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Thread: Question about whena student is ready for promotion.

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    Default Question about whena student is ready for promotion.

    This is basically for the instructors out there, but is open for everyone's thoughts. When is a person ready to be promoted to the next rank?

    My feeling and what I believe Ed Parker intended (I'm not sure of this though) is that a person is ready for the next belt when they know the required material well enough to teach it to those who are under them in rank.

    Does anyone agree or disagree with this thought and why or why not?

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    Default Re: Question about whena student is ready for promotion.

    I disagree to a certian point and here is why.

    Just because someone is a black belt as an example doesnt mean they understand it well enough to teach it. I know yellow belts that know more about a certian area then I may for example, so I pick there brain.

    The physical abilities of a student must meet the cirrculum of that system to be eligable to test and promote. However there is more to it than that. Being eligible to test and being promoted or not the same issue.

    Just my thoughts

    Respectfully
    Brad Marshall SP
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    Smile Re: Question about whena student is ready for promotion.

    Quote Originally Posted by jjpregler View Post
    This is basically for the instructors out there, but is open for everyone's thoughts. When is a person ready to be promoted to the next rank?

    My feeling and what I believe Ed Parker intended (I'm not sure of this though) is that a person is ready for the next belt when they know the required material well enough to teach it to those who are under them in rank.

    Does anyone agree or disagree with this thought and why or why not?
    I have spent some "phone seminar" time with Mr. Marshall on this one and here are some of my thoughts....

    a) It is a tailored art..not everyone has the desire to teach.
    b) What does the individual want out of the art?
    c) What are they doing with THEIR natural talent or limitations? Is it 100% or lower?
    d) Having the checklist is nice...but if their movement isn't the best they could be putting forth then maybe some marination would be nice.
    e) Don't compare them to others...compare them to themselves and their improvement.

    Over all kenpo is what the person wants out of it and what they are doing to get there, not others, not you. I think as instructors we at times should simply be tour guides to help someone else get down their own path productively.
    www.hunterskarate.com

    "I believe that to have a friend, a man must be one."

    - From the Lone Ranger's Creed




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    Default Re: Question about whena student is ready for promotion.

    Quote Originally Posted by jjpregler View Post
    ... a person is ready for the next belt when they know the required material well enough to teach it to those who are under them in rank.
    I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement.

    A student may learn the basics that compomise a technique, and be able to execute them in the correct manner, but, this does not equate with being able to teach the technique.

    American Kenpo is a self-defense system of rules and principles. Often times, the understanding of the rule or principle demonstrated and applied in a technique does not become evident until one learns a series of related techniques. Being able to execute without having the knowledge related to that execution should not qualify one for teaching or promotion.

    Personally, I have been practicing American Kenpo for a bit more than six years. At times, I find myself doing too much teaching; especially with the brown belts I work with at the studio. In this instance, I often find myself being only one or two steps infront of the student. I do not think this is the ideal.

    But, where I began to find myself as being competent to teach, is with the completion of my black belt thesis. I spent a good deal of time thinking and writing about Kenpo; as opposed to actually doing Kenpo. And while Kenpo exists primarily in the physical world, when I moved to pen and paper, I feel that some of the rules and principles and applications became more clear and more understood.


    As a further example - In our school, the first technique on the Black Belt chart (learned as a 1st degree brown student), is Falling Falcon. I especially like this because the attack is almost the same attack as Delayed Sword. In our school, the first technique you learn, and the first technique you learn to achieve your black belt, share a Right Direct Lapel grab. This connects the black belt student back to the first day of training. A Yellow Belt attempting to teach a new student would be unaware of that connection. (Now maybe the connection is only in my perception - but I think a broader scope of knowlege should exist before teaching).


    Promotions in American Kenpo are divided into levels in which the accumulation of application is measured. When the student can competently remember the sequence of basics that comprise techniques; the names of those techniques; the application of those techniques, and the forms and sets used to catalog the system, they are ready to be measured.

    Thanks for allowing me to share.

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    Default Re: Question about whena student is ready for promotion.

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement.

    A student may learn the basics that compomise a technique, and be able to execute them in the correct manner, but, this does not equate with being able to teach the technique.

    American Kenpo is a self-defense system of rules and principles. Often times, the understanding of the rule or principle demonstrated and applied in a technique does not become evident until one learns a series of related techniques. Being able to execute without having the knowledge related to that execution should not qualify one for teaching or promotion.

    Personally, I have been practicing American Kenpo for a bit more than six years. At times, I find myself doing too much teaching; especially with the brown belts I work with at the studio. In this instance, I often find myself being only one or two steps infront of the student. I do not think this is the ideal.

    But, where I began to find myself as being competent to teach, is with the completion of my black belt thesis. I spent a good deal of time thinking and writing about Kenpo; as opposed to actually doing Kenpo. And while Kenpo exists primarily in the physical world, when I moved to pen and paper, I feel that some of the rules and principles and applications became more clear and more understood.


