Dance of death,thundering hammers,and sleeper

[MARSHALLS KENPO]

Here are three techs I would like to discuss.

One depending on the manual.

In Dance of death the attackers left foot is foward with a right punch,in thundering hammers and sleeper it is a right step thru with a right punch.

The attackers punch is traveling in the direction of 6:00, the manual may say step to 10:30/11:00 as you execute a left inward block.

I dont agree with some of the things listed in the manual and I look forward to a cross examination as we go. This is how I learn.

My Respect

[Hunter]

My thoughts on this "family grouping"?

I like to drill DOD with a couple of boxing jabs (with a couple of parries) then a cross leading into the technique. You can also familiarize someone with a double leg, single leg, or an ankle pick. (I was a wrestler sue me) and as a counter to DOD lead into locking horns or explaining chokes and gullitines as defenses for the take downs. Sleeper also leads to a good lesson with arm bars or rear naked chokes if someone is inclined to explain the positions before and after the take-down. Thundering hammers can also take you down the road of belly to back or leg sweeps with the waist involved.

I am probably steering down the wrong path and I apoligize, but as to left or right foot forward....

Left or right leg forward these techniques could still be executed with a simple switch of step-through towards the take down or angling towards the follow up strike.

As to the "entry" towards the technique the 45 would be the best angle to "slip" the cross or avoid the step through winding up in your face.

[Rob Broad]

I did a lesson on these 3 techniques last Wednesday night. I showed how we can graft from one technique to another, and how easy it is to employ the equation formula in these techniques.

[MARSHALLS KENPO]

So the first question is:

Do we step back and block, or do we step to 10:30 ish?

Second Question: If we step to 10:30 ish why?

Third Question would be if you are steping to 10:30 ish do you use a parry instead of the block?

[DavidCC]

Sorry if this is too simplistic, please feel free to "go deep" as you see fit

It seems to me that the feasibility of stepping to 1030 with the left foot in the face of a right punch depends for the most part on how much distance (or, taking into account the path of the punch, how much time) there is between your head and the punch at the moment you start to move. This step could put your head right in the wrong place. So, do techniques that use this maneuver require an earlier read of the attack than other techniques?


Of course we all "know" how to "step outside" a punch and do an "inward block". But what's really going on when you break it down into great detail?


edit: I think we cross-posted, so let me add... why is it necessary to say "1030ish" and not "1030"? Is that a clue that something needs to be examined?
- thanks!

[MARSHALLS KENPO]

Sorry if this is too simplistic, please feel free to "go deep" as you see fit

It seems to me that the feasibility of stepping to 1030 with the left foot in the face of a right punch depends for the most part on how much distance (or, taking into account the path of the punch, how much time) there is between your head and the punch at the moment you start to move. This step could put your head right in the wrong place. So, do techniques that use this maneuver require an earlier read of the attack than other techniques?


Of course we all "know" how to "step outside" a punch and do an "inward block". But what's really going on when you break it down into great detail?


edit: I think we cross-posted, so let me add... why is it necessary to say "1030ish" and not "1030"? Is that a clue that something needs to be examined?
- thanks!

David,

one perceptual speed is a must to reconize the attack.
Couple of senerios for us.

One what caused us to step forward? Perhaps enviormental conditions.
If the manual says step to 10:30,or 11:00,or perhaps even 9:00. mmmm

But if the manual says step to 10:30 into a left netural bow, does the left inward block get cancelead out with your own width?

If the attackers left leg is forward during the punch of DOD, then just how close is he to be able to hit us with it?

If Im stepping to 10:30 where is my left inward block striking, and what type of inward block would it be?

If people say that their manual calls it an inward block and they use a parry,then they go against the cirriculum.

I dont know if the step to 10:30 is right or wrong, I do belive that in DOD the timming and direction needs to be looked at.

I look at DOD as a two strike attack: I step back for the block and then push drag forward for the underhand reverse handsword.

[Rob Broad]

So the first question is:

Do we step back and block, or do we step to 10:30 ish?

To meet it is to beat! we step towards 10:30 as we move to the outside and block the punch.

Second Question: If we step to 10:30 ish why?

We step to 10:30 ish to move up the circle and around the attack.

Third Question would be if you are steping to 10:30 ish do you use a parry instead of the block?

On Dance of Death and Sleeper we parry, and on Thundering Hammers we block. The reasons for this is our body alignment, is easier to block in Thundering Hammers because of the forward momentum and the forearm strike that requires a rigid body structure. The same is true for Sleeper and Dance Of Death if you were to inward block as you delivered the ridge hands you will notice a tenseness in the muscles in the chest that inhibits the flow of the technique.

[Celtic_Crippler]

So the first question is:

Do we step back and block, or do we step to 10:30 ish?

Second Question: If we step to 10:30 ish why?

Third Question would be if you are steping to 10:30 ish do you use a parry instead of the block?

Though similar, I learned 3 different entries to each of these tech's.

Dance of Death: Block and step to 10:30

Thundering Hammers: Parry and step to 10:30 (parry to use the momentum of the attacker, but we replaced the forearm strike with a ridge hand to the groin)

Sleeper: Step back with the right, execute a "ricochet" block (block riding into a punch)

One what caused us to step forward? Perhaps enviormental conditions.
If the manual says step to 10:30,or 11:00,or perhaps even 9:00. mmmm

Good question, I haven't really practiced any of these tech's in a while (currently studying IKCA material) but why would you step into a punch instead of away from it?

[MARSHALLS KENPO]

As I remember the techs came from leaning against a wall when the attack came.

