Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 32

Thread: Crosstraining

  1. #1
    Dharma_Punk is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    87
    Thanks
    25
    Thanked 19 Times in 12 Posts

    Default Crosstraining

    So lately, I've been finding my Kenpo to have some missing pieces I think I need to fully round out my self defense abilities. A school in town teaches down and dirty street fighting, TKD, Muay Thai, and Jiu-Jitsu. The instructor is certified under Frank Cucci (Navy SEAL trainer), Ernie Reyes, and Pedro Sauer. These qualifications being good and all, I feel odd about cross-training in another art, like I am betraying Kenpo or something. The guy has offered me a one week trial, but after that he requires a six month contract, at $110 a month, which seems fishy to me. The place isn't a McDojo, but something seems off. He said no one has ever gotten a black belt through him, because his program is so hard-core. (Not his words, but that was the extent of what he said) His qualifications check out, and the man really does look hard-core. I am going to give his free trial a go, and see what the deal is. Am I just being impatient and naive to cross-train before getting a black belt in one art? Thoughts?
    Last edited by Dharma_Punk; 05-05-2007 at 12:33 AM.
    "Given enough time, any man may master the physical. With enough knowledge, any man may become wise. It is the true warrior who can master both....and surpass the result." - Tien T'ai
    "If you train very hard, you will be very good." - Remy Presas

  2. #2
    Sentinel is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Orange Belt
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    At home, playing chess with a bust of Julius Caesar
    Posts
    199
    Thanks
    32
    Thanked 97 Times in 46 Posts

    Default Re: Crosstraining

    Yeah, I'll give you some thoughts...

    Of course you have holes in your game. I'm a black belt in kenpo, and I'm still "rounding out my self defense abilities". Seriously, I don't know who your instructor is, but talk to him or her about it. It sounds as if you're wondering A) whether your perceived inadequacies in ability are proper for your level, and B) whether training in your kenpo curriculum alone will ever close those gaps, thereby squaring you up with the mental picture you have of yourself being a "fully equipped" martial artist. I recommend that you identify WHAT it is that you think you're lacking, and then search for answers to your questions within your own system first.

    What would your goal for cross-training be, exactly? To make your kenpo stronger? To come up with a personalized fighting style that suits your tastes? To further study closer ranges of combat? To grab a few extra techniques for attacks that your belt levels haven't addressed yet, or that you feel your kenpo system doesn't address well enough or at all? The answers may already be in your system. Perhaps it's your training methods. Maybe it's that your technique application doesn't feel realistic enough to you. Maybe you don't have faith in some of your techniques. Maybe you don't feel your speed, power, and timing are up to par. Maybe you just need to keep training in kenpo and the proper pieces to the puzzle you're looking at will start falling into place. Then again, maybe not, depending on what it is you're not seeing.

    Cross-training is great. It expands your expertise, exposes you to different ways of doing things you already know, and can help you understand your first art more fully. All of the great masters I can think of off the top of my head have trained in more than one art, whether it was out of predicament, necessity, boredom, or the search for more knowledge. That said, none of that will do you much good if you don't already *understand* what you know about your primary art. Exposure to other arts is one thing, and it's something I would encourage, but spending much time training in another art will hamper your progress in the one you started with.

    My feeling is that a black belt should show a mastery of the basics in an art, and that the mastery of the movements, principles, and life lessons acquired in one art creates a framework which facilitates the understanding of any number of other arts based on their similarities and correlations. If your goal is simply to learn more arts, then I say "great!", but my advice to you is to get your black belt in kenpo first. Otherwise, your cup will likely never be filled with the full taste of your art's tea. Make sure you talk to your instructor about this issue. Remember to ask questions. If you're not asking, you can hardly hope to be on the right track.

    The greatest master I've ever met once told me that nobody has all the answers. Neither will you, whether or not you cross-train. What will be of paramount value to you is your martial arts driver's license--getting your black belt--because at that point you should know how to judge what you see, and you should be able to make solid choices to further your training. At that point, it's truly up to you to decide where to go (or stay), what knowledge to seek, and where to seek it from.
    Last edited by Sentinel; 05-05-2007 at 05:20 AM.

  3. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Sentinel For This Useful Post:

    Celtic_Crippler (05-06-2007),Dianhsuhe (05-07-2007),thedan (05-08-2007)

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Wichita, Kansas, United States
    Posts
    2,467
    Thanks
    2,019
    Thanked 1,277 Times in 709 Posts

    Default Re: Crosstraining

    1st warning sign:
    He's certified under Ernie Reyes.

    Where is he from? Did he live in the same city/town as these three different people that he's 'certified' under? If not, then he wasn't a member of their school and got the cert from other means like seminars or videos through the mail. "CERTIFICATION" means scant little....it can be obtained from giving the right amount of money.

