Kenpo Jump kicks

[KenpoChanger]

Why do we do them?... when?... how?
Sean

[jdinca]

I'll throw out a brief starting point that is in no way comprehensive. If a kick is at it's strongest when coming straight off the hip, then you have two choices when kicking to the head. Either bring the head down to the level of your hips, or elevate your hips to the level of his head. Enter, the jump kick. Having done both, my battered 43 year old body prefers method #1.

[bujuts]

I can't really make this work to my satisfaction, but I've seen my teacher kick while doing what amounts to a very quick jump switch. Take aggressive twins. After the first knife edge kick on the 45 to the attacker's right leg, we engage into that next 45 degree angle (~1:30 or so) on a right lead twist stance, bringing us into a left lead neutral bow via a thrusting knife edge to the left leg. The "jumping" variation here is that the left kick and the right foot (of what will now be a neutral bow) hit at the same time.

In this maneuver, the body really catches no air. The head stays at the same level. Its quick and powerful as all get out - "kick kick" is all you see and there are two buckled legs and a fully engaged bulldog of a man moving through his victim and onto the next.

I just don't get it, LOL. But...jumping? Great for Koreans fighting raiders on horseback, a necessary part of the fighting methods at the time. But, this is 2007, its something worth considering.

Interesting topic, look forward to more.

Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF

[Z-Rex]

I just don't get it, LOL. But...jumping? Great for Koreans fighting raiders on horseback, a necessary part of the fighting methods at the time. But, this is 2007, its something worth considering.

Hey, you never know when you will have to take on a motorcycle gang on Harleys.

[KenpoChanger]

See what I mean Mr. La tourette. LOL

[Dr. Dave in da house]

Hey, you never know when you will have to take on a motorcycle gang on Harleys.

I hate aikido. I tease aikidoka mercilessly, in person and behind their backs. But, being a martial addict, when it's been the only thing around, I've trained in it.

Against a motorcyclist endavoring to run me down, I've used their fey little spinout from a twist foot maneuver, while chopping downward on the wrist. Dropped rider and bike.

Ya just never know when you might use something you think is shyte.

D.

[RDCParker]

I can't really make this work to my satisfaction, but I've seen my teacher kick while doing what amounts to a very quick jump switch. Take aggressive twins. After the first knife edge kick on the 45 to the attacker's right leg, we engage into that next 45 degree angle (~1:30 or so) on a right lead twist stance, bringing us into a left lead neutral bow via a thrusting knife edge to the left leg. The "jumping" variation here is that the left kick and the right foot (of what will now be a neutral bow) hit at the same time.

In this maneuver, the body really catches no air. The head stays at the same level. Its quick and powerful as all get out - "kick kick" is all you see and there are two buckled legs and a fully engaged bulldog of a man moving through his victim and onto the next.

I just don't get it, LOL. But...jumping? Great for Koreans fighting raiders on horseback, a necessary part of the fighting methods at the time. But, this is 2007, its something worth considering.

I actually use something of a 'jump switch' in Attacking Mace. After doing the left block and then right punch, then circling up to grab the arm, I like to do a jump switch and launch a back leg kick to the groin or gut. Like you said, it's not much air, but it's enough, and it's a quick effective way to deliver the kick.

[bujuts]

Hey, you never know when you will have to take on a motorcycle gang on Harleys.

There's only one technique good for this, "Flashing 1911 45ACP".

Like I said, 2007. Heheheh

SB
UKF

[thedan]

See what I mean Mr. La tourette. LOL

I see, but your argument doesn't hold water. You picked one kick that many Kenpoists don't train and use that to bolster a previouse statement (another thread) that Kenpoists don't think kicks exist. If you find value in the jumping kicks, and like to kick more than the average Kenpoist, that's great. Kenpo is adaptable to the individual.

I'm sure the jumping kicks have their uses, but I don't practice them. My training time is valuable, and I choose to practice what is most effective. Any time your feet leave the ground, you give up your base and leave yourself vulnerable. I find them risky and of limmited value.

Dan C

[bujuts]

I see, but your argument doesn't hold water. You picked one kick that many Kenpoists don't train and use that to bolster a previouse statement (another thread) that Kenpoists don't think kicks exist. If you find value in the jumping kicks, and like to kick more than the average Kenpoist, that's great. Kenpo is adaptable to the individual.

I'm sure the jumping kicks have their uses, but I don't practice them. My training time is valuable, and I choose to practice what is most effective. Any time your feet leave the ground, you give up your base and leave yourself vulnerable. I find them risky and of limmited value.

