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    Default Frank Soto and Kenetica

    anyone know much about this fellow, i haven't heard of him before.. iv seen some clips on youtube.. very nice, fluid... lots of umm.. whipping motions.. seemingly unusual angles of attack. it looks like it would be a fun Kenpo flavor to experience

    anyone have any personal experience with Kenetica or mr. Soto?
    Brian Sheets
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    Default Re: Frank Soto and Kenetica

    I'm not quite sure what to think of Mr. Soto. As a smaller person I don't find clips of bigger guys tossing smaller guys around to be that inspiring. But, I wouldn't be against working out with a Kinética stylist to see what they are about.

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    Default Re: Frank Soto and Kenetica

    He will be here in Omaha Ne in mid August, as luck would have it,
    I happen to live in Omaha. Im sure it will be fun so I will let you know how it went.
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    Default Re: Frank Soto and Kenetica

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    He will be here in Omaha Ne in mid August, as luck would have it,
    I happen to live in Omaha. Im sure it will be fun so I will let you know how it went.
    Lucky you! That sounds like a great time!

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    Default Re: Frank Soto and Kenetica

    anyone know much about this fellow, i haven't heard of him before.. iv seen some clips on youtube.. very nice, fluid... lots of umm.. whipping motions.. seemingly unusual angles of attack. it looks like it would be a fun Kenpo flavor to experience

    anyone have any personal experience with Kenetica or mr. Soto?


    Frank is a very nice personal guy. He is always very fast to reply by email and offers excellent answers and or clarification to most Kenpo subject matter.

    Frank is the man!

    Regards,
    Carl from Atlanta, Ga

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    Default Re: Frank Soto and Kenetica

    Quote Originally Posted by Carol Kaur View Post
    Lucky you! That sounds like a great time!
    I look forward to it.
    I am sure there will be a lot of pressure on him. Anyone who has ever taught any subject understands the stress. The last thing they want is to come across poorly. Its also hard when you know that the people you are in front of know a little about the subject thats being taught. Now with the internet,fourms,You Tube etc, word spreads fast. But I respect those who place theirself in a posistion to be judged.


    I think this is a true example of Point Of Orgin
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    Exclamation Re: Frank Soto and Kenetica

    Quote Originally Posted by madeku View Post
    anyone know much about this fellow, i haven't heard of him before.. iv seen some clips on youtube.. very nice, fluid... lots of umm.. whipping motions.. seemingly unusual angles of attack.
    Are you serious?


    By unusual angles of attack I assume you are speaking in code for "wrong angles of attack.

    I see him push people around rather than striking. I see him violate lots of principles. I see him do pretty much everything in a sloppy manner.

    Why people rave about this guy I do not understand.

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    Default Re: Frank Soto and Kenetica

    Quote Originally Posted by MysticJedi View Post
    Are you serious?


    By unusual angles of attack I assume you are speaking in code for "wrong angles of attack.

    I see him push people around rather than striking. I see him violate lots of principles. I see him do pretty much everything in a sloppy manner.

    Why people rave about this guy I do not understand.
    Time will tell.
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    Default Re: Frank Soto and Kenetica

    Quote Originally Posted by MysticJedi View Post
    Are you serious?


    By unusual angles of attack I assume you are speaking in code for "wrong angles of attack.

    I see him push people around rather than striking. I see him violate lots of principles. I see him do pretty much everything in a sloppy manner.

    Why people rave about this guy I do not understand.

    what are the wrong angles of attack?
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    Default Re: Frank Soto and Kenetica

    Quote Originally Posted by MysticJedi View Post
    Are you serious?


    By unusual angles of attack I assume you are speaking in code for "wrong angles of attack.

    I see him push people around rather than striking. I see him violate lots of principles. I see him do pretty much everything in a sloppy manner.

    Why people rave about this guy I do not understand.
    i was trying to say unorthodox, thats a better word.. would you say Capoeira is unorthodox as well? not as extreme, but i was refering mostly the whipping motions in his hands. havent really seen that before.. the pushing could very well be just how he controls his hits. maybe thats how he actually intends to strike. not sure..
    Brian Sheets
    VKKSI Kenpo 1st Black

    Only a warrior chooses pacifism; others are condemned to it." ~ Unknown
    "Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting, but never hit soft." Theodore Roosevelt



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    Default Re: Frank Soto and Kenetica

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    what are the wrong angles of attack?

    The ones that miss a target or hit it nearly parallel.

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    Default Re: Frank Soto and Kenetica

    Quote Originally Posted by MysticJedi View Post
    The ones that miss a target or hit it nearly parallel.

    I have never seen Mr. Soto in person,only small clips here and there.
    So without having heard all the subject in person, I will keep an open mind. Has anyone here been to one of his seminars?
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    Default Re: Frank Soto and Kenetica

    Quote Originally Posted by MysticJedi View Post
    The ones that miss a target or hit it nearly parallel.
    Can you expand a little on what you mean by parallel....I'm kind of thinking of a temple, solar plexus, coccyx, etc. While the temple and solar plexus are "points," the coccyx is a "line."

