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Thread: the neutral bow stance and its dimensions

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    50%grandmaster is offline
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    Question the neutral bow stance and its dimensions

    Does any person of this Kenpo Talk Forum computer group know if the book titled Infinite Insights Into Kenpo, Volume 2, Physical Analyzation 1, has it printed that the neutral bow stance in Ed Parker's kenpo can have its height, width, and depth adjusted by the person standing in that stance?

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    Default Re: the neutral bow stance and its dimensions

    Yes, it does. From page 55 of that volume, titled, "Finding the Proper Dimensions:

    "As I have previously stressed...the Art must be made to fit the individual...Therefore, the WIDTH, DEPTH and HEIGHT of a stance must correpond with the dimensions of the individual."

    This comment begins the section on stances, as I believe you know. However, there's often a misunderstanding about what was meant here--at times, people get the idea that you can do a given stance however you like.

    Not at all; the point, I think, is that you shouldn't map out your stances in terms of feet and inches or indeed ANY set, fixed distance--but you should, and this section in fact insists, figure out the proper dimensions of a stance in terms of your own body.

    That's why the section doesn't give feet and inches, and insists that each stance is unique--but it also insists that you must maintain proper toe-heel alignment, angles of the knees, etc. It doesn't show you length--it shows you how to get more or less the proper height, width and depth for your stance. In effect, Parker's trying to show people how to construct their own yardsticks, using their own body as a reference, rather than using some ideal tape measure.

    There are further small modifications beyond that. I open out a neutral bow or horse stance a little wider, because my legs are disproportionately long; I might tell a student with bad ankles to open out a little and relax the "toe-in," a bit.

    Anyway, the "height, width and depth," comment comes at the start of the section on stances: the subsequent breakdowns demonstrate proper alignment, angles, separation of feet, etc., for the various stances.

    Was that what you wanted to know?

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    Smile Re: the neutral bow stance and its dimensions

    Quote Originally Posted by 50%grandmaster
    Does any person of this Kenpo Talk Forum computer group know if the book titled Infinite Insights Into Kenpo, Volume 2, Physical Analyzation 1, has it printed that the neutral bow stance in Ed Parker's kenpo can have its height, width, and depth adjusted by the person standing in that stance?
    Hi am I reading this different then Robert?

    I believe you will find an answer to your question further on in the book as in the pages relating to the Bow and Arrow stance, I guess if you take what Robert said and over-lay it on the Bow and Arrow stance it might work.

    I guess I need more information before I can get into it much. I am just reading pages of a book and am not a practioner of AK, But I do, do Kempo.

    Regards, Gary

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    Default Re: the neutral bow stance and its dimensions

    Quote Originally Posted by rmcr
    Yes, it does. From page 55 of that volume, titled, "Finding the Proper Dimensions:

    "As I have previously stressed...the Art must be made to fit the individual...Therefore, the WIDTH, DEPTH and HEIGHT of a stance must correpond with the dimensions of the individual."

    This comment begins the section on stances, as I believe you know. However, there's often a misunderstanding about what was meant here--at times, people get the idea that you can do a given stance however you like.

    Not at all; the point, I think, is that you shouldn't map out your stances in terms of feet and inches or indeed ANY set, fixed distance--but you should, and this section in fact insists, figure out the proper dimensions of a stance in terms of your own body.
    I think that Robert's exactly right in this. The only proper guage for what are the correct dimensions of YOUR Neutral Bow are the dimensions of your body itself. That's what tayloring of the basics really means to me, NOT: "Do what thou wilt"....but, here's how to fit it to YOUR body given your body's proportions.

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    Default Re: the neutral bow stance and its dimensions

    The anatomical measures for a neutral bow are as follows:

    width: Simply put the toe heel line. your stance should not be any wider than your feet properly aligned on your toe heel line. Your feet should be parallel pointing to the 45 degree.

    depth: Knee heel distance. While in a neutral bow with proper toe heel line, drop your back knee down to the ground. Kneeling like this your knee should be even with the back of your front heel.

    height: Knees slightly bent, keeping weight evenly disributed, chest angling more or less towards the 45 degree.


    This is how it was taught to me, keep in mind that I study EPAk, other branches of kenpo may be different
    Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

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    Default Re: the neutral bow stance and its dimensions

    good notes d-j
    Another, much more 'general' guide:
    When you are at the proper height you won't be able to look straight down and view your own front toes while remaining upright.
    Not as exact as the standard measures you mentioned.


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    Default Re: the neutral bow stance and its dimensions

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John
    good notes d-j
    Another, much more 'general' guide:
    When you are at the proper height you won't be able to look straight down and view your own front toes while remaining upright.
    Not as exact as the standard measures you mentioned.


    Your Brother
    John
    LOL, I wonder how fat men will take this???

    Regards, Gary

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    Default Re: the neutral bow stance and its dimensions

    It won't be their toes they'll worry about not seeing, if you get my drift.

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    Default Re: the neutral bow stance and its dimensions

    Quote Originally Posted by rmcr
    It won't be their toes they'll worry about not seeing, if you get my drift.

    OK.....I think that was the funniest thing I've ever seen you write.
    Thanks, needed that this morning.

    Someone who's belly is THAT pendulous is lucky to get much knee bend and hold it for very long at all. They need to be more worried about movin those feet on a bike or Nordic Track.

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    Default Re: the neutral bow stance and its dimensions

    what i've been shown is to use doublejay's rules as a starting point, then adjust from there. assume the position and have somebody begin pushing on your upper chest, if you are not stable and do not feel the force going right through you into the ground, you should probably adjust.

    repeat this again, but now with a pulling action and continue to adjust. this way you can feel where the stance belongs. personally, i have to come a little wider than the toe-heel line by about 2 inches.

    same exercise can be done for all stances, except the force needs to be applied to the correct area for which the stance is designed. for example, a forward bow should have the force applied to the hips.

