from the prone position, then it's time to quit EPAK, and pursue Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

    Don't get me wrong, there are situations where we might be taken to the ground. However, kenpo's principles work excellent on the ground. And yes, it is also good to get some experience training with grapplers. However, what makes American Kenpo, in my opinion, better than Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is that our art works the three dimensions, the third being vertical.


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

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    Default Re: Kenpo on the ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    Kenpo works great on the ground, but you need to seek out an instructor that has an in-depth knowledge of the system. Just a little over a month ago, we worked on several base techniques that already have built-in anti-grappling fighting applications at Larry Tatum's east coast camp.

    I also had the opportunity of fighting against a jiu-jitsu black belt 2 months ago and found that my kenpo worked great.

    A common question I here about American Kenpo is: "why aren't there any techniques that start from a prone position?" The short answer: because fights don't start there. Fights start from a stand-up position, always have, always will. Also, what happened to all your skills up to that point? If people insist that they want their techniques to start from the prone position, then it's time to quit EPAK, and pursue Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

    Don't get me wrong, there are situations where we might be taken to the ground. However, kenpo's principles work excellent on the ground. And yes, it is also good to get some experience training with grapplers. However, what makes American Kenpo, in my opinion, better than Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is that our art works the three dimensions, the third being vertical.


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com
    Do you know any kenpo instructors that teach ground fighting in MD or WV?
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    Thumbs up Re: Kenpo on the ground

    Lee Epperson. He is an 8th degree black belt in jiu-jitsu and is a 5th degree black belt in American Kenpo under Larry Tatum. I had the opportunity of training with him in Las Vegas in June. He is one of the best I have seen, and can show you how to mix your Kenpo and groundfighting so nicely. He's also one of the nicest guys you could ever meet.

    His email is:

    LTKKAMaryland@aol.com

    Hope that helps.

    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

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    Default Re: Kenpo on the ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcatbonz
    you hit the nail on the head when you said abstract principles apply both standing and on the ground.
    Yes that is what I meant, but I also meant that it would be quite difficult to try to discover effective ground techniques starting from the principles of kenpo.

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    Default Re: Kenpo on the ground

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    Lee Epperson. He is an 8th degree black belt in jiu-jitsu and is a 5th degree black belt in American Kenpo under Larry Tatum. I had the opportunity of training with him in Las Vegas in June. He is one of the best I have seen, and can show you how to mix your Kenpo and groundfighting so nicely. He's also one of the nicest guys you could ever meet.

    His email is:

    LTKKAMaryland@aol.com

    Hope that helps.

    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com
    Excellent. I will have to get in touch with him. He sounds familiar.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


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    "A horse stance is great for taking a dump" --Jet Li

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    Default Re: Kenpo on the ground

    The only ones in WV that I know of that teach EPAK and groundwork are Tess and I. If you are looking for Okinawan Kenpo, Rob Zingg does that and ground work.
    Just because you do something one way, does not mean that everyone else does it that way, or that it is even the correct way.

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