Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: Contact manipulation vs Control manipulation

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Ft. Worth Texas
    Posts
    3,900
    Thanks
    2,878
    Thanked 1,741 Times in 1,088 Posts

    Default Contact manipulation vs Control manipulation

    What is the difference, and is there a conflict in Vol's of Mr. Parkers Insights?
    Brad Marshall SP
    KKFI

    trgodbm@yahoo.com

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    6,026
    Thanks
    1,199
    Thanked 1,520 Times in 909 Posts

    Default Re: Contact manipulation vs Control manipulation

    In brief, per the Encyclopedia of Kenpo:

    CONTACT MANIPULATION: The fourth stage of range. It entails the orchestration of control, once contact is made, to contour, leverage, takedown, restrain, twist, sprain, lock, dislocate, choke, etc. to increase the effectiveness of your action.

    CONTROL MANIPULATION: To sustain control of your opponent's actions while steering or maneuvering your opponent to more suitable and stategic positions. Setting up these positions not only helps to prevent further retaliation, b ut allows you clear access to your opponent's targets as well.

    One can utilize CONTROL MANIPULATION without making contact with one's opponent. For example, any/all males know that you don't have to make contact with the groin to initiate a physical response. One can feign a strike towards the groing to cause an opponent to drop their head as they attempt to retreat from the percieved strike.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to Celtic_Crippler For This Useful Post:

    Brother John (09-20-2007)

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Posts
    2,796
    Thanks
    578
    Thanked 1,842 Times in 1,069 Posts

    Default Re: Contact manipulation vs Control manipulation

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    What is the difference, and is there a conflict in Vol's of Mr. Parkers Insights?
    I predict a very long and contentious thread, and I expect to learn a lot from it.

    Thanks!
    -D
    -David C
    http://www.kungfubooksonline.com

    "...while you guys are arguing, I'm on the grind."
    - an anonymous brick puncher

    "If you don't ask the right questions, I can't give you the answers, and if you don't know the right question to ask, you're not ready for the answers"
    -Ed Parker Sr.

    "For many a 'system' is just a bunch of techniques. It should be much, much more than that..."
    - Doc Chapel

  5. #4
    RDCParker is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Green Belt
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Eastvale (Corona), CA; training out of Los Angeles
    Posts
    699
    Thanks
    187
    Thanked 260 Times in 191 Posts

    Default Re: Contact manipulation vs Control manipulation

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    CONTACT MANIPULATION: The fourth stage of range. It entails the orchestration of control, once contact is made, to contour, leverage, takedown, restrain, twist, sprain, lock, dislocate, choke, etc. to increase the effectiveness of your action.

    CONTROL MANIPULATION: To sustain control of your opponent's actions while steering or maneuvering your opponent to more suitable and stategic positions. Setting up these positions not only helps to prevent further retaliation, b ut allows you clear access to your opponent's targets as well.
    Could it be said that Contact Manipulation is just a part of the bigger picture, which would be Control Manipulation?
    "Your kung fu's no good..."
    *Warrior, Scholar*

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Ft. Worth Texas
    Posts
    3,900
    Thanks
    2,878
    Thanked 1,741 Times in 1,088 Posts

    Default Re: Contact manipulation vs Control manipulation

    Quote Originally Posted by domino3700 View Post
    Could it be said that Contact Manipulation is just a part of the bigger picture, which would be Control Manipulation?
    Perhaps the depth of contact penetration to a specific target would provide a means of control manipulation.
    Brad Marshall SP
    KKFI

    trgodbm@yahoo.com

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Ft. Worth Texas
    Posts
    3,900
    Thanks
    2,878
    Thanked 1,741 Times in 1,088 Posts

    Default Re: Contact manipulation vs Control manipulation

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post


    One can utilize CONTROL MANIPULATION without making contact with one's opponent. For example, any/all males know that you don't have to make contact with the groin to initiate a physical response. One can feign a strike towards the groing to cause an opponent to drop their head as they attempt to retreat from the percieved strike.
    I like this: Now we have steped away from the physical realm and went into the sensory realm of mental manipulation.
    Brad Marshall SP
    KKFI

    trgodbm@yahoo.com

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    6,026
    Thanks
    1,199
    Thanked 1,520 Times in 909 Posts