Dan C

Couldn't agree more Dan. Its not that they can't be trained to be street effective, its that to make them truly effective (i.e. usable when your life is on the line, not in sparring, competition, demonstrations etc.) it would require levels of training seldom seen this day and age - Musashi level training, I'd even say, sun to sun.

Finally, I'd ask anyone reading, what does a jumping kick accomplish that a rooted strike cannot?

Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF

[KenpoJuJitsu3]

I see, but your argument doesn't hold water. You picked one kick that many Kenpoists don't train and use that to bolster a previouse statement (another thread) that Kenpoists don't think kicks exist. If you find value in the jumping kicks, and like to kick more than the average Kenpoist, that's great. Kenpo is adaptable to the individual.

I'm sure the jumping kicks have their uses, but I don't practice them. My training time is valuable, and I choose to practice what is most effective. Any time your feet leave the ground, you give up your base and leave yourself vulnerable. I find them risky and of limmited value.

Dan C

Do you practice "Leaping Crane" or "Snaking Talon"?

[KenpoJuJitsu3]

Couldn't agree more Dan. Its not that they can't be trained to be street effective, its that to make them truly effective (i.e. usable when your life is on the line, not in sparring, competition, demonstrations etc.) it would require levels of training seldom seen this day and age - Musashi level training, I'd even say, sun to sun.

Finally, I'd ask anyone reading, what does a jumping kick accomplish that a rooted strike cannot?

Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF

1) Cover ground WITH a foot strike instead of cover ground AND a foot strike

2) Adds Back up Mass to the kick that cannot be gained from the other standard foot manuevers in the same quantitiy (meaning it's not as much back up mass, impulse, force generation, or force transfer)

3) Alters timing and serves different purposes for certain faints (particularly high-lows)

4) Enables quarter-beat timing of foot-foot which is very useful for destroying someone's base by attacking both legs on one count instead of two or more counts.

etc... etc....

[bujuts]

Good day, Mr. Hawkins. Thanks for the response.

1) Cover ground WITH a foot strike instead of cover ground AND a foot strike

I can agree with that I suppose. I personally consider two basic methods of aggressive entry - stepping in or running, either of which can be accentuated by a kick provided the acceleration or structural integrity of the aligned body isn't compromised. Keeping with the idea that a kick is an exaggeration of the natural step, I personally don't like jumping in, kicking other otherwise. Just my take on things.

2) Adds Back up Mass to the kick that cannot be gained from the other standard foot manuevers in the same quantitiy (meaning it's not as much back up mass, impulse, force generation, or force transfer)

This'n I'd disagree with. Effective use of the twist stance (mass over the twisted foot, not behind it as is common practice) will propel the body forward giving the body all the terminal velocity accomplished by running / jumping. The difference here is that the body can disperse imparted forces to the earth, etc.. You know that schpiel.

3) Alters timing and serves different purposes for certain faints (particularly high-lows)

Fair enough, just not my gig. In my mind's eye when I train I put in front of me two Tito Ortiz-types amped up on crack with a knife, USMC intensity and murderous gazes on me and mine (damn near the worse self defense case I can think of). I do this to bring about the frame of mind I need to be in for a life/death encounter, and also to bring about my tactics. Feinting has its place, jumping has its place, but...just not my preference.

4) Enables quarter-beat timing of foot-foot which is very useful for destroying someone's base by attacking both legs on one count instead of two or more counts.

I'm not ready to sign off jump kicks entirely, perhaps I'm skeptical because I see them as a quando when I need only a knife, so to speak. Will open up and give them a shot.

Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF

[KenpoChanger]

Moves you off the line of attack, and no one said jump high.
Sean

[Drew]

Why do we do them?... when?... how?
Sean

On balance, no real good reason. Never after you stop being a kid. As far as I am concerned, there is really "good way" to execute them. It does tremendous damage to your body.

Look at guys like Bill "Superfoot" Wallace (double hip surgery.) And he's not the exception. Students that keep kicking like that share many of the same injuries basketball players do. Myself, I'd rather avoid these kinds of serious injuries than enjoy whatever small benefits you might gain from such kicks. Plus, outside of sport competition, they have a very limited utility.

And, I might add, if kicks in Kenpo are really just extended steps, then these kicks fall well outside of that parameter. Such kicks are not anatomically the same as stepping; it's jumping. Also, if you "aren't supposed to kick above the waist," why would you ever need these kicks?

