View Poll Results: Are "forms" useless and dead aspects of training?

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41. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, completely. It's a waste of time and dead movement so chuck 'em all out.

    0 0%
  • Almost totally useless and dead. Forms have redeeming qualities, but are not practical.

    1 2.44%
  • Partially useless and dead. Some parts need to be trimmed, others can be revived.

    5 12.20%
  • Useful and alive! They are quintessential parts to learning principles.

    35 85.37%
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Thread: Are "Forms" Useless and Dead

  1. #1
    Mekugi is offline
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    Default Are "Forms" Useless and Dead

    Well? Are they?

    Looking for perspectives....fire away. Devil's advocates welcomed.
    Last edited by Mekugi; 09-10-2007 at 11:33 AM. Reason: cleaner
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    Default Re: Are "Forms" Useless and Dead

    I LOVE forms!

    Forms help with flow, teach principles and help cement basics and, in the case of the higher forms, work many techniques.

    I think they're great and are often underworked by many practitioners.

    --Amy
    The New Kenpo Continuum Book is now accepting submissions for volume 2. Our fabulous, ever-changing website is Sacramento Kenpo Karate.
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  4. #3
    JamesB is offline
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    Default Re: Are "Forms" Useless and Dead

    Forms taught and executed correctly (with focus, intent and proper mechanics of the body) are an incredibly useful way to develop as a martial artist.

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    Default Re: Are "Forms" Useless and Dead

    Useless: No.

    Dead: Not quite; but, on the endangered list I think.

    When we are doing drills and the students are having trouble. I tell them it is this move from their kata. Then they can do it much better. Nothing physical changed; but, hopefully they are learning to make connections.

    Kata is there for them to explore during solo practice.
    More Shugyo!

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    Default Re: Are "Forms" Useless and Dead

    The study of and training in forms is Essential to gaining and ingraining the skills of Kenpo. The things they work on, proper angles, adjusting to other directions while in the flow of action and not missing a beat as well as making your transitions fluid and actions continuous.

    I think that a person who goes without them, would stand out like a sore thumb.

    I'd Love to hear from someone that believes they are 'useless' and hear their reasons.

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    Default Re: Are "Forms" Useless and Dead

    Dead?

    That depends on HOW you perform them and IF your instructor taught them to you well and helped impart a good mind set about them.
    Perspective counts for a lot.

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  12. #7
    Kosho is offline
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    Default Re: Are "Forms" Useless and Dead

    Forms / Kata

    at a beg, level help you move and Block and strike. makes the body and its part work together.

    Then as the student grows so does the kata. Take Pinon 1
    Block move and punch in a ( I ) form of motion.

    But it also teaches, escaping arts, throwing arts, Locking arts, sweeps, Etc. unless your mind is closed and you live in a BOX..

    all of your self defense TEQ: are in your katas. you just need to open your mind.
    Kosho

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  14. #8
    Mekugi is offline
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    Talking Re: Are "Forms" Useless and Dead

    I believe I have a feeling for whatcha'all are saying.

    Allow me to dig a little deeper and be a complete jerk/Devil's advocate (hey, it comes easy for me).

    That is to say, I am gleaning that:

    Forms by themselves are useless. Yet when combined with other things (like drills, or sparring) they make sense. So, let's say for the sake of argument (the polite 'kine) they're useless by themselves (?). Therefore, really we cannot learn anything from forms unless there is a "crutch" to carry them along.

    Is that about right??

    Anyway...1am here...bed-time. I'll check back on the marrow when I get home.
    Last edited by Mekugi; 09-10-2007 at 12:27 PM. Reason: I before E except after c....
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    Default Re: Are "Forms" Useless and Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Mekugi View Post

    Forms by themselves are useless. Yet when combined with other things (like drills, or sparring) they make sense. So, let's say for the sake of argument (the polite 'kine) they're useless by themselves (?). Therefore, really we cannot learn anything from forms unless there is a "crutch" to carry them along.
    You're funny. Useless....lol.

    All by themselves, they teach moving basics (hitting, blocking and moving allllll at the same time.) Each of the katas has a theme, so you're learning whatever that theme is. You learn to work the different angles, to be smooth in your movements, to maintain focus for more than one or two movements, etc.