    Default Re: Contact manipulation vs Control manipulation

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    I like this: Now we have steped away from the physical realm and went into the sensory realm of mental manipulation.
    I don't really believe in the whole "hypnosis" deal, but I do believe you can get inside your opponents head and "control" them through proven methods without actual physical contact.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Kennewick, WA
    Posts
    1,010
    Thanks
    143
    Thanked 711 Times in 384 Posts

    Default Re: Contact manipulation vs Control manipulation

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    I don't really believe in the whole "hypnosis" deal, but I do believe you can get inside your opponents head and "control" them through proven methods without actual physical contact.
    Mr. Baxter gives some very interesting examples in a thread over at the SJK board. I can't say yeah or nay on this, I haven't trained or tried any of it, but from the little time I spent with him, I learned some pretty interesting subtle stuff. Anyway, link:
    http://www.network54.com/Forum/32658...s+of+the+Trade

    Lamont
    Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Kenpo Karate
    www.blackbirdmartialarts.com

    “He, who will not reason, is a bigot; he, who cannot, is a fool; and he, who dares not, is a slave.”
    ~William Drummond

    "This person is as dangerous as an IED."

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to Blindside For This Useful Post:

    Celtic_Crippler (09-21-2007)

  11. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Dana Point, CA
    Posts
    2,343
    Thanks
    2,296
    Thanked 4,374 Times in 1,427 Posts

    Default Re: Contact manipulation vs Control manipulation

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    Perhaps the depth of contact penetration to a specific target would provide a means of control manipulation.
    That might then count as strike manipulation, or a component thereof. My favorite video quote from Doc, "...because I PUT IT THERE!"
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dr. Dave in da house For This Useful Post:

    Brother John (09-20-2007),MARSHALLS KENPO (09-20-2007)

  13. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Dana Point, CA
    Posts
    2,343
    Thanks
    2,296
    Thanked 4,374 Times in 1,427 Posts

    Default Re: Contact manipulation vs Control manipulation

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    I don't really believe in the whole "hypnosis" deal, but I do believe you can get inside your opponents head and "control" them through proven methods without actual physical contact.
    Clap your hands very abruptly right in front of a guys face, just before you pump a standing front kick to the pelvis or groin. Is he watching your foot, or your hands?

    Stupid old sparring trick when throwing a shuffle-up lead leg roundhouse was to snap with your lead hand fingers as your feet came together, so he wouldn't read the telegraph cuz the distraction. Then everyone does it, and it gets old & stops working. But if you wait for a new batch of young 'uns to come into the art, it's like fresh meat. You get to do it all over again. But I'm not sure this counts as control manipulation, as it doesn't really cancel an attackers ability to counter.

    D.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

  14. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dr. Dave in da house For This Useful Post:

    Brother John (09-20-2007),MARSHALLS KENPO (09-20-2007)

  15. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Ft. Worth Texas
    Posts
    3,900
    Thanks
    2,878
    Thanked 1,741 Times in 1,088 Posts

    Default Re: Contact manipulation vs Control manipulation

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    Clap your hands very abruptly right in front of a guys face, just before you pump a standing front kick to the pelvis or groin. Is he watching your foot, or your hands?

    Stupid old sparring trick when throwing a shuffle-up lead leg roundhouse was to snap with your lead hand fingers as your feet came together, so he wouldn't read the telegraph cuz the distraction. Then everyone does it, and it gets old & stops working. But if you wait for a new batch of young 'uns to come into the art, it's like fresh meat. You get to do it all over again. But I'm not sure this counts as control manipulation, as it doesn't really cancel an attackers ability to counter.