[JamesB]

Is a 'jump kick' where you actually leave the ground as the kick lands? I was always of the belief that the supporting leg is as important as the kicking leg - it provides the stablity and bracing to make the kick truly effective. If we remove the support for the strike you are relying solely on body mass. Thats ok if you are big/fit/athletic but not much use otherwise.

Personally I have no use for any form of kick that requires me to exert myself too much :-)

[KenpoJuJitsu3]

Good day, Mr. Hawkins. Thanks for the response.



I can agree with that I suppose. I personally consider two basic methods of aggressive entry - stepping in or running, either of which can be accentuated by a kick provided the acceleration or structural integrity of the aligned body isn't compromised. Keeping with the idea that a kick is an exaggeration of the natural step, I personally don't like jumping in, kicking other otherwise. Just my take on things.



This'n I'd disagree with. Effective use of the twist stance (mass over the twisted foot, not behind it as is common practice) will propel the body forward giving the body all the terminal velocity accomplished by running / jumping. The difference here is that the body can disperse imparted forces to the earth, etc.. You know that schpiel.



Fair enough, just not my gig. In my mind's eye when I train I put in front of me two Tito Ortiz-types amped up on crack with a knife, USMC intensity and murderous gazes on me and mine (damn near the worse self defense case I can think of). I do this to bring about the frame of mind I need to be in for a life/death encounter, and also to bring about my tactics. Feinting has its place, jumping has its place, but...just not my preference.



I'm not ready to sign off jump kicks entirely, perhaps I'm skeptical because I see them as a quando when I need only a knife, so to speak. Will open up and give them a shot.

Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF

I think the common misconcpetion is when people hear jumping kicks they think the

1) Jump spinning kick
2) HIGH jump kick (momentum upward rather than toward)
3) And of course the deadly "looking", Flying Kick.

Kenpo "jumping kicks" are noticeably different from the ones I saw when I was in my TKD days.

[KenpoJuJitsu3]

Is a 'jump kick' where you actually leave the ground as the kick lands? I was always of the belief that the supporting leg is as important as the kicking leg - it provides the stablity and bracing to make the kick truly effective. If we remove the support for the strike you are relying solely on body mass. Thats ok if you are big/fit/athletic but not much use otherwise.

Personally I have no use for any form of kick that requires me to exert myself too much :-)

Well if you take into account momentum, impulse and impact a brace may not be needed. Think of ballistic weapons like thrown knives or bullets. All momentum...no brace. That's the idea of many jump kicks. And it's an idea that actually works...when done well.

[KenpoJuJitsu3]

On balance, no real good reason. Never after you stop being a kid. As far as I am concerned, there is really "good way" to execute them. It does tremendous damage to your body.

Look at guys like Bill "Superfoot" Wallace (double hip surgery.) And he's not the exception. Students that keep kicking like that share many of the same injuries basketball players do. Myself, I'd rather avoid these kinds of serious injuries than enjoy whatever small benefits you might gain from such kicks. Plus, outside of sport competition, they have a very limited utility.

And, I might add, if kicks in Kenpo are really just extended steps, then these kicks fall well outside of that parameter. Such kicks are not anatomically the same as stepping; it's jumping. Also, if you "aren't supposed to kick above the waist," why would you ever need these kicks?

You must have a very limited view of jump kicks. See the above on the common misconceptions. Or as Sean put it. "no one said jump high".

It's not "jump up" it's "jump at". And all this exceptions and hip surgery stuff isn't as proliferated as it is advertised by the "anti-kick" proponents. I'd like to see the hard data considering all the TKD guys out there. I've seen and know plenty of "old men" in TKD that haven't had any of the knee and hip surgery stuff that gets tossed around like a cliche and still do the 360's and 540's that the XMA crowd is making popular these days.

High kicks ain't for everyone, but the injury excuse is largely unfounded. Has anyone done studies on the effects to tendons and skeletal tissues from rapid directional change, rebounding and high impact strikes?....you know the hand stuff we do in kenpo all the time? which mirrors what other athletes do in sports that involve throwing....except we execute multiple "throws" in a matter of seconds not minutes. Research it...

[JamesB]

Well if you take into account momentum, impulse and impact a brace may not be needed. Think of ballistic weapons like thrown knives or bullets. All momentum...no brace. That's the idea of many jump kicks. And it's an idea that actually works...when done well.

mmm I think I see what you mean....would the key then be how one obtains the momentum in the first place? The supporting leg is still important in the kick, but is used to propel the body forwards off the ground as effectively as possible, rather than being used as the kick lands? Just a change in timing?