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Thread: Contact In Your Training

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    MJS
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    Default Contact In Your Training

    How much contact do you have in your school? Too much, not enough?

    IMO, I think that the contact should begin at least within a months time. Start off light, and gradually work up to a harder contact. The Martial Arts involve contact. I'd think that the majority of people that join the arts, do so for self defense, therefore, better to get used to the contact in the dojo, where mistakes can be corrected, rather than outside, when you may need to rely on your skills.

    Thoughts/comments?

    Mike

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    Default Re: Contact In Your Training

    Personally, I feel that contact is very important. Without it, you are getting pretty crap training. There was a famous tennis trainer who was once asked how best to get better at tennis. His answer was "Play lots of tennis." In much the same vein, what do we do to get better at fighting? We practice fighting! Since fighting is all about contact, you need lots of it.

    I personally like as much contact as possible while keeping the safety of the participants in mind. I like the Kyokushinkai's idea... full contact with no padding. This teaches you what is and isn't feasible in a real fight. Kyokushin Karate guys don't punch to the face like other martial arts do. Why? Since they spar unpadded, they'll break their hands. Right now, there are thousands of guys out there sparring with gloves and helmets, and learning to punch to the face. When they do that in a real fight, they'll get hurt.

    Of course, this is an ideal; not everyone can handle training at such a level. Also, it is good to slowly work a student up with contact. At my kenpo school, we start out with medium-ish contact point sparring, then work up to full-contact free sparring, and eventually at brown belt to full-contact with groin shots, throws, and grappling.
    Parker Kenpo Karate

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    Default Re: Contact In Your Training

    Quote Originally Posted by MJS View Post
    How much contact do you have in your school? Too much, not enough?
    Neither,
    When executing techniques or sparring,
    I personally try to gauge my contact based on my opponent's tolerance.
    Some want realistic training with a lot of contact
    while others train for fun and don't expect much contact.
    Everyone is different and I try to respect that,
    by not delivering too much or not enough.
    The porridge should not be too hot or too cold,
    it should be just right.
    What have I learned from this???

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    Default Re: Contact In Your Training

    nice point gauge tolerance based on particular opponent's
    i have heard it used a couple of times
    as i have never spared in a dojo i cannot really comment but i have spared with a few friends outside of the dojo (with and without gear) and i have found that this is a standard that my friends have taken towards me ie they hit as hard as they get hit
    didnt work that way for me as i dont know my own strenght but i learned that the hard way hehehe

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    Default Re: Contact In Your Training

    Quote Originally Posted by MJS View Post
    How much contact do you have in your school? Too much, not enough?

    IMO, I think that the contact should begin at least within a months time. Start off light, and gradually work up to a harder contact. The Martial Arts involve contact. I'd think that the majority of people that join the arts, do so for self defense, therefore, better to get used to the contact in the dojo, where mistakes can be corrected, rather than outside, when you may need to rely on your skills.
    Depends on what you mean by contact.

    I refuse to use that word.

    If you use that word, then it presupposes in a court of law that you intentionally HIT him.

    And he can sue you more easily.

    So we do NOT do contract.

    But we do teach CONTROL.

    And we do spar with pads, safety gear and TOTAL CONTROL.

    Just a thought.
    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: Contact In Your Training

    Quote Originally Posted by kihon View Post
    I personally like as much contact as possible while keeping the safety of the participants in mind. I like the Kyokushinkai's idea... full contact with no padding. This teaches you what is and isn't feasible in a real fight. Kyokushin Karate guys don't punch to the face like other martial arts do. Why? Since they spar unpadded, they'll break their hands. Right now, there are thousands of guys out there sparring with gloves and helmets, and learning to punch to the face. When they do that in a real fight, they'll get hurt.
    I like the way Kyokushin trains, except for the lack of head shots. They are a significant weapon in a real fight, I wouldn't choose to neglect training that weapon (and we fight the way we train, right?). Proper hand conditioning goes a long way towards mitigating the risk of injury when you pop someone good to the face or head.

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    Default Re: Contact In Your Training

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark L View Post
    I like the way Kyokushin trains, except for the lack of head shots. They are a significant weapon in a real fight, I wouldn't choose to neglect training that weapon (and we fight the way we train, right?). Proper hand conditioning goes a long way towards mitigating the risk of injury when you pop someone good to the face or head.
    I like what you said,

    ...and I don't understand part of it.

    We do train our hands on concrete slabs daily...

    ...because of that concrete slab training, when we hit people lightly with our knuckles we "cut" them.

    So we MUST wear gloves to keep all people safe when we/they spar each other.

    I also love what Mas Oyama did with karate. I do have one 3rd dan here working out with us for the past 11 years.

    Nice strikes.
    Dr. John

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    Default Re: Contact In Your Training

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo-Sloth View Post
    Neither,
    When executing techniques or sparring,
    I personally try to gauge my contact based on my opponent's tolerance.
    Some want realistic training with a lot of contact
    while others train for fun and don't expect much contact.
    Everyone is different and I try to respect that,
    by not delivering too much or not enough.
    The porridge should not be too hot or too cold,
    it should be just right.
    Porridge?

    Do you throw it at them?

    Then it must be real HOT!

    Dr. John

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    Default Re: Contact In Your Training

    You have to have some form of "contact" in Kenpo otherwise it becomes some type of air karate with no realistic movement or feel.

    If your Uki does not move ... gently move them to where they would be after a strike to that area. We hit pretty hard to the body and either stop just short to the correct target on a face strike or continue it through slowly and move them.

