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Thread: Kenpo Rank vs. Academic Rank

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    Default Kenpo Rank vs. Academic Rank

    http://americankenpoforum.com/blogs/...mic-ranks.aspx

    I found this to be interesting. I actually have a Masters in something . Take a look.

    Thanks James
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


    "Praying Mantis, very good. . . For catching bugs." --Jackie Chan

    "A horse stance is great for taking a dump" --Jet Li

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    Default Re: Kenpo Rank vs. Academic Rank

    I personally feel that a black belt is worth academic rank. You're studying a legitimate field (self-defense; fight science; personal combat; whatever you want to call it) and I think that knowledge should be recognized. It would be nicer if actual universities gave degrees in martial arts, but I'm not holding my breath. I can't say I really agree with the listings there, though, as I think first dan is more like an associate's degree...
    Parker Kenpo Karate

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    profesormental is offline
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    Default Re: Kenpo Rank vs. Academic Rank

    Greetings.

    I mostly agree with the comparison, and further note that ranks above 5th are administrative and organizational positions after getting the rank of professor.

    So they are dependent upont the organization that the professor belongs to.

    Thanks for the post!

    Juan M. Mercado

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    Default Re: Kenpo Rank vs. Academic Rank

    I dunno, I'd probably lean towards a no on this. I certainly recognize the significant time and effort (both physical and intellectual) required to achieve BB ranking, but I don't think it is really an academic pursuit. What would you think of your particular State University awarding the Bachelor of, Master of, and Doctor of [Football, Basketball, Baseball, etc.]?

    I suppose we could argue over the teacher vs. participant roles, where expertise in practice and education warrants consideration (think physical education). My college roommates' father had a PhD in Sports Physiology and was Full Prof. at the school, we kidded him about being a Doctor of Gym.
    Last edited by Mark L; 06-10-2007 at 11:40 AM. Reason: Punctuation

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    Default Re: Kenpo Rank vs. Academic Rank

    iv always attributed first dan as a "highschool graduate" lol you know your basics, and you're (hopefully) ready for the real world.

    with second being AA, third bachelors, fourth masters, fifth doctorate, 6th professor, etc.

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    KenpoJuJitsu3 is offline
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    Default Re: Kenpo Rank vs. Academic Rank

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark L View Post
    I dunno, I'd probably lean towards a no on this. I certainly recognize the significant time and effort (both physical and intellectual) required to achieve BB ranking, but I don't think it is really an academic pursuit. What would you think of your particular State University awarding the Bachelor of, Master of, and Doctor of [Football, Basketball, Baseball, etc.]?

    I suppose we could argue over the teacher vs. participant roles, where expertise in practice and education warrants consideration (think physical education). My college roommates' father had a PhD in Sports Physiology and was Full Prof. at the school, we kidded him about being a Doctor of Gym.
    James Hawkins III, SI
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    Default Re: Kenpo Rank vs. Academic Rank

    Martial arts rank doesn't mean squat outside of the training studio. Though, many people think that it does.

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    KenpoJuJitsu3 is offline
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    Default Re: Kenpo Rank vs. Academic Rank

    Quote Originally Posted by hongkongfooey View Post
    Martial arts rank doesn't mean squat outside of the training studio. Though, many people think that it does.
    It's an analogy not a literal comparison. I'd hoped that much would be obvious. Apparently not?
    James Hawkins III, SI
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    Default Re: Kenpo Rank vs. Academic Rank

    I'm pickin up-what your puttin down, Kenpoist should hold themselves to the same type of standards in the Academic field or any other field that hold these titles. Beside I believe that Kenpo is extremely Academic, what other system has an Encyclopedia to explain all the terms we use. An just ask the teens in my class how the all did in the health final when they had to name all the bones and organs in the body. It's hard for some to look at a picture and memorize all of these things, so I put it in a context that they would understand, attaching the name of what body part they are striking in a technique, thats cool. They all did extremely well, even though one of the boys got strange looks from his teacher when he started going thru his tech in his seat when he couldn't remember what body part he had to name.

