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Thread: Speed and Power

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    MJS
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    Default Speed and Power

    When you perform a technique, do you focus more on speed or power? Do you feel that one is more important than the other or do they both go hand in hand?

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    Default Re: Speed and Power

    both are very important, but serve two seperate functions.. id say it depends on what im trying to work on dictates what i do.. now if you mean in a technique line. probably speed on people who cant take hits yet. power on people who can. then again, sometimes it depends on the attack, and whos throwing the attack.. if a guy comes in fast, i think most people tend to respond fast, and then stay in speed mode as your body takes over. lol.
    Brian Sheets
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    kit
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    Default Re: Speed and Power

    Great question
    I've taught how to deliver 44 strikes in 18 seconds for years. So yes, I say speed is important. But speed without power is a show, I've seen many an instructor slap his gi and delivery a great yell with each strike, each with blinding speed, wow. Without power 44 strikes in 18 seconds...so what. I believe that you learn correct delivery, target and speed and then tag on power. But the bottom line is does it work on the street. Speed covers the what if, what if you strike for the groin and hit the thigh...go for the temple and hit the top of the head, so speed covers your ass. But include power in each strike and what ever you end up taging him with will count.
    So I would say learn accurate target with speed first then incorporate power.

    As an after thought...there is a guy who considers himself the last word on speed and power, I'm sure he will respond. But remember, all of your in dojo training will be tested on the street(I actually hope not) and no amount of speed can replace power, and if your power is placed well you won't need the speed.

    Kit

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    Default Re: Speed and Power

    Quote Originally Posted by MJS View Post
    When you perform a technique, do you focus more on speed or power? Do you feel that one is more important than the other or do they both go hand in hand?

    I dont focus on either. I allow the spirit of the tech to take over. Yes you have to spend time learning how to apply the techs. Learn the broken timming, allow for the body to react to the strikes etc. Figure out where the apex of the point of contact will be, to project the maxium transfer of power. The techs are more than just subject matter, they are alive. It lives and breaths just as you do, it has strengths and perhaps even a weekness, just as you. Enough said, reads like a Twilight Zone Episode.
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    Default Re: Speed and Power

    Greetings.

    The answer would be... "It depends".

    Too many factors. This is too general a question.

    Power and speed each have their places in execution. More important would be "For a specific technique, should I focus on developing power, speed or 'form' first?"

    Or just focus always on one and see what happens.

    Juan M. Mercado

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    Default Re: Speed and Power

    Quote Originally Posted by MJS View Post
    When you perform a technique, do you focus more on speed or power? Do you feel that one is more important than the other or do they both go hand in hand?
    How about "EFFECTIVENESS" of the targeting for the speed and the power?

    DOC

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    Default Re: Speed and Power

    Quote Originally Posted by MJS View Post
    When you perform a technique, do you focus more on speed or power?
    Neither...my tech work recently has been about precision. It feels like speed and power will both subsequently flow but...I'm not there yet


    Do you feel that one is more important than the other or do they both go hand in hand?
    They blend together, but precision to me is more important..because without that, I will not have proper speed or proper power.

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    Default Re: Speed and Power

    Quote Originally Posted by profesormental View Post
    Too many factors. This is too general a question.
    Quote Originally Posted by profesormental View Post
    Power and speed each have their places in execution. More important would be "For a specific technique, should I focus on developing power, speed or 'form' first?"


    Right on Juan.

    At the Gathering of Eagles 2007 (last month), my first workshop was on the "Lost Master Keys of Speed Hitting for Distance 4!™"

    I had one gentleman (an 8th Dan) demonstrate 5 Swords on another black belt.

    He did a good job.

    He told the Uke to hit him…then he WAITED for the incoming punch…and then BLOCKED the punch, then he did 5 Swords.

    I then told the Uke to "hit me".

    As he cocked his fist to strike me, "I hit him 8 times EFFECTIVELY".

    I did NOT block but just attacked into the "Kenpo Void™" that he inadvertently gave me. Thus saving much time in execution and set-up.

    This is NOT to brag about speed (I am VERY fast), but to point out the first step of any "Kenpo Reactionary Sequence™", the “Kenpo Awareness™” first needed for the "knowing the opposition" and the "Ground (which includes DISTANCING).

    ©DOC

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    Default Re: Speed and Power

    Speed & Power are integrated elements. It'd be a little like asking whether the hose or nozzle are more important in a fireman's hose...
    I'd hope he'd have both.

    Speed without power is dancing.
    Power without speed is weight lifting.

    Form + Fluidity + Speed + Power X Tactic = Kenpo!

    (btw: I've not left out accuracy, I see that as a sub-category of form)

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    Default Re: Speed and Power

    Quote Originally Posted by MJS View Post
    When you perform a technique, do you focus more on speed or power? Do you feel that one is more important than the other or do they both go hand in hand?
    Neither. I focus on executing the technique with proper body mechanics. Through repitition comes familiarity which will eventually produce speed. Through mental focus on proper body mechanics and applied principles comes power.
    So, if you focus on what you're supposed to be doing with a technique instead of how fast you can do it and how far you can knock your uki across the room, you will achieve both speed and power a lot sooner!