    But Sentinel was rigth on the money.
    I'm NOT against cross-training. I'm against doing so for the wrong reasons though.

    Your Brother
    John
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    ((if you use "FaceBook", look me up there by name))
    "Striving for success without hard work is like trying to harvest where you haven't planted"
    ~ David Bly

  5. #4
    Dharma_Punk is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    87
    Thanks
    25
    Thanked 19 Times in 12 Posts

    Default Re: Crosstraining

    I'm not actually sure where he is from, I know he said he traveled around a lot, and trained a lot in California. The main reason I wish to cross-train is I can't fight on the ground at all. If I go down to the floor, I'm in trouble. I can do a very basic arm bar and maybe elbow the guy, but thats it. My Kenpo school offers no kind of ground work minus the very basics. My instructor doesn't know this guy I've been talking to, but did say that me taking up BJJ or something on the side certainly wouldn't hurt. I also think the Muay Thai would offer me a good opportunity to round out my leg and hand techniques. He said his school does lots of pad work, something my current training is missing and I think will really help my hand techniques. I do think at the very least I'm going to take him up on his free week, and see what he is like. If it reeks of BS then I will go elsewhere. I'm always quick to pass judgment on people that drop names, claim to be great street fighters, and worked with a SEAL trainer, this guy did all of that, but I'll give him a chance to prove himself.
    Last edited by Dharma_Punk; 05-05-2007 at 02:59 PM.
    "Given enough time, any man may master the physical. With enough knowledge, any man may become wise. It is the true warrior who can master both....and surpass the result." - Tien T'ai
    "If you train very hard, you will be very good." - Remy Presas

  6. #5
    ronin6's Avatar
    ronin6 is offline
    KenpoTalk
    3rd. Brown Belt
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Oxford, Massachusetts, United States
    Posts
    723
    Thanks
    29
    Thanked 46 Times in 44 Posts

    Default Re: Crosstraining

    I cross train in BJJ. My BJJ instructor lets me pay as I go / on a per class basis.
    "Fear is the true opiate of combat."

  7. #6
    sifuroy is offline In Memory of our Departed Friend
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    1,027
    Thanks
    958
    Thanked 444 Times in 304 Posts

    Default Re: Crosstraining

    I think is a big mistake to train in 2 styles at once if you are under Black Belt level. You don't have the experience to know who is right about stances and other basics.. Also there are many places where the Basics of one style are a lot different than the other. It will cause you confusion as who is right.

    Also It sounds like the new style( and instructor) you are looking at will try and dominate what you are taking now and probably try and get you to quit your Kenpo. He sounds like he is sure he is allways right and wouldn't tolerate your accidently going into Kenpo stances and they probably wouldn't work for his style. I wouldn't get tied up in a high cost Contract. Give your Kenpo More time. You have not been in it long enough to say it is full of holes. One style at a time is enough until you get to the Balck Belt level and have the experience and judgement to see what you are getting into. Good luck with your choice!!

    I am Most Respectfully,
    Sifuroy

  8. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to sifuroy For This Useful Post:

    Celtic_Crippler (05-06-2007),Dharma_Punk (05-09-2007),Dianhsuhe (05-07-2007),John M. La Tourrette (05-14-2007),Mikael151 (05-06-2007),thedan (05-08-2007)

  9. #7
    Wishbone is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. White Belt
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    28
    Thanks
    4
    Thanked 12 Times in 8 Posts

    Default Re: Crosstraining

    The fact that in your first post you said that you feel something is 'off' speaks volumes. I'd trust your gut on this one. Even before you said that you specifically felt that way just reading it seemed off to me as well. We will always have holes in our fighting game, it's a lifelong journey we take not because there is an end, but because it's the journey that counts and it's damn fun. I'm not exactly sure what you specifically meant by feeling off, but remember, it's not worth your safety or money to gain something that's more likely perceived than tangible.

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Wishbone For This Useful Post:

    Celtic_Crippler (05-06-2007),Dianhsuhe (05-07-2007)

  11. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    1,743
    Thanks
    8
    Thanked 1,181 Times in 674 Posts

    Default Re: Crosstraining

    You're profile says you are green belt. There was once a quote I read over on Martial Talk that said something like; "if you want to know something about kenpo, ask a green belt, they know everything" When I read that quote, I was not yet a green belt, and I thought it was funny. But, when I got to a green belt, I had the distinct feeling that I was gaining a true appreciation for what Kenpo was all about. As I learned the new and required techniques, they seemed to fit; I seemed to 'get it'. And, then ... I started my Brown Belt curriculum. Everything that had felt like it fit before, now seemed to come with a new awkwardness. Everything that I thought I had understood, needed to be unlearned, and learned again. I think that what I am saying is there is a lot of material in Kenpo that you have not yet received. Looking to fill those perceived gaps elsewhere may not be what is required. Perhaps patience in your current training will fill those gaps for you.

