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Thread: The jab.

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    Dharma_Punk is offline
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    Default The jab.

    Alright, so I know the jab (to my albeit limited knowledge) isn't a kenpo move, but I'm quite fond of it. I find it to be way more effective then a back knuckle strike, and am prone to substituting it. This could easily be because of my exposure to kick boxing, and boxing in general, but I love throwing a jab and following with a reverse punch. My instructor discourages me from doing this, so I just throw a back knuckle followed by a reverse punch. Discuss.
    "Given enough time, any man may master the physical. With enough knowledge, any man may become wise. It is the true warrior who can master both....and surpass the result." - Tien T'ai
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    Default Re: The jab.

    if it works for you then I'd say its Kenpo alright ...kenpo's more than just a one-sided (defender's) view of the self-defence techniques and forms.

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    Default Re: The jab.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dharma_Punk View Post
    ... the jab isn't a kenpo move, but I'm quite fond of it. I find it to be way more effective then a back knuckle strike, ... This could easily be because of my exposure to kick boxing, and boxing in general, but I love throwing a jab and following with a reverse punch. My instructor discourages me from doing this, ...
    Kenpo does jab, but it isn't the boxers jab you are used to. The boxer s' stance, footwork, and body structure are different than ours. They don't have to worry about low strikes and kicks, so they shrug their shoulders up and tuck their chin to reduce the target area and protect the head. We worry about protecting a lot more, as well as useing a lot more weapons. So, our posture does not support the boxers reverse punch, nor his jab. Our jab is done more in a vertical or diamond fist.

    Further, the boxer rolls forward and loads his front foot in a jab. That makes his strike quick and powerful, but leaves us open to being manipulated and pulled off ballance.

    If mixing the two works for you, go with it. But you should talk with your instructor and be aware of the pitfalls ands disadvantages so you can be ready to deal with them. It'll probably work most of the time, since most fights are a cacophony of missed opportunities rather than a symphony of moves. But, you might just run into the one guy that can sing a better tune.

    Dan (what the hell is that racket) C
    Last edited by thedan; 04-21-2007 at 05:33 PM. Reason: just to say the "C" is for "Cacaphonix", the Bard!
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    Default Re: The jab.

    Muppet news flash!... its a Kenpo move.
    sean

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    Default Re: The jab.

    American Kenpo has the jab! SGM Parker was a boxing fan and reportedly once said if he could train Mohammed Ali, he could teach him how to hit a lot harder.
    The jab is not meant to be a power move per se, but like the guys posting above me, I agree that it can be.
    Last edited by Mikael151; 04-22-2007 at 07:30 PM. Reason: Just had to, lol.
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    Dharma_Punk is offline
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    Default Re: The jab.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael151 View Post
    ...The jab is not meant to be a power move per se, but like the guys posting above me, I agree that it can be.
    The jab is definitely not a power move, although done correctly it can certainly knock someone out. I more use it to set someone up for my reverse punch or other move. It doesn't even have to connect. Most people will try and block the jab, and can't recover in time to stop a secondary attack. Granted, a back fist can be used in this way, but I don't find it to be as powerful, and the back of the hand is more prone to damage, in my opinion.
    "Given enough time, any man may master the physical. With enough knowledge, any man may become wise. It is the true warrior who can master both....and surpass the result." - Tien T'ai
    "If you train very hard, you will be very good." - Remy Presas

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    Default Re: The jab.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dharma_Punk View Post
    ... Most people will try and block the jab, and can't recover in time to stop a secondary attack. Granted, a back fist can be used in this way, but I don't find it to be as powerful, and the back of the hand is more prone to damage, ...
    "Blocking" gets you into trouble, any how. "Receiving" a punch, as in a block that follows the jab back after you've moved the target, is more effective.

    Striking with the back of the fist in a back knuckle/backfist strike is a no-no. The wrist should bend back and the two large knuckles should lead and strike the target. Even in systems that don't bend the wrist back, the angle of incidence at contact should be such that the knuckles lead and strike, not the back of the hand. You are correct, those carpals and meta carpals are easily dammaged if they strike a hard target, so must be protected. And the back knuckle strike is a deceptively powerful strike. Both the jab and the back knuckle strikes have their place. No need to pick one over the other, though you may have a preference, which is ok.

    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

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    Default Re: The jab.

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    ...Striking with the back of the fist in a back knuckle/backfist strike is a no-no...
    I agree, but accidents are inevitable. It's very easy to make a mistake like this in the heat of combat and slam the back of your hand right into something hard, I think.
    "Given enough time, any man may master the physical. With enough knowledge, any man may become wise. It is the true warrior who can master both....and surpass the result." - Tien T'ai
    "If you train very hard, you will be very good." - Remy Presas

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    Default Re: The jab.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dharma_Punk View Post
    I agree, but accidents are inevitable. It's very easy to make a mistake like this in the heat of combat and slam the back of your hand right into something hard, I think.
    Isn't the initial punch in all the sparring drills a back knuckle?
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

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    Default Re: The jab.