    --Amy
    The New Kenpo Continuum Book is now accepting submissions for volume 2. Our fabulous, ever-changing website is Sacramento Kenpo Karate.
    I'm a member of the Universal Life Church and the ULC Seminary. I'm also a Sacramento Wedding Minister and Disc Jockey
    New Cool (free) kenpo tool bar: http://KenpoKarate.OurToolbar.com/


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    Default Re: Are "Forms" Useless and Dead

    All forms are movement and can teach you about movement. If the creator of the form had a deep understanding of movement then the form they created will have deepth and offer insights for a lifetime of study. If the creator of the form had only shallow understanding of movement then the form will have contraditions and conflicts of improper movements. But in discovering movements that are improper there is also value because we also learn by discovering what not to do.

    _Don Flatt

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    Default Re: Are "Forms" Useless and Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Mekugi View Post
    I believe I have a feeling for whatcha'all are saying.
    Allow me to dig a little deeper and be a complete jerk/Devil's advocate (hey, it comes easy for me).
    That is to say, I am gleaning that:

    Forms by themselves are useless. Yet when combined with other things (like drills, or sparring) they make sense. So, let's say for the sake of argument (the polite 'kine) they're useless by themselves (?). Therefore, really we cannot learn anything from forms unless there is a "crutch" to carry them along.

    Is that about right??
    Anyway...1am here...bed-time. I'll check back on the marrow when I get home.
    I had a friend in college that taught two Kung-fu systems, and the forms were BEAUTIFUL. (he studied in China from age 4-17 before coming to the USA to study at the college we met at). He trained me in two of their most basic forms. I enjoyed the gracefulness of them, their poise and sense of balance that they developed. Currently I couldn't recall them for the life of me, but still....they were "neat". While he was training me in them I'd ask him about the motions, what they "Meant" and what they did. Most often he'd have a reply along the lines of "I think it means *****" Or "My sifu say it does ******".....but about 30-40% of the time he'd confess to not knowing. That made no sense to me. He'd been training in these forms for over a decade and yet he didn't know the intent/use behind the movements he'd done THOUSANDS of times. Yet his system was probably 80-90% forms work!!!

    Also: In my younger years I studied at a Karate Dojo where the instructor held a high rank in GoJu Ryu Karate and a moderately high rank in Shotokan, having studied under VERY legit Sensei. Often in the Kata practice he'd tell us the bunkai (interpreted use) of the movements, and they were often very obvious, some however were not. ....and like my Kung-Fu buddy, he either guessed (which was sometimes a stretch) or give no answer at all. Both of these systems of Karate-Do emphasize that Kata practice is the quintessential of mastering their methods! (a point I don't dispute)

    When I came to Kenpo, I was by no means a martial arts newbie! But it's forms blew me away! I loved it! (still do) NOT only are the forms Very important, but each and every movement has a very DIRECT interpretation and usefulness!!! It was like striking gold.

    But: unlike the other systems I mentioned, in Kenpo....Forms are not the end all be all of the system! They are essential ingredients to the cultivation of a well rounded Kenpoist NO DOUBT, but they are just one more ingredient amongst others.
    Imagine asking if Flour, was useless...because by itself, it's not so useful. YET countries of people have had famines for want of flour! You can't make a very nutritious bread from JUST flour. But it's one of the most used ingredients around the globe.

    Our forms are important for our development! Alone? Yeah, I think they'd not be NEARLY as potent a training tool if truncated from the rest of the system, because they are designed to incorporate other things that you find in other elements of the system and help you experience them w/in a different context. That different 'experience' broadens your ability to apply your Kenpo.

    Good subject, and there's NOTHING wrong with taking the point of the 'devil's advocate' !!! Sometimes its the best way to get a GOOD conversation going.

    Your Brother
    John
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    Default Re: Are "Forms" Useless and Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John View Post
    I had a friend in college that taught two Kung-fu systems, and the forms were BEAUTIFUL. (he studied in China from age 4-17 before coming to the USA to study at the college we met at).