    As a further example - In our school, the first technique on the Black Belt chart (learned as a 1st degree brown student), is Falling Falcon. I especially like this because the attack is almost the same attack as Delayed Sword. In our school, the first technique you learn, and the first technique you learn to achieve your black belt, share a Right Direct Lapel grab. This connects the black belt student back to the first day of training. A Yellow Belt attempting to teach a new student would be unaware of that connection. (Now maybe the connection is only in my perception - but I think a broader scope of knowlege should exist before teaching).


    Promotions in American Kenpo are divided into levels in which the accumulation of application is measured. When the student can competently remember the sequence of basics that comprise techniques; the names of those techniques; the application of those techniques, and the forms and sets used to catalog the system, they are ready to be measured.

    Thanks for allowing me to share.

    Well put Sir,
    Thank you
    Brad Marshall SP
    KKFI

    trgodbm@yahoo.com

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    Default Re: Question about whena student is ready for promotion.

    Thank you for the answers. The reason I ask is in my school it is encouraged for everyone to assist anyone of a lower ranking with their basics, forms and techniques. Another reason is that I read a testing requirement writtne online for a school (I can't remember which) that the student must be able to teach the panel the ideal phase of the technique. This school claims to be doing it exactly as Mr. Parker passed it on.

    Putting these two together, you can see where my question came from.

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    Default Re: Question about whena student is ready for promotion.

    First off as stated before not everyone desires to teach, and more to the fact not everyone is cutout to be a teacher

    Quote Originally Posted by jjpregler View Post
    Thank you for the answers. The reason I ask is in my school it is encouraged for everyone to assist anyone of a lower ranking with their basics, forms and techniques.
    There is a distinct difference between assisting those lower than you and teaching those lower than you.

    Quote Originally Posted by jjpregler View Post
    Another reason is that I read a testing requirement writtne online for a school (I can't remember which) that the student must be able to teach the panel the ideal phase of the technique. This school claims to be doing it exactly as Mr. Parker passed it on.

    Putting these two together, you can see where my question came from.
    There is also a difference between imparting your knowledge of a technique to a testing panel compared to teaching to someone who has less knowledge than yourself.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Question about whena student is ready for promotion.

    Quote Originally Posted by jjpregler View Post
    Thank you for the answers. The reason I ask is in my school it is encouraged for everyone to assist anyone of a lower ranking with their basics, forms and techniques. Another reason is that I read a testing requirement writtne online for a school (I can't remember which) that the student must be able to teach the panel the ideal phase of the technique. This school claims to be doing it exactly as Mr. Parker passed it on.

    Putting these two together, you can see where my question came from.

    As Mr. Parker passed it on to whom?

    Mr. Parker taught the same material different ways to different people
    Brad Marshall SP
    KKFI

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    Default Re: Question about whena student is ready for promotion.

    Michaeldward states it very well. Doing a technique and understanding it are 2 different things. I think most of us have seen the "Karate Chimp" videos.

    Rob Broad also make a couple of good points. he said not everyone is cut out to teach. How true. One of the biggest mistakes ever made was to call all Black Belts Sensei or Sifu. Some will never develope the skills to teach no matter how long they are at it. Dosen't mean they are not a good Black Belt.
    Teaching is a seperate skill and some have it and some don't.. They should leave the teaching to others that do.

    Also Rob is right about who you are explaining a technique to. You don't have to show a lower belt that you understand a technique.but you do have to show an examining board that you do.

    I am most Respecfully,
    sifuroy

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    Default Re: Question about whena student is ready for promotion.

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement.

    A student may learn the basics that compomise a technique, and be able to execute them in the correct manner, but, this does not equate with being able to teach the technique.
    I agree with the above.

    The requirements for a student learning is much different than for an instructor's skills needed for teaching.

    I assume this mix-up of clarification is because many studios require their intermediate ranks to teach as a part of "FREE LABOR" (it's AGAINST THE LAW).

    It's not good for the school, nor is it good for the student to have such a requirement.

    We do take students that show abilities that are teacher orientated, and then we teach them how and what to teach.

    It is a different skill set than NORMAL and USUAL skill sets necessary for belt rank promotion.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: Question about whena student is ready for promotion.

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    I agree with the above.

    The requirements for a student learning is much different than for an instructor's skills needed for teaching.

    I assume this mix-up of clarification is because many studios require their intermediate ranks to teach as a part of "FREE LABOR" (it's AGAINST THE LAW).

    It's not good for the school, nor is it good for the student to have such a requirement.

    We do take students that show abilities that are teacher orientated, and then we teach them how and what to teach.

    It is a different skill set than NORMAL and USUAL skill sets necessary for belt rank promotion.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    I somewhat disagree with what you have said. You said that it is not good for a student to have a requirement to assist those of lower rank. First, I may be different from most students, but when I am helping someone of a lower rank I expand on my understanding of what I am teaching. Sometimes a student asks a question that I cannot answer, where I must seek an answer from my instructor. Sometimes a student asks a question of something that I know instinctively, but do not think of it until the question. Sometimes it is something that the student is doing wrong and you have to figure out the best way to explain and correct the mistake.