    Quote Originally Posted by parkerkarate View Post
    Isn't the initial punch in all the sparring drills a back knuckle?
    I'm not sure I follow?
    "Given enough time, any man may master the physical. With enough knowledge, any man may become wise. It is the true warrior who can master both....and surpass the result." - Tien T'ai
    "If you train very hard, you will be very good." - Remy Presas

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    Default Re: The jab.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dharma_Punk View Post
    I'm not sure I follow?
    Ok....you and I are sparring. And you want to check my hand. Will you jab or will you back knuckle? Why? Now you and I are sparring in class....forget checking my hand. Will you jab me in the face or will you back knuckle to the side of the head.

    Now we are on the street....will you jab me in the face and tare me apart LOL or will you back knuckle me in the head?

    Get my drift now?
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


    "Praying Mantis, very good. . . For catching bugs." --Jackie Chan

    "A horse stance is great for taking a dump" --Jet Li

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    Default Re: The jab.

    Quote Originally Posted by parkerkarate View Post
    Now we are on the street....will you jab me in the face and tare me apart LOL or will you back knuckle me in the head?

    Get my drift now?
    Yes, actually, I think I do. Each has its application, right?
    "Given enough time, any man may master the physical. With enough knowledge, any man may become wise. It is the true warrior who can master both....and surpass the result." - Tien T'ai
    "If you train very hard, you will be very good." - Remy Presas

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    Default Re: The jab.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dharma_Punk View Post
    Yes, actually, I think I do. Each has its application, right?
    Now we are speaking the same language LOL
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

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    Default Re: The jab.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dharma_Punk View Post
    ... Each has its application, right?
    Not only that, but consider that there are several types of back knuckle strikes, each with its' own applications. It can whip, lock and strike, roll over a check, thrust- vertically, horizontally, diagonally- launched forward, or to the rear from a twist- pretty versatile and deceptive strike.

    The jab is very useful, but mostly (not only) right up center. The back knuckle can hit from any angle or direction. If I had to choose one, I'd take the back knuckle. But that is my preference. Your fighting style may varry, and so will your preference.

    Dan C
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    Default Re: The jab.

    Ever watch fencing at the Olympics? Although these Olympians know many different tricks/feints and moves, it's the simplest strikes that score the most often. I believe this is true in karate tournaments also, while people do sometimes score on spin kicks and what not, majority of scores are a simple punch or straight kick.

    The Jab is the simplest of punches. But also versatile, if you are always throwing your jab the same way, you are not taking advantages of all it has to offer.

    Jabs can be lightning quick, they can be thrown for more power. They can be used with good footwork to advance on your opponent, or as part of retreating footwork to help buy some time and space. Jabs can be thrown at different heights, instead of always head hunting. Jabs can help one control the distance, set timing and set up follow up strikes.

    I've read stories about trainers tying a fighters right arm to their side, and having them practice nothing but jabs for hours.

    It's just another fighting tool, one that happens to be simple but effective.

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    Default Re: The jab.

    The jab travels on a straight path, the back knuckle on an elliptical path. Ineffective back knuckle strikes are created when the elbow is elevated, shortening the ellipse to a circular motion fueld only by the tricep. This is anatomically weak.

    Strike Set teaches us to drop the elbow and elongate the circle such that we have proper anatomical alignment upon impact. If aligned correctly, the latissimus and the legs should be taking the brunt of the impact, not the tricep. Finally, the back knuckle strike provides us the capacity to attack width as well as depth, wherease the jab works only depth. Its just another tool in the box, no more or less effective than the jab provided its used and fueled properly.

    Good discussion.

    Steven Brown
    UKF

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    Default Re: The jab.

    Quote Originally Posted by parkerkarate View Post
    Isn't the initial punch in all the sparring drills a back knuckle?
    Yep.
    Old school.
    But it shouldn't be.

    Why not?
    Too easy to see. No zero perception. no economy of motion.

    Now the kenpo jab, my way, has economy of motion, has zero perception, and it cannot be seen when timed correctly with hot rocks, etc.

    Many Master Keys needed to make it work right. Awareness is one of those Master Keys.
    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: The jab.

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    Yep.
    Old school.
    But it shouldn't be.

    Why not?
    Too easy to see. No zero perception. no economy of motion.

    Now the kenpo jab, my way, has economy of motion, has zero perception, and it cannot be seen when timed correctly with hot rocks, etc.

    Many Master Keys needed to make it work right. Awareness is one of those Master Keys.
    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    EXACTLY!

    A good jab can WIN a fight.

    Muhammad Ali really only used two moves: the left jab and the right cross, and it worked for him.
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
    (Phillipians 4:13)


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    Default Re: The jab.

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    ...Now the kenpo jab, my way, has economy of motion, has zero perception, and it cannot be seen when timed correctly with hot rocks, etc...
    What exactly is your way of doing it?
    "Given enough time, any man may master the physical. With enough knowledge, any man may become wise. It is the true warrior who can master both....and surpass the result." - Tien T'ai
    "If you train very hard, you will be very good." - Remy Presas

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    Default Re: The jab.

    There's no jab in Kenpo!?!?!?! I didn't get that memo!
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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