    While he was training me in them I'd ask him about the motions, what they "Meant" and what they did. Most often he'd have a reply along the lines of "I think it means *****" Or "My sifu say it does ******".....but about 30-40% of the time he'd confess to not knowing. That made no sense to me. He'd been training in these forms for over a decade and yet he didn't know the intent/use behind the movements he'd done THOUSANDS of times. Yet his system was probably 80-90% forms work!!!
    It's possible he trained in Modern Wushu, which is a performance art based on traditional Chinese martial arts and is heavily promoted by the Chinese government. Even tho it is based on traditional fighting arts, the usefulness of the movement is sacrificed for the beauty and performance and competition quality. Most practitioners of Modern Wushu have little or no understanding of how to use the material in a fight, and in fact most of the actual usefulness has been steadily eliminated from the art. As the years go by, even less useful material remains in Modern Wushu.

    Also: In my younger years I studied at a Karate Dojo where the instructor held a high rank in GoJu Ryu Karate and a moderately high rank in Shotokan, having studied under VERY legit Sensei. Often in the Kata practice he'd tell us the bunkai (interpreted use) of the movements, and they were often very obvious, some however were not. ....and like my Kung-Fu buddy, he either guessed (which was sometimes a stretch) or give no answer at all. Both of these systems of Karate-Do emphasize that Kata practice is the quintessential of mastering their methods! (a point I don't dispute)

    When I came to Kenpo, I was by no means a martial arts newbie! But it's forms blew me away! I loved it! (still do) NOT only are the forms Very important, but each and every movement has a very DIRECT interpretation and usefulness!!! It was like striking gold.
    I think this illustrates a basic difference between the expectations in learning martial arts as seen in traditional Asian arts and teachers, vs. American teachers and Americanized arts.

    In Traditional Asian arts, forms are the central focus, but the student is expected to dissect the form and figure out its usefulness. Some hints may be given by the teacher, but the student is expected to do the work. In this way, those who are truly dedicated will shine, while those who are not, will have pretty forms that they don't understand.

    My sifu described training under his uncle, a master of Tibetan White Crane kung fu. His uncle would show him one or two moves, then tell him "practice". He would then go into the back room and read the paper, while my sifu would practice. Then, maybe an hour later, his uncle would reappear and take a look at his progress. He would make some adjustments and corrections, then tell him "practice more". And that was it, and I've seen similar descriptions and heard similar stories from other people. This is a very "Chinese" way of doing things. Responsibility for learning and developing skill is very much on the shoulders of the student.

    In America, we expect everything to be explained in detail, with nothing held back. We want a Western style lecture, with all points covered thoroughly. We believe we are being cheated if we don't get this. We would prefer to be told up front what something is or how it works, rather than figure it out for ourselves.

    I think kenpo forms reflect this different, Western mindset. The usefulness of the techs within the form are very obvious, and they are taught very openly that way.

    I'm not trying to say that I think one way or the other is the best. I think they both have strong points and weak points, and it largely depends on how well the individual student responds to each method.

    I believe the Asian method instills a greater sense of curiosity and willingness to dig into the material and look at it from many different angles, and figure out many uses for the same technique. It allows for getting more mileage from less matarial. But it can be very frustrating, especially for a beginner, and perhaps fewer people are successful at digging thru the material and really mastering it.

    I believe the American way is less frustrating for the beginner, and develops useful skills more quickly and more obviously. However, I also suspect that there is a risk of becoming too attached to the curruculum as it is written, and failing to get creative with the material. I am sure the reality of that risk also depends greatly in the individual.

    At any rate, I believe forms are very important in training, and to echo what others have said, they are one tool among many that contribute to your skill. All by themselves they have great value, but they have greater value when the other tools stand with them.

    This of course depends upon the assumption that the forms were well taught and well understood.
    Michael


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    Default Re: Are "Forms" Useless and Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    It's possible he trained in Modern Wushu, which is a performance art based on traditional Chinese martial arts and is heavily promoted by the Chinese government.
    No sir.
    Hung-Gar Chuan and Choi Li Fut Gung-fu.
    Older systems, not Wu-Shu.

    Wu-Shu is pretty, but I no longer consider it a martial art. It's a LOT more like XMA or gymnastics with sticks & blades & chains.

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    Default Re: Are "Forms" Useless and Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John View Post
    No sir.
    Hung-Gar Chuan and Choi Li Fut Gung-fu.
    Older systems, not Wu-Shu.

    Wu-Shu is pretty, but I no longer consider it a martial art. It's a LOT more like XMA or gymnastics with sticks & blades & chains.