    I agree with the philosophy of helping others below you. Our school's philosophy is "lessons for life." And taking from another chapter in my life, at NA they teach everyone to give away freely the lessons that they have learned. I think it puts everyone on a shared journey instead of individual pilgrimage.

    However, I will concede that because it has been good for me, that does not mean it will be good for everyone.

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    Default Re: Question about whena student is ready for promotion.

    Quote Originally Posted by jjpregler View Post
    I somewhat disagree with what you have said. You said that it is not good for a student to have a requirement to assist those of lower rank. First, I may be different from most students, but when I am helping someone of a lower rank I expand on my understanding of what I am teaching. Sometimes a student asks a question that I cannot answer, where I must seek an answer from my instructor. Sometimes a student asks a question of something that I know instinctively, but do not think of it until the question. Sometimes it is something that the student is doing wrong and you have to figure out the best way to explain and correct the mistake.

    I agree with the philosophy of helping others below you. Our school's philosophy is "lessons for life." And taking from another chapter in my life, at NA they teach everyone to give away freely the lessons that they have learned. I think it puts everyone on a shared journey instead of individual pilgrimage.

    However, I will concede that because it has been good for me, that does not mean it will be good for everyone.
    Well I do agree that the "experience" of training others gives the trainer more experience.

    That is a valid statement.

    BUT...

    That is NOT what I was referencing.

    NOR is that "learning philosophy" what this thread was originally about.

    So I suggest you read my post again. Read Rob's post again. And read Sifuroy's post again.

    Clarity through repetition is also a Master Key of learning.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: Question about whena student is ready for promotion.

    At our school you got a stripe on your belt when you tested for a particular segment of that belt that was required. There were 5 stripes per belt level. White and Yellow= Basics, Techniques, Forms, Sets, Knowledge, Orange-Brown= Techniques (From both Sides), Forms, Sets, Knowledge, Endings/extensions/blends. When you felt you were ready to test for a particular stripe you would tell the instructor and he would test you after class, if you had that segment down stone cold you got your stripe. Then after you got all 5, you would ask to be reviewed (when you were ready) for a pre-test which was the same as your belt test but it didn't count. It would get taped and then reviewed with the head instructor and you would be shown on the video where your weakness lay and what needed to be fixed for the actual test. Once all the corrections were made and techniques tightend up then you would be told when your actual test was. Some people may not like that format because it puts the student in charge of when they test for a stripe, but if you were not ready you would not pass so it really made you take a look at what you were doing, and checking yourself. Once I became an instructor myself I saw that we knew when a student was ready to test, but let them find out on their own and it helped with the confidence a bit I guess. There was a minimum wait period between stripes, so you couldn't test on your techniques today, then come in Friday and test on your form. On average the lower belts took a few months, and the upper belts tooke several months to a year between grades. I got mine in just a hair under 3 years, but I had no children and went to class 4 and sometimes 5 days a week, plus worked out at home a bit, then started assisting classes so I would teach a class then take a class in one day, then was teaching.....so I was fully enveloped in Kenpo and only Kenpo. Now I teach out of my home to a few students, have a baby which takes quite a bit of my time (wife works nights), plus taken up the fine and obsessive hobby of homebrewing. But I really like the smaller size student training, plus they don't have to pay. I just like having moving dummys to beat on when I need to Just kidding, It's a win win situation. I get training partners and get to keep my game sharp, and they get to learn. I do get a few old friends who pop in to work out with us from time to time as well. Wow, for my first post I really rambled on......sorry about that.

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    Default Re: Question about whena student is ready for promotion.

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    Well I do agree that the "experience" of training others gives the trainer more experience.

    That is a valid statement.

    BUT...

    That is NOT what I was referencing.

    NOR is that "learning philosophy" what this thread was originally about.

    So I suggest you read my post again. Read Rob's post again. And read Sifuroy's post again.

    Clarity through repetition is also a Master Key of learning.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    I wasn't attacking you or disagreeing with anything anyone said. I have neither the experience or knowledge to do so. I however took it when you said it was not good for a student that you referred to across the board it is bad. In absolute terms. I do have a different opinion because I do have experience in teaching someone below me and saw how much it did benefit me.

    And for the original thought in this thread, i already underswtand that my underswtanding was way off.

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    Default Re: Question about whena student is ready for promotion.

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post

    Clarity through repetition is also a Master Key of learning.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

    Good words Dr. John,
    Good words. Question came to me however sir. ( Go Figure)

    If ones repetition is flawed, then ones Master Key learning would have no clarity, thus leaving the sheep to the wolves. So what makes a good shepard?

    My Respect Sir
    Brad Marshall SP
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