    D.
    You nailed it sir
    Brad Marshall SP
    KKFI

    trgodbm@yahoo.com

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to MARSHALLS KENPO For This Useful Post:

    Dr. Dave in da house (09-20-2007)

  17. #12
    RDCParker is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Green Belt
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Eastvale (Corona), CA; training out of Los Angeles
    Posts
    699
    Thanks
    187
    Thanked 260 Times in 191 Posts

    Default Re: Contact manipulation vs Control manipulation

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    My favorite video quote from Doc, "...because I PUT IT THERE!"
    That's my favorite quote from him too.
    "Your kung fu's no good..."
    *Warrior, Scholar*

  18. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Wichita, Kansas, United States
    Posts
    2,467
    Thanks
    2,019
    Thanked 1,277 Times in 709 Posts

    Default Re: Contact manipulation vs Control manipulation

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    In brief, per the Encyclopedia of Kenpo:

    CONTACT MANIPULATION: The fourth stage of range. It entails the orchestration of control, once contact is made, to contour, leverage, takedown, restrain, twist, sprain, lock, dislocate, choke, etc. to increase the effectiveness of your action.

    CONTROL MANIPULATION: To sustain control of your opponent's actions while steering or maneuvering your opponent to more suitable and stategic positions. Setting up these positions not only helps to prevent further retaliation, b ut allows you clear access to your opponent's targets as well.
    I think that a lot of the concepts and principles in Kenpo OVERLAP and intermix/intermingle with one another to a Great extent.
    in a way, if you don't understand something through ONE means
    ...there's another coming round the bend...and it may do the trick better for you.
    It's all for increasing your understanding
    and better understanding SHOULD lead to better execution.


    Your Brother
    John
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    ((if you use "FaceBook", look me up there by name))
    "Striving for success without hard work is like trying to harvest where you haven't planted"
    ~ David Bly

  19. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Wichita, Kansas, United States
    Posts
    2,467
    Thanks
    2,019
    Thanked 1,277 Times in 709 Posts

    Default I KNEW IT !!!! I Knew it.

    I was sitting here tonight thinking "I Know I've read this discussion before, I just know it."
    and I have.

    Over on our sister site, Martial Talk, by Doc Chapel WAY back
    04-14-2004, 06:00 PM
    !!!
    HERE's a LINK to it....

    It's kinda like Retro-active plagerism Brad!!
    Doc stole your Great question and posted it 3 years, 5 months and 6 days before you!
    ((he's sneaky like that! sneeeaky I tell yas....))

    Your Brother
    John
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    ((if you use "FaceBook", look me up there by name))
    "Striving for success without hard work is like trying to harvest where you haven't planted"
    ~ David Bly

  20. The Following User Says Thank You to Brother John For This Useful Post:

    sumdumguy (05-17-2011)

  21. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    6,026
    Thanks
    1,199
    Thanked 1,520 Times in 909 Posts

    Default Re: Contact manipulation vs Control manipulation

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John View Post
    I think that a lot of the concepts and principles in Kenpo OVERLAP and intermix/intermingle with one another to a Great extent.
    in a way, if you don't understand something through ONE means
    ...there's another coming round the bend...and it may do the trick better for you.
    It's all for increasing your understanding
    and better understanding SHOULD lead to better execution.


    Your Brother
    John
    Good point.

    I think the trouble starts when we view things as absolutes.

    IHMO, in order to gain further understanding one can not take the approach that all things in Kenpo are written in stone. They are ideas based on logic and concepts of science, but in the end they are still ideas.

    Ideas are not tangible and are subject to each individuals unique perception of them as to how they are interpreted and/or applied.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

Remove Ads

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Dim Mak or the "death touch"
    By nelson in forum General Martial Arts
    Replies: 80
    Last Post: 04-10-2007, 10:39 PM
  2. Terminology
    By Rob Broad in forum Terminology
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-16-2007, 03:46 PM
  3. MLKKA: Kenpo Control
    By cameypsaromatis in forum Product Reviews
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 03-09-2006, 08:49 AM
  4. Huk Planas’ 2006 Seminar Schedule
    By Bob Hubbard in forum Events
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-01-2006, 10:23 AM
  5. Long Form 5
    By Rob Broad in forum Ed Parker Kenpo
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-23-2006, 03:14 PM