    Your Brother
    John
    okey doke. I would have expected he would have a better understanding of the useage, but it sounds like he wasn't taught it, and apparently didn't figure it out himself.
    Michael


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    Default Re: Are "Forms" Useless and Dead

    Useless?....No

    Kata has many levels. Coming from a background different than that of Kenpo and just beginning my Kenpo path….kata is what holds the echoes of my past and many pasts before me.

    Much in the same way I think of Kata, I am also a guitar player. Attempting to play some Jimi Hendricks, I play that CD again and again and again. Sometimes slowing it down to make sure I get the sound, bend, hammer on, pulloff, or harmonic just right. With the right timing. I look at my fingers and see the best path to move to the next note/chord. I may pull out the DVD and watch Hendricks and look at what he is doing…..It is the only way in which I can collaborate with the master.. Kata is much this same way at one level. It is like the master is there…you are collaborating with those that have come before and delving into the lessons and movements that served them so well.

    Kata at another level is a great workout. It is a great way to practice techniques. It is a trash can to throw away bad movements. It is a way to move with nature. It is the Tapestry that each time you look at it…there is something new to see and discover. It is the action of meditation.

    Anyway just my two cents on the subject of Kata/forms



    humbly
    chris
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    Default Re: Are "Forms" Useless and Dead

    I suppose they are useless if nothing is put into their performance, and they're not developing or polishing a host of basics, flow, footwork, balance, coordination, power, focus, visualization, or being used to critique and make corrections in movement. Those things are kind of important to the martial arts, but some people treat forms this way.

    You probably won't find many devil's advocates, just people who practice kenpo but don't like forms.

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    Default Re: Are "Forms" Useless and Dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Mekugi View Post
    I believe I have a feeling for whatcha'all are saying.

    Allow me to dig a little deeper and be a complete jerk/Devil's advocate (hey, it comes easy for me).

    That is to say, I am gleaning that:

    Forms by themselves are useless. Yet when combined with other things (like drills, or sparring) they make sense. So, let's say for the sake of argument (the polite 'kine) they're useless by themselves (?). Therefore, really we cannot learn anything from forms unless there is a "crutch" to carry them along.

    Is that about right??

    Anyway...1am here...bed-time. I'll check back on the marrow when I get home.
    I'd say NEVER useless, but also not a complete martial art experience in themselves, which is a curious hangup for a lot of ignorant people who seem to think that anyone who does forms believes forms will give them everything the martial arts has to offer. Forms are a tool, though a multifaceted gem of a tool.

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    Default Re: Are "Forms" Useless and Dead

    i dont think they're dead, or useless.. to me i think they're a little... redundant? i mean (at least in kenpo ,to my knowledge), in most cases they are basics and techniques strung together. if you're doing the techniques correctly, and know how to properly execute basics.. the forms are really just a vessel to string them together.

    so basically ideas of what you could do, in multiple directions, attackers, etc..

    I think if you know the techniques, and understand the concept of working multiple directions and attackers, i dont understand the point of having X number of forms. if you dont know what you're doing in the form, then find someone who can tell you what you should/could be doing.. or dont do it at all.

    I do know that at least kenpo forms, are a perfect excuse to work your techniques on both sides.. at least at a certain level you should be doing it anyway. i train so i can defend myself against people, not air.. id rather do a self defense routine than a form personally.. but that doesn't stop me from wanting to learn forms.. i cant wait till the day i can do Form 6.. hell getting 2 down pat is enough for now.
    Brian Sheets
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    Default Re: Are "Forms" Useless and Dead

    Kenpo Forms do not represent a fight; they teach the rules and principles of motion, that everything has an opposite and reverse, and gives an example.

    I do not know how that could every be considered "dead", "useless", or even "un-usefull". Nope. Very much alive. Very much important. Perhaps, very much misunderstood, perhaps.

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    Default Re: Are "Forms" Useless and Dead

    Lot of great thoughts on this topic, to what they may or may not teach, alive or dead, perspectives of training etc. But why were they placed in the system to begain with?

    The forms show partial application of principle,and hide the true applications within the system. Perhaps they are ment to mantain the focus of those who are on the outside, and provide fuel to a flame that is pretty to look at but, will burn to the touch.
    Brad Marshall SP
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