    IHMO
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Speed and Power

    Greetings.

    Yesterday we were practicing Combat Scenarios against sucker punches and surprise attacks... which were eventually thrown hard!

    Most got tagged BEFORE the block stopped the punch (which was NOT agreed upon beforehand. Could be haymakers, jabs, cross, straights, etc. from either hand).

    So with proper awareness training and physical training it can be done...

    And this was done while employing language patterns to diffuse and/or assess the situation.

    So there was the verbal communication,

    analog nonverbal communication (non-aggression assuming centered stance),

    awareness for the attackers verbal and nonverbal cues,

    kinesthetic awareness for attack decision intention (which triggers Reactionary Defensive Response),

    then a Technique Sequence.

    I guess it's the same thing as Doc... without the cool terminology! I think I use mostly the old terminology. I learned it mostly from Doc anyways...

    Fortunately, no matter how you call it... it works.


    Juan M. Mercado

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    Default Re: Speed and Power

    Quote Originally Posted by MJS View Post
    When you perform a technique, do you focus more on speed or power? Do you feel that one is more important than the other or do they both go hand in hand?
    Power, delivered from a stable structure, will drive speed. Speed alone cannot drive power, and dissociated from the core, can exist easily without it.

    My opinion, and you know what they say about those.

    D.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: Speed and Power

    Quote Originally Posted by Me in earlier post
    Yesterday we were practicing Combat Scenarios against sucker punches and surprise attacks... which were eventually thrown hard!

    Most got tagged BEFORE the block stopped the punch (which was NOT agreed upon beforehand. Could be haymakers, jabs, cross, straights, etc. from either hand).
    I seem to not be clear in what I meant.

    This is what I meant:

    Most of the times the attacker got tagged BEFORE the block/parry/jam stopped the attack (which was NOT agreed upon beforehand. Could be haymakers, jabs, cross, straights, etc. from either hand).

    Sorry for the confusion... couldn't find the edit button. I guess it disappears after someone posts or something.

    Hope that clarifies.

    Juan M. Mercado

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    bujuts is offline
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    Default Re: Speed and Power

    We have a mantra:

    "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Speed is a result of accuracy."

    Accuracy means more than target accuracy (i.e. aiming), it means accuracy in depth of penetration, angle, alignment, power source(s), timing, effect, weapon formation, target, and intent. With all that in place (which generally from methodical and diligent (and yes, often slow) practice, speed comes very easy.

    On a side note, too often kenpo is practiced as a total outclassing of the attacker - a dazzling rendition of Sweeiping Locking Spinning Thrusting Prongs of Delayed Thundering Hammers of Doom against a wet noodle of an attack. We should evaluate our abilities in terms of utter life-one-the-line stress, rather than the calm, cool, and collected authoritarians of motion XYZ off of the pink belt chart. What is the impact of that desperate, fatigued, and adrenaline-ridden frame of mind on executed technique if "speed" is the paramount focus in one's training?

    The intent is to avoid, hurt, maim, or kill a human being. Speed has always been an easy thing for me to add on once all other aspects are dialed in, and for that reason its not a big focus. To me, speed is an inevitable result, not a conscious destination.

    Old topic, but still a good one.

    Peace

    Steven Brown
    UKF

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    Default Re: Speed and Power

    We should evaluate our abilities in terms of utter life-one-the-line stress, rather than the calm, cool, and collected authoritarians of motion XYZ off of the pink belt chart. What is the impact of that desperate, fatigued, and adrenaline-ridden frame of mind on executed technique if "speed" is the paramount focus in one's training.

    Steven Brown
    UKF[/quote]

    If I may, from a combat vet perspective of one who has experienced just what you have asked. When one reaches that frame of mind nothing matters. Your thoughts and emotions run slower than your responsive actions, your reactions stem from natural defenses of the body, and everything seams to run in segmented blocks of time. You bounce back and forth from the white dot, to the black dot focus and back again.

    Here is a the answer to your question:
    You use a single strike to kill.There is no looking back, to see if it took.There are no flowering forms,or techs, just the memories that follow.
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    Default Re: Speed and Power

    Quote Originally Posted by kit View Post
    I've taught how to deliver 44 strikes in 18 seconds for years. So yes, I say speed is important.
    I about died laughing when I read the above.

    According to any definition anywhere, 2.4 hits per second is NOT speed, but is CONSIDERED "REAL" SLOW.

    In fact its what lock-out taekwon-do calls "speed".

    So I am real curious to what "SPEED" means?

    Group?

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    Ps. an "average" kenpo student, even a gold belt, after being trained an hour in speed concepts can do between 7-9 hits PER SECOND.
    Last edited by John M. La Tourrette; 07-30-2007 at 07:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Speed and Power

    Quote Originally Posted by bujuts View Post
    We have a mantra:

    "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Speed is a result of accuracy."

    Accuracy means more than target accuracy (i.e. aiming), it means accuracy in depth of penetration, angle, alignment, power source(s), timing, effect, weapon formation, target, and intent. With all that in place (which generally from methodical and diligent (and yes, often slow) practice, speed comes very easy.