[MARSHALLS KENPO]

On Dance of Death and Sleeper we parry, and on Thundering Hammers we block. The reasons for this is our body alignment, is easier to block in Thundering Hammers because of the forward momentum and the forearm strike that requires a rigid body structure. The same is true for Sleeper and Dance Of Death if you were to inward block as you delivered the ridge hands you will notice a tenseness in the muscles in the chest that inhibits the flow of the technique.

So if the attack is pretty much the same, and the step and the intial response is the same, we are still using a ridge hand/ just changing the surface area of our strike to different height zones are we not? I actually use a ridge hand on thundering hammers, I just use it on a horizontal plane.

If the enviromental concerns are not an issue why wouldnt we step back,stablize our block prior to moving off line for the suffix of the tech?

You guys are great,Im just splitting hairs with you.

[Rob Broad]

So if the attack is pretty much the same, and the step and the intial response is the same, we are still using a ridge hand/ just changing the surface area of our strike to different height zones are we not? I actually use a ridge hand on thundering hammers, I just use it on a horizontal plane.

If the enviromental concerns are not an issue why wouldnt we step back,stablize our block prior to moving off line for the suffix of the tech?

You guys are great,Im just splitting hairs with you.

Try stepping back in Thundering Hammers and then blasting forward with the forearm, there is no structural integrity in our strike and we are doing too much work. To Meet It Is To Beat It is the key to these 3 techniques. Beginners step back, intermediates and beyond step off line and then move forward and through or over their attackers.

[MARSHALLS KENPO]

Try stepping back in Thundering Hammers and then blasting forward with the forearm, there is no structural integrity in our strike and we are doing too much work. To Meet It Is To Beat It is the key to these 3 techniques. Beginners step back, intermediates and beyond step off line and then move forward and through or over their attackers.

I agree with that,but who are we teaching DOD to?

Moving on to the block:

Is it a thrusting or hammering method of delivery, and where is it being placed on the attackers arm? I noticed that the attacker has pretty good depth with his attack. So is the block on the outside of the bicep,or on the outside of the shoulder?

[Rob Broad]

I agree with that,but who are we teaching DOD to?

Moving on to the block:

Is it a thrusting or hammering method of delivery, and where is it being placed on the attackers arm? I noticed that the attacker has pretty good depth with his attack. So is the block on the outside of the bicep,or on the outside of the shoulder?

While Dance of Death is a beginner technique it is the first technique that really starts us off on the path of To Meet It Is To Beat It, is also the beginning of the idea of bowling right through and over an opponent.

In the technique of Thundering Hammers you hammer into the attackers arm at the bicep, in Dance of Death and Sleep you parry which takes less effort for the defender and allows the attacker to over commit on the attack which makes our counter measures more effective.

There are some great lessons in these techniques and some great great lesson when interplaying with all 3. We should dissect each technique first and then discuss the relationships of each technique.

[DavidCC]

does the left inward block get cancelead out with your own width?

Brad, I look forward to seeing what you mean in person.

-David

[John M. La Tourrette]

Though similar, I learned 3 different entries to each of these tech's.

Dance of Death: Block and step to 10:30

Thundering Hammers: Parry and step to 10:30 (parry to use the momentum of the attacker, but we replaced the forearm strike with a ridge hand to the groin)

Sleeper: Step back with the right, execute a "ricochet" block (block riding into a punch)

Nice.

And all of the above 3 are easily exchangable.

But stepping to 10:30 BEFORE they reach the Point of No Return with their punch will just get you HIT.

Why is that so?

Because they can change the direction their strike is going and follow you!

That's the reason for understanding and using the PONR Rule and learning how to see/feel it.

Then it's easy to block step, parry step, or step away and block/parry.

[Brother John]

So the first question is:

Do we step back and block, or do we step to 10:30 ish?

Second Question: If we step to 10:30 ish why?

Third Question would be if you are steping to 10:30 ish do you use a parry instead of the block?

I wouldn't 'step back' and block.
I think that the answer is the same on each of these..., or at least very related.
We step to 10:30 / 11:00 and parry.

The reason for each is so that we can make USE of their forward momentum for borrowed force.

In sleeper, so you can really shock them with the reverse swordhand to their neck. If you do a block, it's "Doable", but you're going to go right against their Adam's apple as you'll pivot their body counterclockwise some.

...hope I'm writing intelligibly...
just woke up! ....groggy......neeeed cofffffeeeeee..........


Your Brother
Juan Baldez

[Brother John]

If you stepped back and blocked....
I'd rather do "attacking Mace" or some such anyway.

Your Brother....
that one guy,,, who was gonna go chuck some coffeeeee

[MARSHALLS KENPO]

Nice.

And all of the above 3 are easily exchangable.

But stepping to 10:30 BEFORE they reach the Point of No Return with their punch will just get you HIT.

Why is that so?

Because they can change the direction their strike is going and follow you!

That's the reason for understanding and using the PONR Rule and learning how to see/feel it.

Then it's easy to block step, parry step, or step away and block/parry.

Good stuff sir,

[MARSHALLS KENPO]

I wouldn't 'step back' and block.
I think that the answer is the same on each of these..., or at least very related.
We step to 10:30 / 11:00 and parry.

The reason for each is so that we can make USE of their forward momentum for borrowed force.

In sleeper, so you can really shock them with the reverse swordhand to their neck. If you do a block, it's "Doable", but you're going to go right against their Adam's apple as you'll pivot their body counterclockwise some.

...hope I'm writing intelligibly...
just woke up! ....groggy......neeeed cofffffeeeeee..........


Your Brother
Juan Baldez

Would there forward momentum supply the borrowed force that we are looking for?

[MARSHALLS KENPO]

If you stepped back and blocked....
I'd rather do "attacking Mace" or some such anyway.

Your Brother....
that one guy,,, who was gonna go chuck some coffeeeee

Good thought Brother, why wouldnt the princple of attacking mace be applied to these techs?