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    Default Re: the neutral bow stance and its dimensions

    Sorry, but if you're a couple inches off toe-heel, you're open; you will have trouble moving back and forth; and you cannot possibly be rooted with regard to a center-line push. I'd also recommend not pushing the hips to check; this will tend, I think, to secure even a bad stance.

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    Default Re: the neutral bow stance and its dimensions

    no need to be sorry, your body type may not require it.... but you may want to run it by clyde next time you see him, since he was the one who corrected me.

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    Default Re: the neutral bow stance and its dimensions

    I honestly mean you NO disrespect Pete... but this minor modification I've only seen suggested to those people that we were talking about a bit ago...
    the ones who's bellies won't let them see their own.............

    knees.

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    Default Re: the neutral bow stance and its dimensions

    Well, if I'm wrong it'll only be the 14th time this week--but I doubt Clyde told you to break toe-heel alignment on a regular basis. I'll ask, and learn if necessary.

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    Default Re: the neutral bow stance and its dimensions

    Quote Originally Posted by pete
    no need to be sorry, your body type may not require it.... but you may want to run it by clyde next time you see him, since he was the one who corrected me.
    A toe-heel line is simply a reference point for beginners. I can't tell you how many students cross their feet in the opposite direction when first learning a switch, that's usually when we break out the staff, put it on the ground, and give them a physical line for them to see and feel instead of just visualizing. Once you've established something close you go from there.

    Thanks for remembering Pete, I'm glad what I have to say isn't just falling on deaf mutes LOL.

    Have a great Kenpo day

    Clyde

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    Default Re: the neutral bow stance and its dimensions

    What are some of the factors that might require a wider neutral bow? (Can I assume that going narrower would be a no-no?)

    Thanks,
    MH
    Man has only those rights he can defend.

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    Smile Re: the neutral bow stance and its dimensions

    Quote Originally Posted by MHeeler
    What are some of the factors that might require a wider neutral bow? (Can I assume that going narrower would be a no-no?)

    Thanks,
    MH
    Hi I am not a Kenpo practioner, I am a Kempo practioner and do other styles and systems.

    I think you are really getting pretty anal when you try to stick this stance and any other for that matter into a box that has no lee way. We are not a fixed and grounded object holding up a tower.
    We are on terrain that varies if not from dojo to dojo but from dojo to street or field or wet and muddy vs dry and soft.

    If you are working on mats that are soft and footing is not so good it would be different than working on the wooden floor where nothing is moving.

    But it does give someone room to say I or we do this so we have changed it and inovated it and therefore it is new and we are different (if you are that anal).
    To over anal-yize or analysis and we all know who gave us this word right? Robert pulls the guy (freud) like a dagger in his statements or at least used to.

    There is no disrespect ment in this post so don't take it like that, please and don't go off on one of the tangents I have seen in prior posts. Thank you.

    Regards, Gary

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    Default Re: the neutral bow stance and its dimensions

    I think you are really getting pretty anal when you try to stick this stance and any other for that matter into a box that has no lee way. We are not a fixed and grounded object holding up a tower.
    I'm not sure how I stuck anything anywhere. I simply asked a question out of a desire to learn something.

    If you are working on mats that are soft and footing is not so good it would be different than working on the wooden floor where nothing is moving.
    So, is this an answer to my question? Soft mats and poor footing. Sounds reasonable. Thanks for the input.

    Are there any other reasons, either of external environment, or of one's own physical makeup?

    Thanks,
    MH
    Man has only those rights he can defend.

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    Smile Re: the neutral bow stance and its dimensions

    Hi MHeeler,

    I should not have used the word "you" quite so loosly. I remember when in the Marine Corps if we (recruits) used the word "you" to a drill instructor they felt that we were using the word ewe (female sheep). Then they had the right to beat on us for it (sick). They would use their swagger stick (which phased out shortly after this time periord), sword in scabbard (sometimes not), screwdriver (on the range) rifle etc. you get the idea. Anything but the empty hand (they could injure themselves).
    Wait I did get hit in the stomach repeatedly one time for something, but that was towards the end of bootcamp and I was not hurt in the slightest. I keep laughing because this little DI could not hurt me and it was hilarious. It only stopped when the senior DI walked in and shorty had to quit.


    Back to YOU. According to Webster it is sort of a catch all as in one, anyone, everyone, you never can tell. So I will not make that error again. If in fact it was an error, but I think you got my drift.

    PS. I have asked in the past not to break up something if you are going to quote. I think it is bad manners. It also beaks up my Gibbering as Todd say's.
    Yes of course, size, disabilities and quite a few things go into why we do what we do. But I thought that had been covered pretty throughly.

    Regards, Gary

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    Default Re: the neutral bow stance and its dimensions

    Ummm, considering the fact that you quoted me when posting, I think I'm more than justified in replying as if you were talking to me. Furthermore, given the general tone of your prior post (full of anal references), I'd like to politely request that you not lecture me on manners.

    As far as quoting in sections, I personally think it helps to separate thought-streams. I've not had any other complaints regarding this, and I haven't read about anyone else bringing this up. If you personally don't like this, then I will try to remember not to do so with your posts.

    In any case, I don't see that anything has been covered with any real sense of thoroughness, at least in this thread. I was asking my original question (what are some factors requiring a modification of the standard neutral bow?) subsequent to Kenpoprofessor's statement that "A toe-heel line is simply a reference point for beginners." I'm still hoping to get some good replies on this.

    MH
    Man has only those rights he can defend.

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