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    Default Re: Kenpo Rank vs. Academic Rank

    you might find this interesting http://satansbarber.co.uk/files/chap...ducational.htm

    also from Martial Science University:
    1. B.S. Degree - (Assistant Instructor) for first degree.
    2. B.S. Degree - (Associate Instructor) for second degree.
    3. B.S. Degree - (Senior Instructor) for third degree.
    4. M.S. Degree - (Senior Head Instructor) for fourth degree.
    5. M.S. Degree - (Master Instructor) for fifth degree.
    6. M.S. Degree - (Senior Master Instructor/Associate Professor) for sixth.
    7. Ph.D. Degree - (Professor) for seventh degree.
    8. Ph.D. Degree - (Senior Professor) for eighth degree.
    9. Ph.D. Degree - (Master Professor) for a ninth degree.
    10. Ph.D. Degree - (Senior Master Professor) for tenth degree
    Coursebook # 101 (72 hours minimum)

    “Introduction to American Kenpo I”

    Course Description:
    This course is the first step in a journey to American Kenpo mastery. Here a student is subjected to the protocol and discipline dominant throughout the system to foster respect and insure safety. A student will learn how to wear the traditional uniform and how to tie its belt. A student will learn how to present themselves for practice, and prepare to study. The lab portion consists of learning basic skills including blocks, strikes, stances. These are than put together into ten basic “Situational Self-Defense Techniques” designed to thwart common everyday attacks.
    The self-defense techniques are then used as a vehicle to begin the process of learning physical principles, concepts, and their applications on the human body. Basic forms are introduced employing basic blocks, and kicks. A basic terminology and vocabulary is established. A student will also learn the history of the “Father of American Karate” Ed Parker Sr., The founder and creator of American Kenpo. The minimum number of “training hours” is separate from study time. The successful completion of a written and physical examination will give a student the equivalent of an Advanced Kenpo “yellow belt.”
    Required Equipment/Supplies: Course 101 Workbook, white heavy Kenpo Uniform, groin protector, mouthguard, black 3 ring binder, etc. and Advanced System Student Body Crest for the front of the uniform.
    Required Text: Volume # 1 - Infinite Insights of American Kenpo, by Ed Parker Sr.
    Optional Text: ”Secrets of Chinese Karate” by Ed Parker Sr.
    Prerequisite: Instructor interview and personal evaluation of the ability to benefit from the program.


    Course # 102 (80 hours minimum)

    “Introduction to American Kenpo II”

    This course is a continuation of the 101 course with more emphasis placed on practical application of previous learned basic skills. Self-Defense techniques are moved to a more physical level....

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    Default Re: Kenpo Rank vs. Academic Rank

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoJuJitsu3 View Post
    It's an analogy not a literal comparison. I'd hoped that much would be obvious. Apparently not?

    I understand that it was an analogy, but thanks for the slam anyway.

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    execkenpo is offline
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    Default Re: Kenpo Rank vs. Academic Rank

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    you might find this interesting http://satansbarber.co.uk/files/chap...ducational.htm

    also from Martial Science University:
    1. B.S. Degree - (Assistant Instructor) for first degree.
    2. B.S. Degree - (Associate Instructor) for second degree.
    3. B.S. Degree - (Senior Instructor) for third degree.
    4. M.S. Degree - (Senior Head Instructor) for fourth degree.
    5. M.S. Degree - (Master Instructor) for fifth degree.
    6. M.S. Degree - (Senior Master Instructor/Associate Professor) for sixth.
    7. Ph.D. Degree - (Professor) for seventh degree.
    8. Ph.D. Degree - (Senior Professor) for eighth degree.
    9. Ph.D. Degree - (Master Professor) for a ninth degree.
    10. Ph.D. Degree - (Senior Master Professor) for tenth degree
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe these are the same analogies SGM Parker used. I think relating levels of bb to university levels of achievment helps people understand the relationship between the work, time and expertise one has.

    Now to play devil's advocate here
    Some will argue that martial achievement "don't mean squat" BUT what about the student of say History, who gets an undergrad degree, then continues into a masters and finally getting a PHD in Ancient Greek History. Does that really translate into the real world? So is there a difference?

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    Default Re: Kenpo Rank vs. Academic Rank

    Quote Originally Posted by execkenpo View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe these are the same analogies SGM Parker used. I think relating levels of bb to university levels of achievment helps people understand the relationship between the work, time and expertise one has.

    Now to play devil's advocate here
    Some will argue that martial achievement "don't mean squat" BUT what about the student of say History, who gets an undergrad degree, then continues into a masters and finally getting a PHD in Ancient Greek History. Does that really translate into the real world? So is there a difference?
    As I'm just killing time till the dentist, I'll bite...

    I think that both the achievements of the martial artist, and someone with a PHD in Ancient Greek History translate into the real world. Both can allow them to earn a living, and earn the respect of their peers. However, I think there is a pretty big difference.