    To train other than that will teach improper body mechanics, positioning, alignments, etc.

    Contact changes throughout your training ... obviously we don't beat up the new guys but when they see the black belts moving through some techniques they know what to expect in the future.

    This video clip is a good example of proper contact during technique training.

    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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    Default Re: Contact In Your Training

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    Porridge?

    Do you throw it at them?

    Then it must be real HOT!

    Dr. John
    Of course you don't throw it at them..........

    You drown them in it
    What have I learned from this???

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    Default Re: Contact In Your Training

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo-Sloth View Post
    Of course you don't throw it at them..........

    You drown them in it
    You guys are making me hungry.
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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    Default Re: Contact In Your Training

    IMHO....
    If you're training in a self-defense oriented art there is going to be "some" contact. I do think that there are various degrees of "contact" though and that's why some shcools have a separate class for higher ranks or those that simply want more "realism" in their training.

    That being said, the issue of self-control comes to mind. A target, even one that exists in space a few inches from an Uki's nose, is still a target and requires focus to "hit." So, I do feel that you can still effectively train with minimum contact because if you can hit a space in time, you can hit any target you're truely focused on regardless of whether it's an inch in front of the nose or an inch beyond it. -heh.

    I feel it is the instructors responsibility to explain the common physical reactions to specific attacks so that the student, or uki can adjust during the practice of a technique. But that goes hand-in-hand with explaining the principles behind what we do.

    -my 0.02
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Contact In Your Training

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    I like what you said,

    ...and I don't understand part of it.

    We do train our hands on concrete slabs daily...

    ...because of that concrete slab training, when we hit people lightly with our knuckles we "cut" them.

    So we MUST wear gloves to keep all people safe when we/they spar each other.

    I also love what Mas Oyama did with karate. I do have one 3rd dan here working out with us for the past 11 years.

    Nice strikes.
    Dr. John
    The inference I've gotten about the Kyokushin practitioners is that they avoid head shots so they won't break their hands. By conditioning the hands (gradually developing the capability to hit hard things hard) you can lessen the chances of incurring a hand break when you contact the head. Given that, I do wear (finger-less) gloves to protect my opponent, not myself.

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    Default Re: Contact In Your Training

    I will mix up the level of contact. I came from a system years ago where pads were forbidden. We developed excellent “kime”, or focus, as a result. Good training for that type of fighting. In kenpo, though, I learned the real importance of impact manipulation – no target penetration, no movement of the body. So kenpo only works so well if we don’t penetrate when we hit.

    ‘Course, there’s always that damn safety thing that rears its head. The way I see it, we can pull speed, pull penetration, or pad up in order to avoid injury. A lot of body shots can be taken bare knuckle at reasonable power levels, depending on the partner. The method of my old system was to pull penetration and keep speed and body mechanics, but to get the effects of impact manipulation as kenpo requires, I will more often penetrate fully and pull speed.

    At the same time, though, I want my strikes, and those of my students, to exceed the physical capacity of a human body to take the shot. You can’t “tough out” a pointed elbow in the lung meridian over and over, you can’t “deal with” full powered hammer fists to the kidney repeatedly, you can’t kiai your way out of an elbow dropping onto your clavicle. Head shots aren’t “punches to the head”, they’re third knuckle shots to the zygomatic or xyphoid bones, elbow sandwiches to the back of the mandibles, etc. In observance of this, I’ve lately been experimenting with focused mits held tight to the body. One student of mine is a fireplug of a man, about 5’6” and ~190 lbs, former hockey player. We were drilling the opening move of Attacking Mace the other day, refining the angle of the fist to best capture the desired target on the body. I wanted full speed, full power. I can take a few of these, but 50 to 100 in a session? No, don’t think so. It pleases me when I genuinely have to ask a student to “back off”. So, in these drills, I’ve begun experimenting with different options in protection to allow the student to get the full effect of the movement.

    Good topic, look forward to more.

    Cheers,

    Steven Brown
    UKF

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    Default Re: Contact In Your Training

    Plain and simple, we intentionally hit each other in my classes. Being in Canada we are not litigation happy, and our waiver's protect us from law suits from students who get hit.

    I build up the contact with the student over time, from feather like touches to the level of contact you see on my video on my website. It has to be a natural progression, those that can't take it or won't can go to my competitors school and ruin it. I teach self defense techniques that need to be felt.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Contact In Your Training

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    Plain and simple, we intentionally hit each other in my classes. Being in Canada we are not litigation happy, and our waiver's protect us from law suits from students who get hit..
    Then I must move to Canada.

    Al was talking about losing 8 1/2 million dollars because of a lawsuit that started with one of his franchises.

    Dr. John La Tourrette

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    Default Re: Contact In Your Training

    Jamie and I fight medium to Full Contact twice a week { most weeks] and our techs are done with contact, with good control as John has mentioned.

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    Default Re: Contact In Your Training

    "Let's all move to Canada right now! Here's how we'll do it...bum rush the border gaurd before he and his dog ever knew it!"

    ...I wonder how many folks will get that one? LOL
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Contact In Your Training

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    "Let's all move to Canada right now! Here's how we'll do it...bum rush the border gaurd before he and his dog ever knew it!"

    ...I wonder how many folks will get that one? LOL
    Hey, I resemble that remark!

    As long as you don't have anything to declare you will get through without any trouble at all....ours don't carry guns...yet

    BTW, anyone know the price of gas in MIchigan these days? With our dollar almost at par it's probably worth going there to buy stuff now.

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