    I can can strike in a direction that is parallel with the coccyx from the top or the bottom only (like shooting pool). I can strike it with a limb being parallel to it, but moving perpendicular to it (like swinging a bat) .

    Otherwise I cannot think of striking a point in a perpendicular (90) or a parallel (180) angle because they are points.

    Thanks.

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    Default Re: Frank Soto and Kenetica

    Quote Originally Posted by madeku View Post
    i was trying to say unorthodox, thats a better word.. would you say Capoeira is unorthodox as well? not as extreme, but i was refering mostly the whipping motions in his hands. havent really seen that before.. the pushing could very well be just how he controls his hits. maybe thats how he actually intends to strike. not sure..
    Mr. Soto also spent some time aligned with seniors from Lima Lama, a cousin art to kenpo founded by some early kenpo Seniors, and a couple guys that even functioned as senior students to Mr. Parker in various contexts. In approx the mid to late 60's, Mr. Parker started utilizing more of the Splashing Hands kung-fu from Ark Wong. One of Mr. Wongs senior Splashing Hands students was a large samoan named Haumea "Tiny" Lefiti. Mr. Lefiti was one of the co-founders of limalama, along with 2 Parker black belts, a kajukenbo black belt, and a lua professor from Hawaii. Mr. Parker facilitated the introductions, having met Tiny at the LA kwoon of Mr. Wong. Mr. Lefiti was the inheritor of a certain lineage of Splashing Hands, and it was considered "lost", except for Tiny's info; he later hooked up with Mr. Wong, who also knew the discipline, and functioned for a spell as the AI for these get togethers.

    The whipping hands, rotational torque, rebounding, recoil, fulcruming, and many of the other things in kenpo we have biased our eyes to recognizing as EPAK were imported into kenpo by Mr. Parker, as a result of his exposure to the flowering and plum blossom splashing hands methods.

    Mr. Songer: When you are rifling off rapid hand combinations, or admiring Mr. Mills for his talent for doing the same, you are using or admiring a Parker interpretation of these other methods, tailored to drive the universal/master key movements within the Parker system. Limalama has several sets and drills used solely to entrain the body to find orbits on the fly, from positions that are chambered within the previous orbit itself. (I suspect there is a D1-D2 correlation in there, but one of y'all will know more about it than I)...looks like a combo of hula hands and kenpo techniques, which might not be far off the mark, considering the influence of lua from Mr. Kaihewalu.

    What Mr. Soto did -- visible to anyone who has done anything similar -- is study the heck out of footage of Mr. Parker and other Polynesian heavy-handed fast movers, and try to embody the "-ism's" of the constant signature they share...The same signature evident in Mr. Parkers movements, Mr. Tuiolesega's movements (learned from Tiny in limalama instructor training sessions and Parker in Chinese kenpo era), stressed in the AKKI, and missing from so many kenpo practitioners' physical performance of their understanding: Fluid, powerful speed, delivered from a structurally sound but mobile platform, in rapid succession to overwhelm and overcome an opponent. A movement signature that can't be found in Repeating Maces, but can be applied to it to put it on steroids.

    The Hawaiians are notorious for cross-pollenation. Someone starts something cool, and eventually an emissary form another family/system shows up, trains to obtain the "flavor" of the cool new thing, then takes it back home to his original studio or club. Much of the "flavor" of what is now Hawaiian-based kenpo arts is derived from this nucleus, more than from the linear-but-fast movements of Mr. Chow. Watch his non-Parker 1st gen seniors...fast and hard, but not the logically successive, interlacing circles and semi-circles finding velocitiy within each other typified by Mr. P. or his seniors who paid attention to details, or his cousin arts. Mr. Soto had a snippet on youtube that started with some footage of Tino Tuiolesega doing a Five-Swords based limalama technique (uke wearing the leopard patch)...excellent speed, flow, penetration, all on par with where Mr. Parker was at during the same time frame, and it ended with (ready for this?) pushing the guy around to finally put him down after beating on him. The dress code in the vid looked circa late 60's-early 70's...of course it's possible Uncle Tino just lacked taste, or preferred the liesure suit look of the disco era, but I doubt it. So, if you're gonna bust Frank's chops for mimicking the demonstrated stylistic habits of his instructional Senior, then you need to stand in line to have your attempts at applying Mr. Mills' techology to your own movement equally mocked.

    Re: Principles... Pushing... Structural integrity is retained when the practitioner bends at the waist volitionally, as opposed to being bent. I've been the dummy for a couple of guys who move this way, and I assure you...bending at the waist of their own accord has not hampered their speed or strength. More importantly, it's a testable assertion. I would suggest having a specific discussion of this matter with Mr. Mils, and see if he thinks his or Mr. Parker's speed or power diminish when they adjust their bodies in a bend to track their target.