    The intent is to avoid, hurt, maim, or kill a human being. Speed has always been an easy thing for me to add on once all other aspects are dialed in, and for that reason its not a big focus. To me, speed is an inevitable result, not a conscious destination.
    Actually a nice post.

    And I do disagree with your final statement about "speed is an inevitable result, not conscious destination".

    Why?

    Because your first paragraph presuppositions say that speed is IMPORTANT when certain considerations are adhered to.

    Being FASTER THAN THE OTHER GUY is always very important, AS ARE the many different methods of being faster.

    Faster can mean, being UNSEEN, among other things.

    And the primany presupposition is speed makes the technology MORE EFFECTIVE!!!

    DOC

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    Default Re: Speed and Power

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    Power, delivered from a stable structure, will drive speed. Speed alone cannot drive power, and dissociated from the core, can exist easily without it.
    hUNNNNNNN?

    We need definitions here because the first thing I did was mismatch about every word.

    What is a stable structure?

    What is speed?

    What is power?

    And here's a few more...

    What are complementary energies?

    What constitutes an "effective target"?

    What constitutes an "Effective Weapon"?

    What ranges of fighting are we talking about?

    How badly hurt do they need to be before what you've done can be effective?

    DOC
    Last edited by John M. La Tourrette; 07-30-2007 at 08:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Speed and Power

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    Actually a nice post.
    My thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    And I do disagree with your final statement about "speed is an inevitable result, not conscious destination".

    Why?

    Because your first paragraph presuppositions say that speed is IMPORTANT when certain considerations are adhered to.
    I suppose what I meant was, when I have all of those things nailed down, I'm moving pretty fast anyway. Thing is, we generally take things to the level of invading the spinal column in order to achieve what are for us the fifth and sixth stages of the engagement - contact manipulation and contact maintenance.

    With these, you can only go so fast anyway. Speed isn't a limiting factor at this point, and deception or outspeeding don't seem to apply when I've got his neck in a vise - its about manipulating his skeleton. Striking speed and the time between strikes is only one aspect of what I was considering the whole engagement process. Hope that clarifies.

    Cheers,

    Steven Brown
    UKF

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    Default Re: Speed and Power

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John View Post
    Speed & Power are integrated elements. It'd be a little like asking whether the hose or nozzle are more important in a fireman's hose...
    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John View Post
    I'd hope he'd have both.

    Speed without power is dancing.
    Power without speed is weight lifting.

    Form + Fluidity + Speed + Power X Tactic = Kenpo!

    (btw: I've not left out accuracy, I see that as a sub-category of form)


    Nice post Mr. Haag.

    I keep seeing people showing that they believe "speed" is a neurological thing, when in fact "fast twitch" has little to do with most speed technologies.

    Speed is NOT a chemical you take like Dexedrine or Cocaine.

    Speed is a skill, a process, and it's a skill acquired by doing specific sequences that have as THEIR OUTCOME and THEIR INTENTION, fast, effective, workable skills.

    Here, let me give one example out of White Belt going towards Gold belt.

    Doing Lone Kimono the Parker way will NEVER give speed, though you can get a bit faster by practicing it over and over again.

    But there is a SPEED METHOD™ of doing "Speed Kimono™" that is very fast, totally invisible to the UKE, and is very powerful, much more powerful and 2X’s to 3X’s faster than doing the other way.


    1. Don’t "hold" the hand, but TRAP their hand with your left palm, as you simultaneously...

    2. Use an ulna bone vibrational strike™” to the tendon right behind his locked elbow… (the elbow was locked because you locked it by controlling his distance without him knowing it).

    3. As he floats upward, circle the right hand counter-clockwise and strike downward on his 3 primary nerves on his upper-forearm to propel him with pain directionally in front of you…

    4. Left Two-finger eye shot moves from a “trap” to a solid organ shot, which causes Uke to reflexively move away from those two tiny little itty bitty finger tips which have blinded him (alternative strike, a left hollow palm strike to his left forehead neurovasculars) and does spread wide the throat so your can do just about any thing you choose from your intelligence base, fear of the LORD, or fear of the LAW…

    5. Right upward Shuto shrike to his Hyoid bone (alternative targets, Adam’s Apple, SCM on the right side of his neck, Philtrum, etc), which propels him away from you…

    6. Finish off this SPEED SEQUENCE™ with a left outward heel-palm strike to the left side of his skull. Many possible valid targets there. The neuro-vasculars on the frontal side of head. The “hole” where the Triple Warmer Meridian ends by the outer eye-brow. The flat bone which can easily and effectively be struck with the pisiform bone.

    So a total of 6 (or MORE effective strikes depending on chosen targets and twitching of the worm on the hook) done in ½ of a second, when the normal Lone Kimono takes about two seconds and has only 3 hits (4 if you count the grab).

    ©DOC
    Ps. I did leave off many/most of the Master Keys because even to put the simple Master Keys written for SPEED KIMONO™ would take 40 or more pages. For example, two months ago when we put up that simple SPEED DEMO on youtube, I also wrote (for my own students) a manual to point out some of the various concepts used in those 5 minutes, which turned into a 107 page, 8 1/2 X 11 manual.

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