  12. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to michaeledward For This Useful Post:

    Celtic_Crippler (05-06-2007),Dianhsuhe (05-07-2007),thedan (05-08-2007)

  13. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Kennewick, WA
    Posts
    1,010
    Thanks
    143
    Thanked 711 Times in 384 Posts

    Default Re: Crosstraining

    I think you can cross-train BJJ and kenpo without having a problem. The two train distinctly different ranges and the teaching methodologies are different enough that confusion isn't really an issue. I can say from personal experience that the year of BJJ that I took when I was a blue/green belt in kenpo didn't stunt my kenpo growth.

    That said, I'd agree with finding a core art to work from with your standup, and kenpo is a good one, with any luck you've got a good instructor.

    I'm probably one of the poster childs for not waiting until black to cross-train, I don't think it has hurt my kenpo. It may piss off your instructor though, depending on how much of a kenpo-centrist he is, or how much that might impact his wallet.

    Lamont
    Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Kenpo Karate
    www.blackbirdmartialarts.com

    “He, who will not reason, is a bigot; he, who cannot, is a fool; and he, who dares not, is a slave.”
    ~William Drummond

    "This person is as dangerous as an IED."

  14. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Blindside For This Useful Post:

    Celtic_Crippler (05-06-2007),Dianhsuhe (05-07-2007),thedan (05-08-2007)

  15. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    6,026
    Thanks
    1,199
    Thanked 1,520 Times in 909 Posts

    Default Re: Crosstraining

    Lot's of good advice in this thread.

    Ed Parker Jr. quoted his father prior to his death in the forward of the "Encylopedia of Kenpo" as admitting that as much as he had discovered, he had barely scratched the surface. That's something to consider.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

  16. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    1,383
    Thanks
    1,964
    Thanked 473 Times in 341 Posts

    Default Re: Crosstraining

    Do what you feel is right. If you learn some good stuff, share it with us.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Michael Huffman
    1st Black, AKKI
    www.akki.com

  17. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,818
    Thanks
    984
    Thanked 337 Times in 234 Posts

    Default Re: Crosstraining

    I'm going to second SifuRoy on this one. Your biggest problem is probably going to be that the methods of indexing and PNF sequencing are different. This will invariably cause confusion in synaptic/muscle memory.

    I'd also be a little concerned with his credentials, and a lot concerned with his requiring a contract. However, if you have the time and money, and you think you can learn something from this guy, it is your decission. Let us know how it works out.

    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

  18. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to thedan For This Useful Post:

    Dharma_Punk (05-09-2007),John M. La Tourrette (05-14-2007)

  19. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    San Diego area
    Posts
    1,024
    Thanks
    876
    Thanked 501 Times in 283 Posts

    Default Re: Crosstraining

    "I'm going to second SifuRoy on this one. Your biggest problem is probably going to be that the methods of indexing and PNF sequencing are different. This will invariably cause confusion in synaptic/muscle memory"



    I am not sure what the above means but Thedan and Sifuroy are smart folks...I would not cross-train until at least Shodan (1st degree BB). Think of it like building a house, you don't start pouring the foundation and part way through decide it is inadequate and start framing


    You have plenty of time to study other arts and/or perspectives, take your time and build a strong foundation!
    The above is just my opinion.

  20. The Following User Says Thank You to Dianhsuhe For This Useful Post:

    John M. La Tourrette (05-14-2007)

  21. #14
    Dharma_Punk is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    87
    Thanks
    25
    Thanked 19 Times in 12 Posts

    Default Re: Crosstraining

    Concidering all of this information, I've decided to hold off on cross-training until Shodan, for all of the reasons mentioned. Like others pointed out, I have decided that even if the styles didn't conflict with eachother, at the very least it would take away time from my study of Kenpo. Also, more then any other factor, this guy just seems shady and manipulative. Thanks for the advice.
    "Given enough time, any man may master the physical. With enough knowledge, any man may become wise. It is the true warrior who can master both....and surpass the result." - Tien T'ai
    "If you train very hard, you will be very good." - Remy Presas

  22. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Kennewick, WA
    Posts
    1,010
    Thanks
    143
    Thanked 711 Times in 384 Posts

    Default Re: Crosstraining

    Quote Originally Posted by Dharma_Punk View Post
    Also, more then any other factor, this guy just seems shady and manipulative.
    Good reason!!!
    Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Kenpo Karate
    www.blackbirdmartialarts.com

    “He, who will not reason, is a bigot; he, who cannot, is a fool; and he, who dares not, is a slave.”
    ~William Drummond

    "This person is as dangerous as an IED."