    A push can convert to a strike at all-out speeds, just as easily as a pulled hyper-speed strike can be not-pulled, and allowed to penetrate. I personally prefer the "slow push" training method to the "faster pulled-shot" training, because he will never suffer from the dysfunction that comes from training all out, short of the depth penetration in the desired target. Seen that trap too many times, including in my own development.

    I admire the tenacity and irreverence with which you've busted slow-mo kenpo in the chops, and shaken the boring orthodox priests of kenpo with the heretical notion that the techs are there to teach motion, not be the actual motion...and that the status quo is so sub-par, that we are at risk of losing the proper tone of kenpo in action. It's regularly my position, as well, and often the position of any decent oldsters; I have not yet met a direct student of Mr. P. who thought otherwise; canonization is a tendency of people who, lacking leadership or the courage of independence, seek the comfort in dogma. "Confidence takes control; non-confidence engineers it".

    I would offer that the momentum you've gained might be slightly misplaced by targeting Mr. Soto: He is one of the few out there who, like Mr. Mills, has used a study of gaseous motion and anatomical determinants of orbits and speed to break out of the mold, and start exploring how to put it on. He's not been at it as long as Mills, but when he has -- aside from body-type differences in movement (obviously different builds, which will cause necessary adaptations in tailoring) -- there won't be much difference. People who walk this road often get referred to as "progressive kenpo" practitioners; it's supposed to be an insult when used by orthodox kenpoistas, but is often embraced in pride by those branded as such. Mr. Mills is one: admired by his followers, hated by the kenpo orthodoxy. There are others. Mr. Soto is also one, even though you don't like what you see when viewing him through Mills-tinted glasses. And "while not all paths lead to the same destination, the types of people who choose certain paths often reach the same conclusions, given time". I'll let you guess who the quote is from.

    Loving the contributions. Keep 'em coming!

    Dr. Dave
    ...Heretical progressive kenpoist in the Parker tradition.
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    Default Re: Frank Soto and Kenetica

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    what are the wrong angles of attack?
    Maybe they are different than the guy complaining does?

    For a post like that to be productive to the rest of us...

    ...just MAYBE he can explain what "he" means when he says "angles of attack", and how the other guy is NOT EFFECTIVE when he does his own version?

    I really do NOT appreciate people that gripe without giving some type of specifics and a VERIFICATON PROCESS of "reason why".

    But that's just me.

    DOC

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    Default Re: Frank Soto and Kenetica

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    The dress code in the vid looked circa late 60's-early 70's...of course it's possible Uncle Tino just lacked taste, or preferred the liesure suit look of the disco era, but I doubt it.
    I dunno, you might have been too young, but I looked good in my green leisure suit. But then again, I look good in anything.

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    Default Re: Frank Soto and Kenetica

    I admire the tenacity and irreverence with which you've busted slow-mo kenpo in the chops, and shaken the boring orthodox priests of kenpo with the heretical notion that the techs are there to teach motion, not be the actual motion.

    Well I am one of those who carry the notion that techs do teach motion,they are examples to focus on specific principles of application. I also belive if thats all you know then thats what you do,thus being the motion to be applied. My views may be of an orthodox manner,however my application outside the box isnt. Progressive Kenpo is just that, some day it will become traditional. So I guess I will just bore myself for a while.
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    Default Re: Frank Soto and Kenetica

    Here's a clip of Mr. Soto.


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    Default Re: Frank Soto and Kenetica

    I'd just like to see him demo more on bigger guys. But then, I've told him as much, taking my comments to the eyes/ears of the recipient.

    D.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: Frank Soto and Kenetica

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    I admire the tenacity and irreverence with which you've busted slow-mo kenpo in the chops, and shaken the boring orthodox priests of kenpo with the heretical notion that the techs are there to teach motion, not be the actual motion.

    Well I am one of those who carry the notion that techs do teach motion,they are examples to focus on specific principles of application. I also belive if thats all you know then thats what you do,thus being the motion to be applied. My views may be of an orthodox manner,however my application outside the box isnt. Progressive Kenpo is just that, some day it will become traditional. So I guess I will just bore myself for a while.
    What Mr. Parker did with kenpo was new and revolutionary in a time when tradition was favored under the illusion of, "if it was good enough for the Samurai, it's goo enough for me...in today's world, for modern threats." Kenpo came up under a directive that it be effective in modern self-defense. Part of that revolution was to adapt, or become extinct. Depending on who you talk to, I'm either a dusty old fogey sticking too close to the old ways, or an upstart rebel who's abandoned the traditions of his tribal elders.

    Slide over on that "bore myself" bench & make room for another, cuz hereI come. I present some old training prep methods dropped out from many approaches, and fit them to some latter approaches to executing movements. Not exactly sure if that means I'm doing it the new way, or the old way. Oh well. Whaddyagonnado.

    Best Regards,

    D.
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