    Both are fairly different pursuits. Someone mentioned that we have an encyclopedia for some of the terms we use. While this is true, and Kenpo contains a lot of knowledge, I don't think the mental aspects of the terminology is something that couldn't be contained in a 3-5 hour class during a semester. The rest is mostly training your body to understand those concepts without having to actively think about them.

    I agree that it's kinda fun to take a look at what are rank might equate to in a university setting, but for me that's all it is. We already have a ranking system that more or less gives people an idea where strangers stand in their training. I don't think we need to try and come up with another. Besides, if BS and MS titles are handed out over such a wide range of rank, what is the point? Wouldn't most people agree there is a big difference between a 3rd black and a 1st black? I think the 10 degrees does a better job than trying to match it to someone than assigning an undergraduate degree for several ranks. In addition, if we want to start doing that are we going to hand out GPA's? Obviously there are going to be differences between black belts of different lineages, but what about differences between black belts at the same school? Should we give the students who excel the 4.0 and the people who don't something worthy of them?

    As I said before, it's fun to think about, but I'm not personally interested in matching my rank to a degree from my university.
    Last edited by Wishbone; 06-11-2007 at 01:51 PM. Reason: Spelling, Clarity

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    Default Re: Kenpo Rank vs. Academic Rank

    Quote Originally Posted by Wishbone View Post
    Wouldn't most people agree there is a big difference between a 3rd black and a 1st black? I think the 10 degrees does a better job than trying to match it to someone who has an undergraduate degree. In addition, if we want to start doing that are we going to hand out GPA's? Obviously there are going to be differences between black belts of different lineages, but what about differences between black belts at the same school? Should we give the students who excel the 4.0 and the people who don't something worthy of them?

    As I said before, it's fun to think about, but I'm not personally interested in matching my rank to a degree from my university.
    I think you're on to something here with your GPA idea. You say that there is a big difference between 1st and 3rd's. There definately SHOULD BE, but we have all seen examples where this is not true.

    As for matching rank to university, that doesn't interest me either and was merely playing devil's advocate to spur conversation. Thanks for playing!

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    Default Re: Kenpo Rank vs. Academic Rank

    Quote Originally Posted by hongkongfooey View Post
    I understand that it was an analogy, but thanks for the slam anyway.
    No slam. I asked a question. But if you took it as a slam you're welcome? I could very well say that you're posting of the ranks "not meaning squat" and "some people thinking they do" as a slam on me since I posted the original comparison that you said "doesn't mean squat." Notice I did not. Less sensitivity please....especially when saying someone else's possible opinion "doesn't mean squat". Pot calling the kettle....? I hope not.
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    Default Re: Kenpo Rank vs. Academic Rank

    Howdy- So what did we decide? Do I have a B.A. Yet?

    VERY interesting topic-- Both points make sense.
    The above is just my opinion.

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    Default Re: Kenpo Rank vs. Academic Rank

    Quote Originally Posted by Dianhsuhe View Post
    Howdy- So what did we decide? Do I have a B.A. Yet?

    VERY interesting topic-- Both points make sense.
    I think I'll just keep my B.B. degree. Where I train it's called a Black Belt. For some it is a Bachelors in Bull.... and the only way to find out which it is, is to "get on the mat"!
    James Hawkins III, SI
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    Default Re: Kenpo Rank vs. Academic Rank

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoJuJitsu3 View Post
    I think I'll just keep my B.B. degree. Where I train it's called a Black Belt. For some it is a Bachelors in Bull.... and the only way to find out which it is, is to "get on the mat"!
    Haha, so that's BB as opposed to BS!

    From what I've seen on your vids I think getting on the mat would be a learning experience. No footage of just you doing techniques though?

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    Default Re: Kenpo Rank vs. Academic Rank

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoJuJitsu3 View Post
    I think I'll just keep my B.B. degree. Where I train it's called a Black Belt. For some it is a Bachelors in Bull.... and the only way to find out which it is, is to "get on the mat"!
    James, I agree 100%

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    Default Re: Kenpo Rank vs. Academic Rank

    Quote Originally Posted by execkenpo View Post
    Haha, so that's BB as opposed to BS!

    From what I've seen on your vids I think getting on the mat would be a learning experience. No footage of just you doing techniques though?
    Soon to come. My brother and I are going to beat on each other soon (he wants revenge for how many times I clipped him at the seminar). Probably going to do some Forms too.
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