  23. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Wichita, Kansas, United States
    Posts
    2,467
    Thanks
    2,019
    Thanked 1,277 Times in 709 Posts

    Default Re: Crosstraining

    Get to a high level of proficiency in Kenpo (well after at LEAST 5-6 years in it) and THEN maybe think about filling in anything you'd like.
    That's my advice.

    IF you want more ground fighting skills...don't go to someone who says they have THAT ..and....xyz.... (those claiming they've already filled ALL holes by mastering all the popular stuff).

    Find someone that excells at what you are looking for. If you want to further develop ground-fighting ...go to a BJJ school and DIG IN.
    But keep your solid grounding in KENPO no matter what.

    Just my .02

    Your Brother
    John
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    ((if you use "FaceBook", look me up there by name))
    "Striving for success without hard work is like trying to harvest where you haven't planted"
    ~ David Bly

  24. The Following User Says Thank You to Brother John For This Useful Post:

    thedan (05-14-2007)

  25. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Sarnia, ON, Canada
    Posts
    7,774
    Thanks
    301
    Thanked 1,263 Times in 801 Posts

    Default Re: Crosstraining

    When crosstraining to help your kenpo always remember why you started the cross training, and don't try and spend too much time looking for new holes or you will miss what is being taught to you.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

  26. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Rob Broad For This Useful Post:

    Brother John (05-12-2007),thedan (05-09-2007)

  27. #18
    FGarza is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Little Rock, Arkansas
    Posts
    98
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 108 Times in 57 Posts

    Smile Re: Crosstraining

    Crosstraining is kind of a difficult subject because there are a lot parts to it.

    Crosstraining is useful when it comes to different kinds of exercises to develop the attributes of speed, power, coordination, stamina, etc.

    Crosstraining in other arts is a different matter.

    One of the beautiful, yet frustrating things about martial arts training, is that as go follow the path you learn things about yourself and others.

    You have to learn patience because it sometimes it seems like you're not getting better, but you are.

    And you also learn that the grass is always greener on the other side. It's easy to jump from style to style. But that really doesn't get you anywhere.

    This art of Kenpo is such a beautiful art that has so much in it. You can take pretty much any technique and do it with different rhythms, different ranges, different power levels, changing the sequence, the targets, etc.

    But also never forget the definition of a technique (a combination of basics for a specific purpose). Work those basics individually, then work the technique.

    Be honest with yourself, it's the first step to being honest with others. What do you think is missing from your training that makes you want to seek another art?

    But also don't be too hard on yourself.

    Kenpo is a life long pursuit, full of trials and tribulations and guys like me who write long posts... Don't hesitate leaning on your Kenpo bros and sis's, unless you weigh over 200 pounds and they weigh under 100...

    So smile, and get back to Kenpo training. Do 20 reps of kicking set, 20 reps of finger set, 20 reps of coordination set, and call me in the morning...

    Good luck...
    Humility is not thinking less of yourself. It's thinking of yourself, less.

  28. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to FGarza For This Useful Post:

    Dharma_Punk (05-12-2007),thedan (05-12-2007)

  29. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,818
    Thanks
    984
    Thanked 337 Times in 234 Posts

    Default Re: Crosstraining

    Quote Originally Posted by FGarza View Post
    Kenpo is a life long pursuit, full of trials and tribulations and guys like me who write long posts...
    Yeah, well, when you have the time, keep writn'- that was pretty good.

    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

  30. #20
    Carol's Avatar
    Carol is offline Deo duce, ferro comitante
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Nashua, NH
    Posts
    2,007
    Thanks
    1,141
    Thanked 976 Times in 569 Posts

    Default Re: Crosstraining

    Quote Originally Posted by FGarza

    Be honest with yourself, it's the first step to being honest with others. What do you think is missing from your training that makes you want to seek another art?
    Being honest is VERY VERY important. However, I do not at all agree with the connection between cross-training and something being "missing" from Kenpo.

    To me it's more a matter of where a student's personal interests are.

    For eample: I think one of the most effective ways to defend one's life is with firearm, so I go to the range with my instructor. There is a big difference between a personal interest in marksmanship and implying that Kenpo is somehow deficient because it does not address principles of marksmanship.

    Cross-training may not make someone a better fighter, and likely won't in the near-term. It can be confusing, draining, and it will likely take away efforts from one's primary art. However, for the folks that have enough of an interest in an art to stick with it, it can offer great experiences, rewards, and even a deeper understanding of one's primary art.

    Because no two Kenpoists are exactly alike, I don't think rules about cross-training can be exactly alike.

    I do think that if a fighter is mature enough to learn how to take someone's life, then they are mature enough to make a decision about their own martial arts path.

  31. The Following User Says Thank You to Carol For This Useful Post:

    thedan (05-14-2007)

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Remove Ads

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)